2 layer or 3 layer suit

[Speed Sport Engineering]

I think my current driving suit is a 3 layer nomex suit. I cant tell...its old and i dont see any way to identify it. I always figured i would get another 3 layer, but after talking to Simpson they said they hardly sell 3 layer suits to road racers. I always wear nomex underwear....so what are most people wearing for layers? I cant tell how my suit from 1995 compares to current nomex fabrics.

[protoform]

I purchased a 3 layer suit it was a $500.00 model and very good. but the fabric was stiff, and it felt like I was wearing a snowmobile suit. I only used the suit 1 time. I race a protoform P-3 Jim Kearney's old car and I am 200 lbs. The first suit took up a lot of room . I purchased a very nice used suit that was used for 1 stint in the rolex 24 hour race. from what I understand some of those drivers have a new suit for each time they are in the car. It is a 3 layer suit and I do also wear underwear. It is so soft and supple and feels like a 1 layer in compairison to the the previous 3 layer suit. So i think it depends on the brand more than how many layers there are. I also had a 96 speedsport Vee and that car had a lot more room . I could wear the stiff or the supple suit with no problems. The supple suit also breaths a lot better.I guess I am saying you get what you pay for. The more you spend on the suit the more confortible it is generally speaking. I went with the 3 layer because I wanted the most protection I could get Peter E. Cheney #06

[Josh Pitt]

# layers are not what you want to look at.
look at the fire protection rating that each suit has to offer.

[kea]

I rarely sell 3 layer suits anymore. And for underwear, Carbon-X material which breathe better than nomex and will take 1000 degrees more heat.
For Design 500 or Lady Eagle, 2 layer suits, we normally sell them with a Nomex outer and Carbon-X inner layer of material.
Custom sized of course.

[Daryl DeArman]

Apples and oranges.

If all 3 layers are the same material (fabric, weight and weave) then the 3 layer will always offer more protection and be heavier.

Many of the SFI only rated suits are made of the same materials and what you end up with is a heavier, bulkier suit when comparing 2 vs. 3.

However, many of the FIA rated suits are manufactured to meet the same standard and when a manufacturer introduces a 3rd layer you can get a lighter, more comfortable suit. You also end up with two "layers" of air instead of one, which is also adding thermal protection.

In a nutshell with SFI you most likely will get a heavier, bulkier, hotter suit with 3 layers offering you more protection. With FIA you will be paying more for the same protection as a 2 layer in a lighter more comfortable suit.

I have a 3 layer OMP and it is infinitely more comfortable than my OLD 3 layer Simpson suit.

[a. pettipas]

I concur with above... my FIA 3-layer Sparco X-Light 4 (I think that's what it's called) literally feels at least 1/2 the thickness of my old SFI 2-layer Leaf suit and the difference in comfort, breathability etc. is quite substantial... but as Daryl says, the pricing of high-end Sparco, OMP, Alpinestars is pretty dear. With either suit I wear CarbonX underwear, won't even consider Nomex when the time comes to replace them.

[kea]

When Carbon-X is used as a layer for a suit, the standard SFI/5, 2 layer suit, get lighter yet. Carbon-X material does more, with less weight/bulk.
When our first Design 500 suit came in many years ago, with a Nomex outer and a Carbon-X inner layer, to me it felt like a 1-1/2 layer (heavier than 1, lighter than 2) suit would, if such a thing existed.

[LenFC11]

+1 on the Sparco x-lite

[dereklola]

With either suit I wear CarbonX underwear, won't even consider Nomex when the time comes to replace them.

No problem with that choice - but I still want to understand why pro-drivers (F1, ALMS, Rolex etc) all still seem to wear Nomex not CarbonX. I just have this sneaky feeling I'm missing something. Can anyone enlighten me?

[a. pettipas]

A slight diversion from the topic, though certainly relative... Options for CarbonX underwear don't seem to be all that prevalent. The stuff I wear currently is by Ringers (the mechanic's gloves people) and it's been great but apparently has been discontinued. Oakley has a CarbonX line but I've heard the quality is poor and it doesn't last, also pricey - bad combination! Checking out Keith's (kea) site, he has a line of Design 500 CarbonX undies... I have no doubt the quality is top-class but how about pricing (long sleeve top, bottom, socks)? If it's against protocol to answer in this section of the forum then please PM me Keith but I figure other AS users browsing this thread might find info on the Design 500 stuff useful.

[iamuwere]

I have the Simpson carbonx set. It is held up well through four years now. I did have to replace the socks after after two years due to wear on the heel. Otherwise they have held up quite well with no issues on wear and no shrinkage.

[Daryl DeArman]

No problem with that choice - but I still want to understand why pro-drivers (F1, ALMS, Rolex etc) all still seem to wear Nomex not CarbonX. I just have this sneaky feeling I'm missing something. Can anyone enlighten me?

Perhaps they have deals with suit manufacturers and it would be a conflict/breach to wear a competing manufacturers' safety apparel. Not every suit manufacturer carries Carbon-X underwear. Sparco for example, does not. They have Nomex or Carmyth. Sparco Carmyth is at least twice the cost of CarbonX.

[kea]

Derek,
With Nomex underwear available in white, you can embroider sponsors all over it, just like their suits. Carbon-X only comes in black. You will notice, they all wear Nomex underwear in white, even though it has/was available in other colors.

The US made Carbon-X underwear that I sell, from Design 500 and Lady Eagle Safetywear, can be ordered in custom sizes. I've had a few who needed longer than standard arms or legs.

2012 prices for std. size mock turtle neck tops or long leg bottoms in Carbon-X are $100.00 each. Tee's or breifs, $95.00 @, Sports bra $80.00, Pro-Tek tank top w/bra $110.00, Pro-Tek sports shorts, $95.00, head socks, single or twin eye opening $60.00.
Knit Carbon-X socks are not made at Design 500, some knitting-mill I assume. They are $40.00 for the pair.

[thomschoon]

Derek,
With Nomex underwear available in white, you can embroider sponsors all over it, just like their suits. Carbon-X only comes in black. You will notice, they all wear Nomex underwear in white, even though it has/was available in other colors.

The US made Carbon-X underwear that I sell, from Design 500 and Lady Eagle Safetywear, can be ordered in custom sizes. I've had a few who needed longer than standard arms or legs.

2012 prices for std. size mock turtle neck tops or long leg bottoms in Carbon-X are $100.00 each. Tee's or breifs, $95.00 @, Sports bra $80.00, Pro-Tek tank top w/bra $110.00, Pro-Tek sports shorts, $95.00, head socks, single or twin eye opening $60.00.
Knit Carbon-X socks are not made at Design 500, some knitting-mill I assume. They are $40.00 for the pair.

I bought the Design 500 Carbon X when I got my suit, a very good investment as it is top quality and is actually comfortable, way better then the Sparco & OMP it replaced, the socks are also the best i ever had, well made and keep their shape, bought a couple more pairs just in case. If I had gotten the Carbon x underwear first i probaly would have waited on a new suit, but between the Design 500 underwear and suit I have never been more comfortable on hot & humid days as they breath, well worth the money and less chance of heat exhaustion or worse in my graying years.

[TPoppy]

[FONT=Arial]There is often misunderstanding when talking about driving suits and what a driver specifically needs.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial] [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]The amount of layers of a suits construction is not important. It’s the [/FONT][FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3]Thermal Protective Performance (TPP)[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial] Rating of the suits materials as they are sandwiched together. The higher the TPP rating, the more time a person can be exposed to a heat source before a getting a second degree burn. SFI Tests and rates each Race Wear manufactures materials they use and how the test out as they are sandwiched together. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial] [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]Many Racing Sanctioning bodies regulate the minimum of TPP a suit should be, check your rules. If your racing series or track doesn’t specify a minimum TPP you should use, use the highest TPP value you can be comfortable and preform safely in and/or afford. The TPP of a suit has nothing to do with Underwear. The suit is rated on its own. Wearing Fire Resistant under which also has its own TPP value increases your time of exposure and increases your chance of not getting burned. It is smart to wear FR Underwear. Remember you are protecting your skin from heat. The heat from your suit will heat up whatever you are wearing underneath it. FR Underwear adds extra protection. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial] [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]Either wear Fire Resistant Underwear, or nothing under your suit. If you wear a polyester sport shirt or anything flammable, or with metal or plastic (bra’s too) the heat from the fire and suit will melt whatever you are wearing to your body.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial] [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]I remember seeing a Quarter Midget suit that was two layer….that was their sanctioning body requirement, they had no SFI rating requirement. The suit was a polyester go kart suit with a t-shirt sewn in it. Think about this, just because it two or three layer, it doesn’t mean your safer. It’s the quality of materials used to make the sandwich and what that TPP Value ends up. Please see the links below and it will give you more info on the rating system.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial] [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]This link helps explain more if you are interested:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]http://www.sfifoundation.com/driversuit.html[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial] [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial] [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]SFI Suit Spec[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]http://www.sfifoundation.com/Spec_3.2A_112901.pdf[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial] [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial] [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]2.3 Multiple Layers: Driver suit material can be constructed of a single layer or[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]multiple layers of fabric. A suit's rating is based on the thermal protection[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]capability of the material regardless of the number of layers. The use of[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]underclothing is not considered in the rating of the suit.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]Terri Popielarz[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]PXP Racewear[/FONT]

[TPoppy]

[FONT=Arial]There is often misunderstanding when talking about driving suits and what a driver specifically needs.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]The amount of layers of a suits construction is not important. It’s the [/FONT][FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3]Thermal Protective Performance (TPP)[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial] Rating of the suits materials as they are sandwiched together. The higher the TPP rating, the more time a person can be exposed to a heat source before a getting a second degree burn. SFI Tests and rates each Race Wear manufactures materials they use and how the test out as they are sandwiched together. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]Many Racing Sanctioning bodies regulate the minimum of TPP a suit should be, check your rules. If your racing series or track doesn’t specify a minimum TPP you should use, use the highest TPP value you can be comfortable and preform safely in and/or afford. The TPP of a suit has nothing to do with Underwear. The suit is rated on its own. Wearing Fire Resistant under which also has its own TPP value increases your time of exposure and increases your chance of not getting burned. It is smart to wear FR Underwear. Remember you are protecting your skin from heat. The heat from your suit will heat up whatever you are wearing underneath it. FR Underwear adds extra protection. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]Either wear Fire Resistant Underwear, or nothing under your suit. If you wear a polyester sport shirt or anything flammable, or with metal or plastic (bra’s too) the heat from the fire and suit will melt whatever you are wearing to your body.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]I remember seeing a Quarter Midget suit that was two layer….that was their sanctioning body requirement, they had no SFI rating requirement. The suit was a polyester go kart suit with a t-shirt sewn in it. Think about this, just because it two or three layer, it doesn’t mean your safer. It’s the quality of materials used to make the sandwich and what that TPP Value ends up. Please see the links below and it will give you more info on the rating system.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]This link helps explain more if you are interested:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]http://www.sfifoundation.com/driversuit.html[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial]SFI Suit Spec[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]http://www.sfifoundation.com/Spec_3.2A_112901.pdf[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial]2.3 Multiple Layers: Driver suit material can be constructed of a single layer or[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]multiple layers of fabric. A suit's rating is based on the thermal protection[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]capability of the material regardless of the number of layers. The use of[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]underclothing is not considered in the rating of the suit.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]Terri Popielarz[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]PXP Racewear[/FONT]

[DMac]

I would recommend a FIA rated suit. Not only does it exceed the SFI /5 rating, it can also be used in every road race series - amateur and professional.

[stephen wilson]

The problem is most manufacturers don't give TPP numbers, so you don't know if the "just met" the rating spec. , or greatly exceeded it.

[Daryl DeArman]

I would recommend a FIA rated suit. Not only does it exceed the SFI /5 rating, it can also be used in every road race series - amateur and professional.

No, it doesn't exceed SFI3.2A/5 rating. It's different; different test procedures different standards. There is a HUGE range of protection available in SFI3.2A/5 rated suits. A suit that far exceeds the minimum TPP value but doesn't meet the /10 standards can provide almost TWICE the TPP protection that the FIA spec suit does.

The problem is most manufacturers don't give TPP numbers, so you don't know if the "just met" the rating spec. , or greatly exceeded it.

Exactly ^^^

The SFI has a series of 3.2A standards "/1", "/3" "/5", "/10","/15" and "/20"
You know the highest standard that the manufacturer claims that suit would pass if it was actually subjected to the destructive test.

FIA has one standard which approximates a similar level of protection as the SFI3.2A/5: it's a pass/fail

Many manufacturers won't even disclose what the multiple layers are. Some that do only state they are Nomex, or PBI/Kevlar, NomexIII or whatever. Even then just because two materials are both described as the same thing if they don't tell you the weight of the material you have no idea. Just because two t-shirts are both 100% cotton doesn't mean their thickness/quality is anywhere near the same. You also have some FIA suits described as 3 layer suits that aren't 3 layers throughout the entire suit.

[Steve Demeter]

If the manufacturer is up front about their product they will give you the TPP. Particularly if their product is at the high end say of SFI 3.5. Bob Booth of Bell Motorsports was always more than willing to discuss construction and TPP rating when I asked.

[Daryl DeArman]

If the manufacturer is up front about their product they will give you the TPP. Particularly if their product is at the high end say of SFI 3.5. Bob Booth of Bell Motorsports was always more than willing to discuss construction and TPP rating when I asked.

I experienced the same when I was selling both Bell Motorsports and Simpson suits.

It's usually an issue when the guy selling you the suit is reading from a manufacturers' marketing material...at least some of them are honest enough to tell you "hmmm? I don't know, nobody every asked me that before "

[romoman]

I just did a safety seminar at PRI put on by the Stand21 foundation. Dr. Terry Trammell did a presenation about wearing nomex (or carbonx) underwear with your suit. Interestingly, it roughly doubles your time before you get burnt (to 20 seconds). No reason not to wear it!

Also, as an interesting aside - the burns that Simona de Silvestro had on her hands were not from the fire - they were from the sweat in her gloves turning to steam when she went to remove the steering wheel!

[Keith9x]

Also, as an interesting aside - the burns that Simona de Silvestro had on her hands were not from the fire - they were from the sweat in her gloves turning to steam when she went to remove the steering wheel!

Steam is also why they quit pouring water on drivers to cool them off during pit stops

[flat tappet]

Thanks to Marshall and Ed's foresight, my entire F500 is made of Nomex. Nomex fuel cells,Nomex body,Nomex frame and cage,Nomex wheels! Because Red Devils are known to have a more copious cockpit than some other F500's, they even installed a Nomex Barco lounger with beverage holder.

Since there is nothing to burn on the car(I run linseed oil,exclusively for fuel), I wear a half layer, wide lapeled pin stripe lounge suit left over from Saturday Night Fever...and it is very spacious.....LOL.

[a. pettipas]

You've been burning something.

[flat tappet]

You've been burning something.

It's an american thing........