New Pistons and Barrels!
Whats the story on getting new pistons and barrels sets?
I have talked to some of the engine builders and they say they do not have any to sell to regular customers they will be keeping them for their high priority customers!
Does anyone know how an "average joe" goes about getting some new parts! Will there be a shipment of new barrels??
Any insight would be helpfull?
Kapelke Tuned
RF93 Van Diemen FF1600
SR Racing ........." Kobelschmidt" Pistons etc..dunno if they still have them tho?Part #111-198-057
Sorry, none left here...
Jim
The Committee has contacted Kolbenschmidt and they have only pistons (and rings) in stock at this time (~300 or so IIRC). We have also contacted all known engine builders and a few have indicated a desire to order some of these pistons. It did not come up for discussion in the last conference call, so I'm not sure of the current status. If anyone (individual or business) would LIKE to order pistons, please contact one of the Committee members ASAP and we'll put you on the list.
The cylinders are not available from KS at this time. They indicated "after the first of the year". We have not yet tried to actually order any cylinders, but don't yet have any indication that they will not be available in the near future.
Unfortunately, the customs duties and shipping makes it somewhat difficult to put together an order and it also requires commitments (pay up front) from those that wish to have them. There is also the possibility that the price will change between ordering time and shipping time (due to $$ vs Euro oscillation).
IIRC, the price on the pistons was about $30 US each (with rings). KS did not give us a price on the cylinders that they don't have.
Again - if you would like to order some of either, please contact a Committee member. I will try to remember to add this info to the Conference Call Minutes email that I'll send out next week. (I'm on vacation at the moment - away from my computer which allows me to send to that many people without being blocked on all the ISP servers for spam).
Steve, FV80
PS .. Also, IIRC, QuixoteRacing.com has a few sets in stock if someone needs them NOW.Originally Posted by Steve Davis
From what I understand after contacting kolbenschmidt will not be making cylinders anymore!
If this is truly the case what will the FV community be doing about this? Have there been any talks in the circles of the governing bodies for a solution?
Kapelke Tuned
RF93 Van Diemen FF1600
http://www.wolfsburgwest.com/cart/De...m?ID=111198057
Lists them as in stock.
Dietmar, the proverbial squirrel always well-stocked for the winter. His reluctance to needlessly install new parts during a rebuild not only saves his customers money it means he still has parts when they are truly needed.
Maybe the answer is to buy an inexpensive,readily available Chinese set,throw away the piston(which has no performance advantage) and put an expensive hard to get German piston into the Chinese cylinder.
Craig,
The link shows 36HP P & C kits, not FV stuff (40HP)
Bill Bonow
"Wait, which one is the gas pedal again?"
Wasn't someone requesting a rule change to allow the chinese sets? What happened with that?
I sent the SCCA a letter in support of the Chinese ones. I assume that others did also.
Haven't seen anything since then. Since it COULD be a rule clarification rather than a rule change, it is possible it could be implemented in 2013. Otherwise it will be 2014. (IF it happens.)
I also sent a letter in support of the chinese ones as well, for the very reason stated in this thread, others aren't readily and inexpensively available.
Looks like we are heading for 1300cc thenas they use in the UK...woo-Hooooooo 90HP
FV in the US and for us F1300 and we can still call it the FTDA..Formula Thirteen Drivers Association
Off the subject a bit, but Craig's post makes a good point: I have taken dozens of orders over the years from folks that have ordered what seemed to them to be the proper part from a "non-fv" VW vendor. If one is aware of all of the optiions, rules, best parts to use, that is fine. But many folks have spent quite a few bucks and didn't get what they wanted or needed. For those of you that haven't been playing with FV for 25 years, it is really best to check with one of the "FV" vendors for your parts. I think you will also find in most all cases that our pricing is the same or better, and you will know you are getting the right parts for your application.
I sent a letter to the CRB requesting a rule change to allow 2.0mm ring grooves, letter number 8420 back in June 2012. The 2.0mm ring groove is the hang up why the AA 40HP replacement piston is not legal; the original VW piston and previous replacement pistons have a 2.5mm ring groove. This last week I received an e-mail back saying my letter has been reviewed by the F-SR committee, and a recommendation has been made to the CRB. The CRB will review my letter and the F-SR committee's recommendation on their next conference call. What the recommendation is I do not know.
This is a rule change and will not go into effect until 2014 if the F-SR committee's recommendation is favorable.
Phil Holcomb
Last edited by holcopa; 12.05.12 at 5:40 PM. Reason: formatting
PROBABLYYou can NEVER be sure what the CRB might do ...
Steve, FV80
[quote=holcopa;369927]I sent a letter to the CRB requesting a rule change to allow 2.0mm ring grooves, letter number 8420 back in June 2012. The 2.0mm ring groove is the hang up why the AA 40HP replacement piston is not legal; the original VW piston and previous replacement pistons have a 2.5mm ring groove.
Why not just cut them to 2.5 its an easy thing to do.Altho the only time I ever used those pistons we had a top break off at the Runoffs.
E
In the short time I've been back involved in car racing, I have observed that some of the older "we-got-it-you-need-it-hold-on-because-here's-the-price" vendors are gone and that what is left from the old days when the market was much bigger are vendors who are exceptionally knowledgeable, helpful, and provide good products at a fair price.
Matt Rehm
1997 Citation FV #10
1997 Citation FV #16
Chinese (AA) Pistons.......
"Why not just cut them to 2.5 its an easy thing to do".
Actually.....not that easy. I have worked on alot of pistons (from VW and Porsche to Cosworth) over the last 35 years, and to chuck up a flexy chunk of soft metal that is nowhere near round, and get it to dial indicate in exactly spot-on is no easy task.
And while having been a machinist for over 50 years might help some, what proves to be another problem is with the inherent design of the "thin-ringed pistons". Thin rings don't require as much support as thick rings do, therefore the ring configuration of the AA pistons is compressed closer and lower on the piston. This works just fine....until you cut into those lands in order to widen the grooves. Not so much a problem with the top groove, as you can remove most of the material from the top of the groove (and remain w/i specs). The real potential problem lies with the 2nd. groove, where no matter if you remove the material from top or bottom, or both sides of the groove, you weaken that support. And for what reason? Just so you can fill that area back up with a spacer (which does not restore the support).
To be continued.
AA Piston Continuation....
Decided to post this in two parts after my laptop ate the entire reply the first time.
The other perceived problem is this:
Imagine Average Racer Joe damaging a piston early in his season. To deck and balance another piston is bad enough for him. However, if you get the deck within a few thou, and the weight w/i a few grams, it's gonna work. You miss on groove width by as little as a few tenths, or on the depth of cut, you have a serious problem. Additionally, miss on getting the sealing surface perfectly smooth and flat, you have a leakdown problem....
SO, how much of a hassle is this going to be for Average Racer Joe, and FOR WHAT REASON? This is simply opening the groove and refilling the additional area with an additional spacer.
Gee, I think I'll go dig some holes in the yard, so I can fill them.
(Hey, better now than in the middle of the race season).
Looks like we are heading for 1300cc then
Ohh yeah, That'll work! 1300s got their added capacity from a longer stroke crank (69mm vs 64mm). I've got a set of 1300 jugs I'll sell you cheap. The bore remained the same, but the cyls. are just longer....can you say; 5 to 1 compression ratio?
Hopefully, the CRB will agree with you and allow the change. We might even see it in the next FastTrack....
Gee, I think I'll go dig some holes in the yard, so I can fill them.
(Hey, better now than in the middle of the race season).
Steve, FV80
Steve,
You have always been a voice of reason, with the best concerns for this great class, (as well as a keen eye on cost) and I for one appreciate you and the years of effort you have invested.
(Also appreciated you showing me how to take the bridge turn at Road Atlanta a couple of decades ago! Just never got the guts up to do turn 1 as good as you.)
Mike
Can we take this to mean that at the FVAC has made a positive recommendation to the CRB in regards to the Chinese pistons?
Matt King
FV19 Citation XTC-41
CenDiv-Milwaukee
KEEP THE KINK!
They can be cut they are just not very good pistons. Any shop worth there salt could do it. Not that it is the best thing to do at all but it seems the only current legal way to get around things.While I havent been doing this for 50 years I am almost to 20. cutting out ring grooves should be a no brainer altho the pistons we used did break.Not saying its a good race piston but what else can you guys do now?
Erik
The FVAHC has made a recommendation to SCCA to include a set of measurements that would allow the Chinese pistons EXCEPT FOR the required 2.5mm ring gooves.
One of our members has also requested a rules CHANGE from the CRB to allow 2 mm ring grooves. That has passed through the FSRC and on to the CRB, but we do NOT know what their recommendation was. We SHOULD see the result of both in the next FastTrack which is due out next week I think.
If the CRB decides to allow 2mm ring grooves, then the Chinese pistons would become legal.... I think ... The CRB MIGHT require member input before they make a decision and they MIGHT not make the CHANGE before the 2014 season.... Time will tell...
Steve, FV80
Erik, correct, machining the grooves would make the AA piston legal, but isn't that just an added expense that we really don't need? Is there a performance advantage with a 2.0mm ring groove versus a 2.5mm groove?
BTW-the AA piston that was lost at the Runoffs, do you know what caused the failure?
PH
Is there some other measurement that makes them currently not legal? I thought it was only the ring groove width.
Matt King
FV19 Citation XTC-41
CenDiv-Milwaukee
KEEP THE KINK!
They are not "dimensionally identical" .. or even close in some respects to those pistons used by SCCA FV drivers over the last 40 years. The FVAHC has decided (with significant prodding from others) that the difference in dimensions is NOT an advantage and so would be willing to accept them from that standpoint... except for the 2mm ring grooves.
The recommended measurements have been set up such that all (currently known) Chinese pistons would meet them except for the 2mm ring groove and it is hoped that the CRB will see fit to allow that change as soon as possible.
Steve, FV80
What is the difference in cooling between Chinese and Kolbenschmidt 12 Fins to
18 Fins. I think Chinese has only 12 Fins.:
Kapelke Tuned
RF93 Van Diemen FF1600
I guess I'll hold onto my extra set of pistons and barrels!........
Mark
6 finsor ask Kimi Raikonnen hes a fin
IIRC, The difference is the manufactures of the OE VW pistons and cylinders.
Mahle had a 12 fin cylinder design which was later made in SA by Cima
Kolbenschmidt had a 18 fin cylinder design which was later made in SA by Cofap
My guess would be that AA in China is using the Mahle/Cima design
Bill Bonow
"Wait, which one is the gas pedal again?"
I understand that! has anyone ever raced the 12 fin and had a cooling problem?
Kapelke Tuned
RF93 Van Diemen FF1600
After 49.8 years of FV racing using both types, its safe to say that they make little to no difference in cooling. Head cooling is the bigger issue.
Bill Bonow
"Wait, which one is the gas pedal again?"
Thanks for the info!
Kapelke Tuned
RF93 Van Diemen FF1600
Well, I'm certainly willing to learn something here. Would you please share with me how you open the groove without removing material from the already thinner ring land? Is that the area where the AA pistons that you used broke? Do you mind saying how many broke, and in what manner?
As to my experience with them, I can't say that I have seen a single failure that I could blame on the piston being of that brand, and that is with having used or sold to other builders approximately 80 sets.
If anything, I prefer the AA piston for it being sufficiently light to eliminate the use of the high $ custom pins that wear out much faster than the free ones that come in the set.
I still have my doubts that if "Average Racer Joe" takes one replacement piston in to "any shop" to have it machined, it's going to go as smooth as you suggest. The average shop rate around here (Denver) is in the area of $100/hr. Care to venture a guess on setup, machining time, willingness to jump on doing one piston, and delivery time might be? I don't know, because just for grins, I called a couple of shops but never got beyond "not interested", and "sorry, can't help you".
To my way of thinking, the K/S piston is the same design since the 60s for the 40hp or the same as the earlier VW pistons going back even much further in time.....lots of time for improvement in design and material.
Not to mention that I couldn't buy any right now if I did want them.
Mike is right re: machining time and costs.
The simple thing is to just allow the Chinese Ring groove. Since we use spacers anyways, the existing groove is a non-issue other than a clarifcation to the rules. There is no performance issue with the groove.
PROBABLE response from SCCA
OK guys.. here's a clip from the PRELIM posting for FasTrack. (http://www.scca.com/clubracing/content.cfm?cid=44472) Seems we MIGHT have what we need/want for 2013?
Of course this is PRELIMINARY and could yet change, but it looks promising...Formula/Sports Racer
FV
1. #8420 (Phillip Holcomb) Allow 2.0mm piston ring grooves
In section 9.1.1.C.5.C.4, clarify the section by adding as follows:
4. Pistons and wrist pins minimum combined weight without clips or piston rings = 330.0 grams.
a. Piston material shall be cast aluminum with steel inserts.
b. Maximum distance from bottom of wrist pin bore to top of #1 (top) compression ring groove: 1.655
inches (20 mm wrist pin bore assumed).
c. Width of #1 and #2 (compression) ring grooves: .100 +.003 inches or ‐.023 inches (2.0‐2.5mm nominal).
d. Width of #3 (oil) ring groove: .158 +/‐ .003 inches (4.0mm nominal).
e. Wrist pin offset from centerline: .059 +/‐ .005 inches.
f. Eccentricity of piston below the oil ring groove: .012 +/‐ .008 inches. Eccentricity shall be defined as the
difference between the largest diameter and smallest diameter measured at the same distance from the
crown of the piston and below the oil ring grove.
Steve, FV80
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