All open wheel newbies (Tires)

[steve everard]

Like anything we do in life that's in the "fun catagory" we have to consider the budget and justify to ourselves only (not wives etc) thats its a good deal.......

Having run in the open wheel catoagory of Formula First (FST) for 3 seasons I can share that the tire cost by comparisen to other open wheel classes is significantly lower because of the spec Hoosier provided us and the rules which were designed to keep costs to a minimum. I hope others will chime in on this subject to support my vote for FST as the ideal entry to open wheel racing.

Steve

[TimH]

I like a Hewland. Still, I tell people FST is something they should consider. Especially if they don't have the street radial Toyo option we do if EFF.

[Ian Lenhart]

[quote=s
the tire cost by comparisen to other open wheel classes is significantly lower because of the spec Hoosier

Steve[/quote]

I have to disagree with you - A newbie can easily buy a set of low heat cycled used tires for a FF, FC, FV for about half the price of a new set Hoosier R60s. Try to find a set of used R60s. National racers are not running R60's so the supply is not there. Personally, I don't like the look of the huge cantilever rear tires and mounting is always a challenge. I would be more interested in building a FST car if the rules allowed for skinny FF rears and open tire rules allowing for used FF/FC take offs.

[dc]

How long to take-offs last, though?

And isn't the whole point of a spec tire to limit cost and extend use? Just because you can get cheap or free take offs doesn't make it the way to go for an entire class. R60s last a helluva lot longer and have less drop-off than an R25 or R35, so there are probably a lot less people taking them off to keep at the pointy end of tire performance.

[kea]

I agree with you Doug

[Tiago Santos]

Exactly. I bought takeoffs for my vee once and learned my lesson. Why spend 200-250 on a set of tires that are past their prime anyway? If a set of tires lasts for 6 competitive cycles, spending a bit less than half the price, for the worst half of their competitive life isn't much better than buying new tires.

The FST guys (and to an even bigger extent, the street radials in F1200) can run a set for a whole season pretty competitively. 700 a year, or 3x 200, plus mounting, shipping, and the hassle?

[Dave Woodmancy]

I have to disagree with you - A newbie can easily buy a set of low heat cycled used tires for a FF, FC, FV for about half the price of a new set Hoosier R60s. Try to find a set of used R60s. National racers are not running R60's so the supply is not there. Personally, I don't like the look of the huge cantilever rear tires and mounting is always a challenge. I would be more interested in building a FST car if the rules allowed for skinny FF rears and open tire rules allowing for used FF/FC take offs.

I have to agree with Doug, I have experienced all the variables on this one, new Vee tires, take off Vee tires, take off FF/FC R35, new and used FST tires. The FST tire package wins hands down as far as cost and consistency through the life of the tire.

[Ian Lenhart]

Here's my opinion to back my earlier statement. First off, I understand the soft compound tire will fall off in performance prior to a R60 The original posting indicated budget vs. winning or losing races due to tires. I'll get to my point in a second, but first I wanted to give you some quick background information. It's been a few years since I've been behind the wheel of a formula car and I've been trying to figure out what is the perfect class that I would enjoy on a budget that will not hinder my priorities like my family (2 small kids) and business. Based on budget and time, I'll be lucky to hit 2-3 weekends in a season. I have several friends in the same situation, so I know I'm not the only one whose counting pennies to get there fix. The class list to chose from within the budget: FST, FV, FF, CFF, FC, CFC, F500, and F600. I won't go into details about the pros and cons of each class and focus on FST, but I would like to note that the weekend cost for all 8 classes are going to be relatively the same if nothing serious happens. With this in mind, the factors of competitiveness on a budget, competition within area, and the coolness factor of the car being raced are taken into consideration. I think the FST class is a great concept and feel FST should be the new FV and relegating the die hards to vintage racing. Why not now - car counts are down and few are building new cars and the promotion for a 50 year celebration is weak. 50 years!!!! Why isn't the 50th anniversary for FV not at the top of this forum on a daily basis with people excited about attending and people buying formula vees just to be part of this event? Sorry, should be a new thread. Back to FST, the concept is great, parts availability is great, but what it lacks is the true entry level appeal. How can you reduce your weekend cost racing a FST and separate it from the rest. My thought being tires. I can't fork over $700.00 to get out on the track for 2 weekends a year. By opening up the tire rules I can race on used tires for $200.00 a season. That is a savings of $250.00 a race. For the guys thinking they need new tires to win, then go for it and spend the money. Obviously your priority is winning and you will spend the money to get the advantage. For someone like me that comes to the track already at a disadvantage due to lack of funds, my goal is to beat those who spend more money then I do by out racing them. Is there a huge performance advantage of a new set of soft tires over a 4 heat cycled tire on a FST car? Are the cars sliding around on the R60's? The performance of a used set of soft compound tires will be better then the R60's. The giant R60 rear tire is another of my deal breakers - the cool factor is not there. Anyone else in the same situation?

Ian

[Daryl DeArman]

How can you reduce your weekend cost racing a FST and separate it from the rest. My thought being tires. I can't fork over $700.00 to get out on the track for 2 weekends a year. By opening up the tire rules I can race on used tires for $200.00 a season. That is a savings of $250.00 a race. For the guys thinking they need new tires to win, then go for it and spend the money. Obviously your priority is winning and you will spend the money to get the advantage.

I hate spending money on tires more than any other line item in my racing budget. It can turn out to be a substantial portion of your budget in a class where motor rebuilds and maintenance are cheap.

That being said, I'm not about to spend $700/weekend with no hope of winning if an extra $300 means I have the equipment to win if I can do my part. What I don't understand, and perhaps you can lend some perspective----IF you choose to not spend what it takes to have a shot why not buy a set of R60's or AR's and run them for 3 years at 2 events per year?

[Tiago Santos]

It's not just about being competitive, it's about progression and reliable setup... When you buy new tires, you know what you're getting and they're usually pretty consistent. You know if everything else is the same, when you bolt on those tires, you can expect your car to behave the way it did a few months back. With take offs, who knows how those tires were used/abused. Can you even be sure if the fronts have the same cycles as the rears? Or left to right? Did the guy have lots of understeer and cook off his fronts?

(btw - the FV 50th anniversary promotion might be weak, but you'll see how many people show up on April 5th..! I agree, it could be better promoted to those outside the class, but I'm sure anyone that runs a vee knows it's the 50th in 2013 and will be there if they can)

[ric baribeault]

it's actually very simple. it's a concept RCCA came up with over 30 years ago. to make racing more affordable AND reward talent and prep, everyone races on a spec tire. that tire easily got a full season of 10-12 weekends, each with 4 hours of track time. there was no advantage on new tires so no one was stupid enough to go there. the pro zetec and 1600 series has taken an abbreviated version of that, in that limiting tires rewards talent and reduces costs. club racing is a whole different animal. as long as at least one decent driver is willing to go through multiple sets per weekend, it forces everyone else (who can be competitive) to do the same in order to have a shot at winning. i can't believe this is still a discussion after all these years. it's not rocket science. it's not a mystery. it's conspicuous consumption and unnecessary. but it is the only way some people could win. that's right...i said it! after 35 years in open wheel i've seen it enough to know it. and some of those people will say that's what other classes are for. well, i'm back in one of those classes, even though at this point in time i can afford the big tire bill, because it's the intelligent thing to do. and i love being on the same level field as some really talented CF drivers. it's wonderful to know when you win, you didn't buy it. and to the guys who want to spend unnecessary money on tires i say...enjoy your 4 car fields. when i started back in the 70's you had to qualify for a race or you went home. i wonder where it all went wrong .

[stephen wilson]

This is the first time I've heard it said that allowing sticky tires will reduce costs??? BTW, you should be able to find used R60's, I've bought them from Berget, and other racers. Or as Daryl mentioned, run them for several years. You're trying to race "cheaply", and actually worry if the rear tire looks cool?

[Ian Lenhart]

Ask yourself, why don't they enforce a hard compound tire for all classes? You can spend the extra $300 and show up with the best possible package. What is worse, a tire that is used but fresh within a 12 month period or a tire that is 2 years old. What happens to the performance curve when a tire gets older and harder? I'm not convinced the performance of a FST will greatly suffer with 6 heat cycle tire vs. a set of sticker tires. That's a lot of tire (even with a 7" rear FF/FC Front) for such a low BHP and lightweight car. Are you sliding around with the R60's? How about the rule of racing what you qualify with, that way nobody is starting the race on sticker tires.

[ric baribeault]

i'm not a fan of buying takeoffs so if you buy a new set of spec tires you know everything about them. new tires also mask poor setup....for a short time anyway. it takes a little skill to a get a car working on spec tires. another reason why some people throw on new tires frequently. they can't setup a car. nothing is more consistent than a spec tire

[Ian Lenhart]

This is the first time I've heard it said that allowing sticky tires will reduce costs??? BTW, you should be able to find used R60's, I've bought them from Berget, and other racers. Or as Daryl mentioned, run them for several years. You're trying to race "cheaply", and actually worry if the rear tire looks cool?

Of course I worry about looking cool. If I wanted to drive a hot rod I would race at the drag strip.

"It doesn't matter if you win or lose...it's how good you look". David Lee Roth

Ian

[ric baribeault]

ian, pretty much all the track records were beaten by pro series drivers on spec tires. i believe JT held most of them and he ran as a GY driver on soft compound so your point seems valid. however, on a lighter, lower hp car the R35 may have the characteristics of a CF on an R60. a 35 may be 20 heat cycle tire on an FST.

[stephen wilson]

R60's are still competitive for 2, if not 3 seasons. I'll have to check my records, though I honestly never counted age, just heat cycles. You can obviously run a CFF as a FF with soft tires.

[Ian Lenhart]

R60's are still competitive for 2, if not 3 seasons. I'll have to check my records, though I honestly never counted age, just heat cycles. You can obviously run a CFF as a FF with soft tires.

I've raced several CFF over the years and occassionally I would run FF on take offs. Getting back to the original post by Steve Everard:

"I can share that the tire cost by comparisen to other open wheel classes is significantly lower because of the spec Hoosier provided us and the rules which were designed to keep costs to a minimum. I hope others will chime in on this subject to support my vote for FST as the ideal entry to open wheel racing."

Is CFF the ideal entry since you can run a spec tires, take offs, run nationals, and go to the runoffs? Can run CM in solo as well.

[Daryl DeArman]

Ask yourself, why don't they enforce a hard compound tire for all classes?

<snip>

How about the rule of racing what you qualify with, that way nobody is starting the race on sticker tires.

Personally, the harder and cheaper the tire the more it rewards the driver and the less the checkbook is in play. Sounds like a win-win to me.

This topic comes up every winter I've heard some valid arguments on both sides of the equation. Someone with a few sets of wheels can actually get more useful/competitive life out of their tires if this rule doesn't exist.

[Daryl DeArman]

Is CFF the ideal entry since you can run a spec tires, take offs, run nationals, and go to the runoffs? Can run CM in solo as well.

That would vary, depending on your priorities. There are many classes where all the above can be said (obviously different solo class would apply)

I agree that the more versatile your chosen car, the better. I just can't bring myself to buy a Miata and I already had a CFF.

[TedV]

Is CFF the ideal entry since you can run a spec tires, take offs, run nationals, and go to the runoffs? Can run CM in solo as well.

Thats why I purchased a CFF. I can run it wherever the bank account and work allows. Currently only allows the local parking lot.

[Will Velkoff]

I would love to see R60's the spec tire for FF, it's completely ridiculous that everyone thinks it's ok to purchase stickers, run 2-3 heat cycles, then throw them in the trash. If it wasn't for that, I bet you'd see more people with the desire to run their cars. At a set of tires a weekend, it makes a huge difference on most racers budgets. That is the clear reason why I chose Club Ford over running FF. And for the guys that have the bank to do that, they can buy new R60's every weekend if they so desire!