What Does FV need for the future?"

[Steve Bamford]

I think the ones asking for a spec tire are requesting something that will last much longer then a 2 race weekend in FV.

The 6 tire program for F1600 & F2000 helps keeps costs down so your competitor isn't running stickers everytime they go out on the track over the weekend starting with qualifying. This is how this helps keep the costs down in the series but keep in mind this is really a semi pro series, meaning people spend more money overall to race here.

As pointed out much earlier, many FV drivers would be driving FF if they could afford the difference. I don't believe the people asking for a spec tire areafter the same spec tire as F1600 or F2000...Hoosier or GY would love it if this was the type of spec tire FV was looking for.

[Amon]

SMsazzy,

Sorry for my impatience! Thanks for getting back to me.

Mark

[problemchild]

[quote=Speed Sport Engineering;332871]

Don't be ridiculous.
The spec tire was created to specifications desired by the Series for use by FF racers. Most of the competitors are using one set per weekend (2 races) and the using them for subsequent practice sessions, and then endless test days. Any suggestion that that spec tire is not an overwhelming success story is just ignorance. The alternative of having an open tire rule would be crazy.
quote]



This is basically what we already have now in FV. Current FV tires easily last 2 races, several practice sessions, and many test day sessions.

AND ..... they have to beat the other tire company.
If they can build a spec FF tire that is that good .... and they can build tires that good in FV with an open tire rule ..... just think how incredible a purpose-built FV spec tire would be!

PS .... for those not following along, FFs have the same basic weight, twice the power, real brakes, and drivers with a different performance/cost expectation than most FV drivers. The FF spec tire wowed everyone with the cost savings, but was still fast enough to finish 2nd at the Runoffs.

[grapefarmeral]

I just realized Formula 1 uses a spec tire to reduce costs.....

[Speed Sport Engineering]

I just realized Formula 1 uses a spec tire to reduce costs.....

I don't think they are using a spec tire to reduce costs...but are you refering to the tires that last 6 laps then fall off 2 seconds?

[problemchild]

I just realized Formula 1 uses a spec tire to reduce costs.....

Its all relative .... but of course they are. The tires are built to certain criteria, which in this case, specifies high degradation. As long as there is only one supplier, they can build in the desired qualities, without worrying about the competition.

Whether F1, NASCAR, or whoever .... nobody wants a tire war ..... except of course, entry-level SCCA club racers

[Daryl DeArman]

Its all relative .... but of course they are. The tires are built to certain criteria, which in this case, specifies high degradation. As long as there is only one supplier, they can build in the desired qualities, without worrying about the competition.

Whether F1, NASCAR, or whoever .... nobody wants a tire war ..... except of course, entry-level SCCA club racers

That's right Greg. If F1 was allowed to utilize any tire compounds/construction they wanted their tire costs and related development would go through the roof....even further separating the haves and the have-nots.

In my experience the majority of those who support an open tire compound rule in amateur road racing are those who either (a) are as competitive as they are because they can buy more/fresher tires than their competitors, or (b) have a financial interest in selling tires. Why else would anybody be opposed to saving money on tires while racing on equal equipment?

[butch deer]

That's right Greg. If F1 was allowed to utilize any tire compounds/construction they wanted their tire costs and related development would go through the roof....even further separating the haves and the have-nots.

In my experience the majority of those who support an open tire compound rule in amatuer road racing are those who either (a) are as competitive as they are because they can buy more/fresher tires than their competitors, or (b) have a financial interest in selling tires. Why else would anybody be opposed to saving money on tires while racing on equal equipment?

48 years of FV experience showed me that the frugleness of FV drivers have usually opted for a tire that was competitive but also lasted. Over the years there have always been at least two companies vying for the business and the most successful was mostly the one that lasted longest and was still competitive. The list of FVcompetitors(past and present) who have unlimited tire budgets and are willing to through several sets of new tires on there cars to always have a .01 advantage is mighty slim.

[Daryl DeArman]

The list of FVcompetitors(past and present) who have unlimited tire budgets and are willing to through several sets of new tires on there cars to always have a .01 advantage is mighty slim.

Not sure anybody was suggesting they have unlimited budgets or that the advantage they were seeking was only .01 second.

Why are folks in an entry-level budget class willing to spend $740/set of tires every other race weekend if not to have a competitive advantage over those that don't/won't?

[Speed Sport Engineering]

Not sure anybody was suggesting they have unlimited budgets or that the advantage they were seeking was only .01 second.

Why are folks in an entry-level budget class willing to spend $740/set of tires every other race weekend if not to have a competitive advantage over those that don't/won't?

Because there is an equal chance a spec tire could result in spending $740 a set every weekend.

[Steve Bamford]

Because there is an equal chance a spec tire could result in spending $740 a set every weekend.

If that is the case then whomever would have selected such a spec tire that would produce those results should be shot. That is the exact opposite reason why I am in favor of a spec tire.

Only pure stupidity would allow that to ever happen. Not even sure how you came up with that statement?

[Matt King]

This has been said before, but it bears repeating that we practically have a spec tire now: the Hoosier R55. Isn't at least 90 percent of the class running that tire at most races where there is an open tire rule? Mandating that everyone run it at every race wouldn't change much. Most people who have a handle on tire management say the current R55 can last at least two National races with proper managment plus have enough life left over for several practice sessions. It seems what is really being asked for is that Hoosier make the tire last longer with similar performance.

So what are the proponents of a spec tire really seeking? A tire like the R55 that lasts three Nationals? Four Nationals? Or the same tire at a lower cost through reduced contingencies? What is the perceived gap between what we have now and what they want?

[Daryl DeArman]

Because there is an equal chance a spec tire could result in spending $740 a set every weekend.

Hardly an "equal" chance, especially if the spec tires are only $500/set.

Minimize the cost per set and minimize the advantage of a new set of rubber and spend the savings on something not as consumable----like $1000+ manifolds.

...not understanding why the faster guys would be against racing others on equal rubber while saving money----unless of course they wouldn't be "faster" guys if in equal equipment.

[Tiago Santos]

A tire that will last more cycles without significant drop off (and doesn't leak 2psi/hour :P). If we have a tire that drops off a couple tenths in 10 heat cycles, I couldn't care less if other people are still spending $740 every weekend. The fact is some people have money to burn and will spend it no matter what - fine by me. If we ended up with a street tire that lasted 2 seasons, I'm sure some people would still run shaved tires and go through a set every couple weekends. Let them! But the distance to the have-nots would still be shortened and it would cost everyone else a hell of a lot less money to play.

[Daryl DeArman]

So what are the proponents of a spec tire really seeking? A tire like the R55 that lasts three Nationals? Four Nationals? Or the same tire at a lower cost through reduced contingencies? What is the perceived gap between what we have now and what they want?

Either would be acceptable in my opinion. If a R55 on it's 12th heat cycle gave up less than .2/lap over a new set I'd be okay with them as the spec tire even at $1000/set. Alternatively, if a new set was required to remain competitive against others on new rubber than lower the cost to the $500/set or less and I'd be okay with that too.

[Daryl DeArman]

A tire that will last more cycles without significant drop off (and doesn't leak 2psi/hour :P).

Ha! Ha! I have heard others complaining of such issues with the AR's. I didn't experience any such thing but then I only used 3 sets in an 8 doubles-weekend season....so a rather miniscule sampling.

[AVR_Shane]

If we ended up with a street tire that lasted 2 seasons, I'm sure some people would still run shaved tires and go through a set every couple weekends. Let them!

Or you can buy a year old set of tires for half the price and it will be the equivalent of shaving brand new tires! (and they will still last you a full season)

[problemchild]

Because there is an equal chance a spec tire could result in spending $740 a set every weekend.

This is a ridiculous premise! Pure fear-mongering.
If the boys at Hoosier and Goodyear are producing such great tire now, why would they give us a worse tire if we give them an exclusive supply arrangement? I have a lot more respect for Mr Foss and Mr Shaffer than that.

[D. Rader]

Accusations of fear-mongering coming from people that are trying to convince us that a class that has survived 45+ years has to have spec tires by next tuesday, or the entire open wheel universe will collapse and burn. That's really quite amusing. This whole conversation has become absurd. The only thing I have come away with is the knowlage that I need to start looking at other classes, because people in this class that aren't up front will always want the rules changed. You can tear me apart now, Won't really matter, I'm washing my hands of this entire thread. Dale

[sracing]

The only thing I have come away with is the knowlage that I need to start looking at other classes,

Dale,

Understand your position, but.. I think you will find much worse bickering about similar things in most other classes. While this thread is long with lots of posters, they are being made by probably less than 5% of the Vee comunity. Changes may get made, but this will all pass...

[Amon]

Dale,

No matter what side you're on regarding the tire issue, we all want FV to continue another 45 years or longer! But the trend over the past 15+ years shows a clear pattern of decline that can't continue forever. Eventually, if the declining numbers aren't addressed then my son and other's his age won't have the same luxery we've had to race in one of the best classes around! We need everyone's involvement in an effort to turn this around and grow the class. It's stagnant at best at the moment.

Mark

92' Protoform P-2/05'

[Steve Bamford]

Kodak lasted a lot longer then 50 years however not making changes quick enough stopped them from continuing on.

FF made huge changes allowing the Honda engine a few years ago, does anyone wish to comment on how that worked out?

Something has to change to allow for FV to continue on.

[DaveB]

Steve even FF dumped their tire rule.

This is economics 101, make a product, sell a product, make a PROFIT. You are asking the tire companies to cut their profit, take food from their mouths so you can have race on a budget of your choosing.
If spec tires were the saving grace for SCCA racing,every class would have spec tires now. I'm sure National office would love to see their membership numbers stop declining.

Dave

[Steve Bamford]

Steve even FF dumped their tire rule.

This is economics 101, make a product, sell a product, make a PROFIT. You are asking the tire companies to cut their profit, take food from their mouths so you can have race on a budget of your choosing.
If spec tires were the saving grace for SCCA racing,every class would have spec tires now. I'm sure National office would love to see their membership numbers stop declining.

Dave

I don't get why people are against saving money & don't actually push back against the manufactures. Try to make changes to keep costs down a little? What is so wrong with that?

There are tire companies out there already producing tires cheaper that will last longer then the current situation with Hoosier & GY. Would you not like to push the tire companies to build a longer lasting product? Do you not think controlling costs will help? Or do you think it will hurt FV by saving competitors money?

I don't receive free or discounted tires so cost does concern me.

[Bruce]

There has not been a single reason to convince me that a spec tire will save the class. As for the last fifteen years I have not seen a decline in FV. What I have seen is a fluctuation in participation. This has been going on for over 30 years. I have already sent in my vote to the CRB and have been informed it will be published this month. I have no need to wait for the survey results, since it was obviously flawed. A good attempt, but it did not have the one question necessary.

Scott,
Those in favor, are looking at the spec tire as a magic bullet. It is not. The proof was demonstrated in our own region. You have seen it too.



If I were to take every issue, personally and not for the whole, then I would be in favor, but the one thing lacking here are facts. I have seen that spec tires are not the answer.

[Steve Bamford]

I don't recall anyone saying spec tires were the magic bullet, i do recall many against claiming they were not the magic bullet though.

I still don't understand the opposition of spec tire though.

As far as a fluctuation of participation numbers...I guess I could also say there has been a fluctuation of the US deficit as well over the last 30 years...I wouldn't say either are in good shape right now.

[Daryl DeArman]

The only thing I have come away with is the knowlage that I need to start looking at other classes, because people in this class that aren't up front will always want the rules changed.

Dale, I won a very high percentage of the FV races I entered and I lobbied VARA hard for a spec tire because I wanted to spend less money on tires and remain competitive. By changing from $1000/set Dunlops to $500/set AR's my tire budget was cut in half.

The trend over the past 15+ years shows a clear pattern of decline that can't continue forever. <snip> It's stagnant at best at the moment.

Agreed, but many of those who currently have much invested in FV and are in their 60's and seem to be selfishly not worried about FV 15 years from now.

This is economics 101, make a product, sell a product, make a PROFIT. You are asking the tire companies to cut their profit, take food from their mouths so you can have race on a budget of your choosing.

Well you could ask Hoosier and Goodyear if they'd like to each sell X tires and make $Y profit or if they'd rather sell 2X tires, reduce their profit per tire by 25%, and make $1.5Y profit?

[problemchild]

I must confess that I have no concern for the tire companies profit or sponsored drivers who get their feathers ruffled because they will have to buy tires now. Between the spec tire production costs and eliminating tire sponsorships and contingencies, I expect the cost of tires to come down. If up to me, I would eliminate contingencies from the spec tire contract so that all savings are passed on to all competitors.

The tire companies usually manage to sort out tire programs for different tracks and classes, so the business moves around but market share evens out, and the competitor benefits.

[Amon]

Bruce:

How was the survey flawed and what additional question would you have asked?

Mark

[butch deer]

Kodak lasted a lot longer then 50 years however not making changes quick enough stopped them from continuing on.

FF made huge changes allowing the Honda engine a few years ago, does anyone wish to comment on how that worked out?

Something has to change to allow for FV to continue on.

FF cars are basicly free except for the engine. Put in a different engine of equal power and you have a verey small change. there are basicly no interchangeable parts on a FF made in the last 20 years and one from 1968 or whenever they started.
FV is based on using front end,Brakes,Transmission, and engine from a car that was mass produced untill 1965. If you have an original formcar you can buy a new chassis, take all yiour VW parts and your ready to win the "Runoffs" The solution to FV problems is not so easy that simply substituting a modern engine is the answer. It's probably even cheaper to build a new FF with a Honda than a Ford. FV doesn't have such a choice.

[Amon]

Butch,

Are you suggesting that we move to 1600's?



Mark


P.S.: I new that would ruffle some feathers.........

[budawe]

If you want to see the facts regarding participation you can go to SCCA.com and review numbers from the past couple of years. All classes have been declining in recent years inlcuding the spec tire classes. We can disagree about why this is happening, but it's mostly the economy and aging of participants throughout all motorsports.

Before you consider a spec tire, make sure to discuss their experiences with the Spec Maita and SRF folks. You'll find as much disagreement within those classes as there is on this forum. That's not to say it's a bad idea, just that there is a lot involved and changing your mind after the contract is signed, is just one of them. This year, the Hoosier spec maita tire was rejected by some regions and now they have more than one spec tire. Stuff happens.

Every competitor has their own driving style. Some are easier on tires than others. Making every driver run on the same tire will not make everyone happy.

Yea, you can call me an oldy but I do care for the class. After 50 years in the sport, I know there are no easy answers and I'm always looking for the unexpected consequence. Be careful what you wish for.

[Amon]

Brian,

With all due respect, I really don't care about the rest of the SCCA and their declining
numbers, just FV and their loss of 30% of it's numbers in the past 20 years based on
Greg Rice's calculations. Throw out the spec tire as a discussion point, and we still
need to find a way to turn around the decline, and do it within our class because I
have little faith in the SCCA leadership to pay little more than scant attention to our
current situation. We already have to explain the $300+ entry fee's to those who are
interested in our class, and add the current $650 tire bill for tires that are competitive
for around 6-10 heat cycles, depending on your driving style and it becomes a hard
sell for anyone, especially in this economic mess we currently are experiencing. I didn't even mention the cost of the car, and the difficulty of finding a car that fits and
you get my drift. Maybe we need to find out why the SM has been so successful? They're more costly to purchase, the tires cost more and they tend to rub on each
other and cause much more damage than we experience, so it can't be due to the
cost savings etc.....

Mark

92' Protoform P-2/05'

[Tiago Santos]

I think the general decline in numbers is linked to the economy as well as the growth of other sports that might give young people the same thrills for a lot less money. You know, skateboarding, BMX, snowboard, etc. Our heroes have changed, F1 isn't nearly as popular as it once was and road racing has suffered as a result.

I hope that with F1 coming back to the states, there is renewed interest in road racing in general and particularly open wheelers. As incomprehensible as it may seem to a lot of folks here, FV is the only open wheel class that has any chance of grabbing lots of young people dreaming of driving an F1 car. When you have a 6 figure job, it's easy to lose sight of reality, but most people can't spend $1000/weekend regularly to go race a slow go kart. So we can stay on our high horse, look down and laugh at the commoners, or find ways to make our HOBBY accessible to more people. Sure, we've all worked very hard at getting to where we are in life, why should we make it any easier for the lazy people? Well, I like having other people to play with, no matter how "worthy" they might be. I'm not the fastest competitor around, but I'm far from the slowest. Still, looking back at the last season, I was much happier finishing 6th in a field of 20 cars, than a podium with 10. Actually got a medal for finishing 3rd - in a race with 4 cars. I'd rather have finished 4th if we had another 5 cars out there.


Whatever happens, I'll be here as long as I can afford it. Since I'm considering changing careers into a job that doesn't pay nearly enough to sustain my current racing habit, it might not be as long as I expected, so you can consider my bitching about spec tires a bit of self preservation.

[butch deer]

Butch,

Are you suggesting that we move to 1600's?



Mark


P.S.: I new that would ruffle some feathers.........

No-I'm suggesting that FV is a lot different from FF. A modern engine for FV would basicly mean completely different different car as what the South African FV guys did years ago when they moved to a 1300cc water cooled straight 4. I don,t think this is needed or possible in the U.S. If thats what you want just build a new FF with a Honda.

[Hardingfv32]

Agreed, but many of those who currently have much invested in FV and are in their 60's and seem to be selfishly not worried about FV 15 years from now.

Selfish? No It is simply logical that we are not concerned about FV 10 years from now. Is the world or even SCCA going to miss FV? No

If you guys want to move any of us old timers, you had better come up with a better PR plan. What you have so far is not going to cut it.

Brian

[Hardingfv32]

With all due respect, I really don't care about the rest of the SCCA and their declining numbers, just FV and their loss of 30% of it's numbers in the past 20 years

If you can not appriciate that Club Racing is dying and FV along with it, and that there is nothing you can do about it.... well, I feel sorry for you.

That is the reason many don't want to bother with change. It simply is not going to matter. You have absolutely no way to prove me wrong.

Brian

[problemchild]

As usual, Brian has his own argument that supports neither side. "SCCA and FV will be dead in 10 years anyway, so doing nothing is easier than doing something". I have an uncle like that. He figures he's going to die anyway, so why bother quitting smoking, drinking responsibly, or trying to eat healthy. He has a great time!

I spend alot more time on recycling and responsible garbage disposal than my 20 yr old kids. While frustrating, knowing that my efforts are more for them than myself, I certainly don't stop, but work twice as hard to compensate. Sitting on the couch and saying "why bother?" is not an option.

[Amon]

Brian,

What is your plan? You state in your post that you're an old timer, so show us some
of your wisdom, quit bashing others and lay out a plan for the future. As Greg said,
taking neither side of an issue isn't solving anything, so WHAT"S YOUR PLAN!

Mark


92' Protoform P-2/05'

[Steve Bamford]

FF cars are basicly free except for the engine. Put in a different engine of equal power and you have a verey small change. there are basicly no interchangeable parts on a FF made in the last 20 years and one from 1968 or whenever they started.
FV is based on using front end,Brakes,Transmission, and engine from a car that was mass produced untill 1965. If you have an original formcar you can buy a new chassis, take all yiour VW parts and your ready to win the "Runoffs" The solution to FV problems is not so easy that simply substituting a modern engine is the answer. It's probably even cheaper to build a new FF with a Honda than a Ford. FV doesn't have such a choice.

No where did I state that FV should change engines, I was only pointing out that change can be helpful to classes as it seems that many are saying no change is needed.

FF made the change to Honda engine & overall the RUNNING costs of the cars has gone done making it more AFFORDABLE for people to run their cars.

Lets not lose sight of the fact that the cost of buying a car is not really the issue, the cost of running/maintaining it is the largest issue to tackle. Think of all the FV's sitting with owners who aren't running them due to the cost of running them. They don't need to buy cars, they just choose not to run due to many reasons but I am sure costs are likely near the top of the list.

Why not make FV more affordable by lowering the operating costs? Still no one has answered my question on this once.