First Race Season Issues and resolutions

[AJWALKER]

Now that a number of honda conversion have been completed and spent a season racing, how about some feedback to those of us who are pondering our winter to-do list.

I figure the Honda engined guys have a lot more time on there hands and might respond.

What were the Honda related engine problems? Either by design or manifiested by choices during the conversion.

What support equipment (fuel pumps, data loggers, gear selection) caused issues or just required repeated efforts to get right?

Do you feel the restrictor your running per SCCA GCR or Pro F1600 rules providing the pardiy in your outings. Keeping in mind the level that your running at. (regional Kent, SCCA GCR plate) (killer National Kent, Pro F1600 plate).

With the lower operating cost are you happy saving money or is it just going to you rtire budget or better hotels, more beer ?

[Dennis Valet]

Great idea for a thread. I know the guys running Hondas with the pro series have done a ton of work on these engines and their supporting parts with on track support from HPD. Hopefully they will share the knowledge they have gained so it trickles down and saves some money/headaches.

[problemchild]

Gearing: This is more to do with the 13:36 final drive than the Honda engine, but between the two, your collection of gearsets may be on the high side. We had a pretty good collection from the kent/10:31 but we will be adding a half-dozen more. Less of an issue if you are converting an older car.

Wiring: I think Tom and Sandy would point out many of the problems that people had were with poor wiring, wiring that would work fine with a Kent, but just would not cut it with the Honda. It seems that the Honda electronics expect to have full voltage supplied at all times.

It took me a few weekends to figure out it started much better when I just pushed the button and left the throttle alone

[Mike Scanlan]

My Fit engine which was an HPD new crate motor in the Spring of 2010 now has 52 hours of time on it and 4000 racing miles. I've done nothing to it in 2 years except periodic oil and filter changes and 3 valve clearance adjustments. I plan to start next season in the F1600 series with the same motor, still having done nothing to it. I would say that most of the Hondas running have had the same light load of work done to them. There were just a couple of guys who had them blueprinted but that didn't seem to yield any advantage. My motor hasn't dripped or burned a drop of oil. As for some of the wiring issues that were experienced, these harnesses are very sensitive to heat and this is engine bay is packed pretty tight. When I did my installation I expanded on the heat shields that HPD supplied and was very careful with the rest of the installation. I've also never run my fuel down much under 1 gallon after seeing some of the fp overheating issues that some guys ran into. My FP pressures have never varied from between 50 and 55 psi except under hard braking.
The 13/36 R&P issue is a valid one as it seems to allow the engine to better take advantage of the low end torque that seems to be the Honda's strength. I have noticed the rpm traces seem to fall off more with a 1 or 2 under gear than they do with a 4 or 5 under gear. The hp peaks around 6400 and you have to gear accordingly, the 13/36 will help on that front.
I use to typically split my DB-6 3-4 times a year when I ran a Kent for some reason or another. This car hasn't been split since the VIR double national 2 years ago when I had a clutch disc fail on the new motor. Whenever I split my car I would change the seals in the clutch slave just because of the work involved. Since I haven't had this Fit motor out those seals have started leaking, leading to some hydraulic issues. The car will get split this winter just to change those seals in the slave cylinder.
In plain english I'd be on my 3rd or 4th Kent motor by now and who knows how long this Fit will last and last with National HP (with the bigger plate of course). Glad to see that the SCCA finally did the right thing with the 30.5 plate. That should be about right while the F1600 series with the 31.0 makes it fair compared to Runoffs motors.

[PiperFF]

Season One: Oil change and Filter, 2 times
2010 Valve adjustment ,Once
Fuel Pressure issues ( corrected for 2010)
Installed External Fuel Pressure regulator



Season Two: Oil and Filter 2 times
2011 Upgrade secondary VTEC rocker springs.Per Honda recall
Upgrade ECM Per HPD recall
Replace Clutch Disk ( Failed in spin out )
Adjust Valves once
Check head Torque
Oil leak from Cam cover (pinched gasket on reassemble)
Checked Plug gap
Inspect all wiring for chafing
Tape HPD connector for additional secure lock

Had High temp problems( 215-220 in draft, solved with radiator replacement)
Temps under control 194-205 in drafton plus 90F degrees

Notes: Engine was purchased on E-bay with stated Miles of 9,800

To date, 2009-2011
Test day 40 laps
Quad regional SCCA
ARRC regional
8 double national
1 double regional
Plus Runoffs week
End of season Fun Day @ Blackhawk Farms (85 laps

My Opinion, Minimal maintenance
Consistent power
Pump Gas
HPD service
No Boost Battery needed

[Will Velkoff]

PiperFF,

If you don't mind me asking, how much did it cost you to do the swap considering you purchased a motor outside rather than from HPD with the kit?

[TimW]

PiperFF,

If you don't mind me asking, how much did it cost you to do the swap considering you purchased a motor outside rather than from HPD with the kit?

I went the junkyard route after HPD suggesting me to do so. I summarized my conversion expense and decision logic here: http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...921#post258921
and here: http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...432#post261432
HTH.

Tim

[Mike Scanlan]

PiperFF,

If you don't mind me asking, how much did it cost you to do the swap considering you purchased a motor outside rather than from HPD with the kit?

All you'll save is what you you save over not buying the new Fit motor ($2500) from HPD or a used motor elsewhere ($$$ ???). You still need to buy the engine conversion kit from HPD.

[Will Velkoff]

All you'll save is what you you save over not buying the new Fit motor ($2500) from HPD or a used motor elsewhere ($$$ ???). You still need to buy the engine conversion kit from HPD.

Gotcha Mike, thanks.

[problemchild]

You might save as much as $2K with a salvage engine and get a nicely broken-in engine. But, as anyone knows who has bought salvage engines, there is risk involved, and if you get a dud, its a huge PITA. You may get your money back, but you don't get your re & re, hassle, and bother back. You might have a 10-12% savings on the cost of parts for the whole conversion. I explored salvage engines and chose the new engine route.
Also, salvage engines may not have the starter, injectors, and all necassary electronics. You also need to find a non-automatic version.
I would buy the right salvage engine that was local and I could personally check out with leakdown test.

[RussMcB]

I agree with Greg. When I was starting my conversion I shopped salvage yards, and the prices in the ATL area were $1500 and didn't include starter (and other things?). I bought a new engine and it was a pleasure to work on. I have a big box of Fit engine parts that were removed that may be worth something to someone (sell on ebay?).

I have an occasional oil pan leak. I'm hoping a simple R&R with good sealant will fix it this winter. I plan to let it sit on the engine stand full of oil for a few nights to make sure it's fixed before installing it again.

As mentioned before, things like ignition switches need to be high quality. The original kit's fuel regulator system had an issue for a couple of people, but I think they were relatively easy to address. HPD had probably made a change regarding that.

[Mike Scanlan]

Russ, that does remind me, there were a couple of issues setting up the first oil pan. There isn't a proper relief milled into the pan itself, so you need lots sealant, at least on the front, the rear half-moon area has a relief as I recall. I had to do my first pan 3 times until I got it right, the second one I got the first time, knowing it was an issue. Set the sealant and let it sit on a stand overnight and then pour some oil down the front wall past the chain. 2 years and it hasn't leaked a drop of oil, nor burned any oil. I also ran into a clearance issue on 1 engine where it was touching the splashgaurd under the main bearing caps. If you find an automatic motor, it can still work you just have to buy the flywheel.

[problemchild]

My point with the automatic, is just, that if you have to buy a starter, clutch, flywheel, and a few other new bits, your margin of savings, gets reduced pretty quickly.

I know of two new cars that were delivered with plumbing and wiring that was not to Honda recommendations which resulted in significant bother and expense to the car owners. Make sure that you have a proper coolant by-pass on the remote thermostat and have the proper fuses in the wiring system. If you buy a car with the Honda installed, check and make sure the systems are to HPD recommendations. Like any race engine, the engine can only be as good as the installation!

Also .... make yourself a big note .... not to burn out the fuel pump by letting it run dry when draining fuel.

[RussMcB]

Russ, that does remind me, there were a couple of issues setting up the first oil pan. There isn't a proper relief milled into the pan itself, so you need lots sealant, at least on the front, the rear half-moon area has a relief as I recall. I had to do my first pan 3 times until I got it right, the second one I got the first time, knowing it was an issue. Set the sealant and let it sit on a stand overnight and then pour some oil down the front wall past the chain. 2 years and it hasn't leaked a drop of oil, nor burned any oil.

MIke, I've just finished resealing my pan, and agree with all you've posted. Very good advice to use plenty of high quality sealant in the front half-moon (mine had a .018" gap), and test for leaks before installing the engine in the car. I've had my engine out twice to fix this, and think it should be okay now. Last night the engine sat full of oil, tilted forward, and didn't leak (where before the Mobile 1 flowed out freely).

I changed friction disc and belts while they were easy to access. Should be good for a few thousand miles. :-)

Next job: Valve adjustment. According to the Fit manual, it looks fairly easy. Did you reuse the head cover gasket?

[Neil_Roberts]

Does the Fit really need an oil cooler?

[Mike Scanlan]

I've never used an oil cooler and the oil temps have been a bit low (well under 200) in my DB-6.

[SOseth]

Does the Fit really need an oil cooler?

I think this will be dependent on chassis type. My Citation probably should have an oil cooler.

SteveO

[problemchild]

Mike is the first person I have heard of who was not marginal on oil temp. Maybe it is a Swift thing. It was a real issue at Mid-Ohio last year where it was 90 deg in the shade and the cars with coolers were running 240-250.

[TimW]

I've never used an oil cooler and the oil temps have been a bit low (well under 200) in my DB-6.

Are you sure you don't mean water temp there Mike? If so, yes getting the Honda to get anywhere near 200F for water takes some effort of choking off ducts pretty severely. But, the oil temp in my DB6 is almost as high (& marginal) as with the Kent. I know of one DB6 with a small laminova heat exchanger but packaging is such an issue in the DB6 engine bay that I think he abandoned it as it was too high to prime/burp correctly.

[Mike Scanlan]

My data all year shows the water and oil running within 10 degrees of each other.

[BWC54]

My data all year shows the water and oil running within 10 degrees of each other.

Mike, where are you measuring oil temp and are you sure your sensor is accurate?

My oil temp with a cooler last weekend was running 230 F. And it was pretty cool last weekend for TX (60's). Water was 185 F.

[Mike Scanlan]

Water temp out of the top of the rad and Oil temp at the intake into the pan from the line coming out of the tank.

[RussMcB]

My data from Road Atlanta, November, 2011, shows a max oil temp of 110C / 230F.

Water temp was 178F.

Ambient temp was 77F.

Car: Swift DB-3 with full open side naca ducts.

230F doesn't seem too bad after seeing much higher with our FC cars that were converted to F1000.

[BWC54]

Oil temp at the intake into the pan from the line coming out of the tank.

That's probably why. My sensor is in the engine block.

[starkejt]

That's probably why. My sensor is in the engine block.

Uh, where?

[BWC54]

Uh, where?

Don't remember. I'll have to look again.

[starkejt]

The reason I ask is that I just put all the HPD stuff on a Fit, and I can't recall a place in the block that one could put an oil TEMP sensor. Now I'm going to have to go look again, too.

[BWC54]

The reason I ask is that I just put all the HPD stuff on a Fit, and I can't recall a place in the block that one could put an oil TEMP sensor. Now I'm going to have to go look again, too.

I called Doug to check and I was mistaken. It's in the pan.

[starkejt]

I thought that was really the only place for it, but wasn't 100% sure.