What Does FV need for the future?"

[Speed Sport Engineering]

The slicks we have now are the best we've ever had....how much better can one expect them to be? They are almost as fast on cycle 1 as they are at the coords. I plan my tires usage around rubber left, not heat cycles....which says a lot in my book.

I don't think those of us opposed to these ideas are bitching....we are simply defending our class from those who are bitching, no?

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

There is a perfectly good racing slick made by American Racer that works fine for FV. We have been using them for years. They are good down to the cord and cost about $450.00-$500.00 per set. Yes, they are one to two seconds slower then the hoosiers, yes they don't hold air all day, yes they have a softer side wall so they have a different feel but the bottom line is they work fine and keep tire cost way down. We can do 6-7 double race weekends on two sets. That's $900.00 for the entire year in tire cost for 12-14 races.

Point is if AR can make a tire that can perform this well and last 15-20 cycles so can Hoosier or Goodyear if properly motivated.

Street tires are not the answer.

[craigs]

I missed the part where I was bitching about the R55. I'll be running those till the cows come home or a hard spec tire gets pushed through. I actually really like the R55 - the smell alone of a new set is like the sweet aroma of spring grass poking up through the early morning dew.

The only rules change I would support is a spec R55 with a cost reduction and contingency program left in place. Weight increase? No. Street tires? No.

FV ain't broke - SCCA and road racing, in general, are to some degree and need some work to be more cost competative with other hobbies.

[Amon]

Steve (Bam-Bam):

Amen to that! I've heard nothing from the naysayers about their idea's
and path they want FV to take to gain stength for the class.

Mike V: How many heat cycles were on your tires for the Runoff's
race this past year? I bet they weren't anywhere near being
corded and probably less than two heat cycles.

CraigS: Would you be happy with R60's if you're happy with R55's?

Mark

92' Protoform P-2/05'

[Speed Sport Engineering]

I think you'll find that most guys at the runoffs put new tires on frequently during the event. They are then used up throughout the following season. If you're going to buy some new tires at some point during the season, wouldn't it make the most sense to do it for that race? For the purposes of this discussion, why are the runoffs even mentioned? I don't recall anyone here lobbying for a spec tire even being at the runoffs, so why the concern about tires being used there?

I would have to go back and check my notes but I don't think there was more then one regular national event per year during the past few seasons I put a new set of tires on for.

[Amon]

Mike,

Because you said: "They are almost as fast on cycle 1 as they are at the coords". So to argue your analogy, there's no need for new tires since the heat cycles don't seem to matter? I'm just using your quoted statement and since when was the "Runoff's" off the table as a discussion point?

[Speed Sport Engineering]

Mike,

Because you said: "They are almost as fast on cycle 1 as they are at the coords". So to argue your anaology, there's no need for new tires since the heat cycles don't seem to matter? I'm just using your quoted statement and since when was the "Runoff's" off the table as a discussion point?

The runoffs are an exception - I stated the tires are almost as fast, never claimed they didn't matter. Considering the money and effort that goes into trying to win the runoffs, the tires are a drop in the bucket, and it's a place where those last few tenths matter. Vastly different then a regular national or regional event, which is why I made the distinction. Those complaining about the current tires aren't looking for the last few tenths.

I don't recall the topic of spec tires even being among the conversations with fellow FV racers at the runoffs. You would think if it was so important, that's where it would be brought up.

[craigs]

CraigS: Would you be happy with R60's if you're happy with R55's?

Mark

92' Protoform P-2/05'

Well since you asked:

No clue - never run em.

I do not want to slow us down though - perception that we are slow hurts us already and widening the gap between us and the rest of the run group isn't good either.

Somewhere in the past week to someone some where I was explaining MY take on harder tires. I wouldn't get anything out of them. I use two sets per year. Even if we switched to an R60 I would still use two sets.

I also can't believe that a spec R60 will get cars out of the barn. Earlier in this thread I offered a set of 12 cycle R55s up for free to anyone in my region that is sitting on the sidelines - not a single taker. Going from a R55 to a R60 isn't the big draw that is going to make qualifying necessary to trim the fields because we can't all fit on the track. There are many many factors that are contributing to the across the board decline in road racing from the goold old days.

Give us our current tire (GY or R55) at a 30% cost reduction like what was done with SM and I'll be the first to write a letter though. A R55 at 30% cost reduction should be just as cost effective as an R60 at current R55 pricing - without slowing us down.

[Tiago Santos]

Street tires would push the "new" drivers away?

Which "new" drivers are we talking about here? The handful of "new" (what would the average age of these drivers be? lol..) drivers that joined FV over the last 5 years? Or the dozens of kids that started racing miatas? With, you know.. Street tires.

Anyway, this is going nowhere. I'm curious to hear the results of the survey, but other than that, I'm done wasting time with this. I understand what you guys are saying, switching tires would be a fundamental change to the class (although I believe it started with treaded tires, didn't it?) and we might as well let it run its course, wherever that may lead.

[Daryl DeArman]

Putting a street tire on a purpose built race car is about the fastest way I can think of to make it completely un-cool.

Yeah because drum brakes, a single 28mm carb and 60HP air cooled motors are completely cool.

I didn't start racing FV because the cars were cool. I thought they were the most low-tech ugly things on four wheels. However, they provided competitive fields on the cheap. That's what attracted me. As soon as the old guard realizes it isn't the "speed", "technology" or the "looks" that's going to attract the new faces to FV the fields will grow. The FV fields are healthy now, but look around the grid next time and think about what that grid will look like 10 years from now without some new blood.

[Mark Filip]

If I wanted a street tire I would race a street car.

[Amon]

Tiago: 100% correct!

Daryl: I agree with you! My son is going to drivers school this spring and he
doesn't care what tires are on the car. He just wants to race and the
"cool factor" is waaaaay dowwn the list for that 20 yr. old.

Craig: The FST drivers have been using the R60 for their cars and they usually
last 20+ heat cycles without dropping off in performance to a large degree.
They're probably slower in the corners but I'd prefer that a FST driver
chime in on that statement since they have experience with them.


Mark

[craigs]

Different widths on FST tires than FV? I assume tire width plays a part in longevity.

[Amon]

Craig:

The mention of 20 heat cycles is very low for the FST cars so if they had an additional
10% tire degredation due to the narrower tire, we'd still see +20 heat cycles. I had a
FST for a year & 1/2, and raced on tires with 30+ heat cycles without cording the tires
so they due last. However, they're plenty more drivers with greater experience on
these tires than I so please give us your experience. Either way, we'd maintain the slick tire which would keep FVracer27 happy and not require a switch to other rims.


Mark

[sracing]

From all we have seen, the FST corners just about the same as an FV. As far as tire longevity, there are a couple issues involved. Obviously they are much wider, but we also run only about 1 or 2 deg negative camber on the rears and a bit less on the fronts. So we use the full tire. Also due to it's size and mass we don't get them nearly as high a temperature as an FV does. So it's tough to compare everything.

Realistically, the fast guys are using 2 sets in a 12 race season , but people have done well at 1/2 that. Plus, FST tires are ~$20 cheaper per tire.

[Tiago Santos]

If I wanted a street tire I would race a street car.

I thought I was cool for driving a "real" race car too, slicks and all. Until my friends (you know, in their 20's) saw pictures of the car and made fun of me. If they wanted to drive an underpowered beetle, they'd drive a real beetle! Those actually look cool

[problemchild]

Yeah because drum brakes, a single 28mm carb and 60HP air cooled motors are completely cool.

I didn't start racing FV because the cars were cool. I thought they were the most low-tech ugly things on four wheels. However, they provided competitive fields on the cheap. That's what attracted me. As soon as the old guard realizes it isn't the "speed", "technology" or the "looks" that's going to attract the new faces to FV the fields will grow. The FV fields are healthy now, but look around the grid next time and think about what that grid will look like 10 years from now without some new blood.

Were FVs ever cool? Not that I remember. Low cost attracted me first. Competition level was the rational to support the low-cost decision. When I started, FV drivers were 90% FF wannabees without FF money.

In 2012, 20 car grids are cool. Would that include more than 1 or 2 SCCA Nationals per year?

I used 5 tires per year in my FST seasons. I would sneak another front into my rotation and use it on the LF in the later events.. I probably never did all 12 events.

Against the expert recommendations, I also used as much front camber as possible and alot of castor. While the tires are wider, they are still using a very narrow band of tread .... maybe 1.5" wide instead of an inch wide. Compound and construction of the tire was much more of a factor in wear rate than width, in IMHO.

Most people I talk to, think the F1200 wheels/tires actually increase the cool factor .... maybe from 5% to 7-8% .....

[Steve Bamford]

The slicks we have now are the best we've ever had....how much better can one expect them to be? They are almost as fast on cycle 1 as they are at the coords. I plan my tires usage around rubber left, not heat cycles....which says a lot in my book.

I don't think those of us opposed to these ideas are bitching....we are simply defending our class from those who are bitching, no?

Not everyone wants to spend money flipping tires after every session or two.

I just hear a lot of negativity to a street tire & hear little suggestions. It is easy to shoot down ideas but it is another thing to try to come up with something that will help FV long term.

The one excuse that gets me is of the change to car set up by using a spec tire. Most of the people who are complaining about this are the ones saying not to dumb down FV as they like to be masters of their set up & should be rewarded for that. Yet in other posts they complain about having to change their car set ups with a new tire.

[Amon]

Steve,

No matter what idea or explanation you offer to those on the other side of the fence,
you can guarantee it will be shot down. It may be due to not liking change, protecting
one's turf, lack of belief in the need to change or whatever they can come up with at
the time. But as you said, they have no answers nor offer up any in an effort to grow
this class other than the obvious generalization about SCCA's lack of involvement,
marketing failures etc. that they can come up with to support their arguement.

Mark

[Rolling Stone]

Forcing the FV community onto a street tire is major departure and fundamental change in the class. Although not many have spoke up on here, there are many who would be very strongly opposed to it.

Putting a street tire on a purpose built race car is about the fastest way I can think of to make it completely un-cool. If you're trying to attract new and younger people into the class, that is not the way to do it. Just people even thinking it's a good idea makes me sad and frustrated.

Now there's a mature way of looking at the tire problem,its un-cool,what about making the colour of the car cool?wearing designer race-suits?....I dont think young or old drivers take up racing or make the move on a "Cool" basis..its a $$$$$$$ basis.

[Rolling Stone]

So get a good slick manufactured then that will last...just do something rather then bitch & make no change.

Its called"Floggin a Dead Horse"

[Rolling Stone]

If I wanted a street tire I would race a street car.

And if you wanted to race a REAL race-car you wouldnt be in a Vee either

[Rolling Stone]

Greg hit the nail right on the head!!We are ALL Formula Ford wannabees..perfect!!!!!!I dont know whos who on here for the most part,but I bet the guys who run up front are the ones who dont want any changes that dont suit "THEM" which is far removed from what F1200/FV is supposed to be all about..very sad really what has crept into FV from what I can see.$1000 manifolds..what a bloody joke!!!!!

[Amon]

Most of a vee comes from a streetcar ie: (engine, tranny, front beam, steering box)
that was intended to keep costs down!

Mark

[problemchild]

Whether FV or other classes, the guys who are doing it seriously believe it is really good as it is ... why else would they be so committed ..... and the way to fix it is for people to just stop whining, spend their money, and come out and race with them with similiar levels of investment and commitment. It is a great theory, and would work if we could find a couple hundred people to do just that. I do not believe that is possible. Finding ways to cut costs is a way that will help current FV racers race more often with more enjoyment and is the best way to attract some new blood. Resultant competitiveness (less cost and more frequent participation) helps, as will, making the cars more accessable.

[smsazzy]

Let's clear one thing up here:

The ONLY reason the FST tire last longer is that it is wider.

The R60 and R55 compounds are identical.

So, simply going to an R60 would do absolutely nothing.

If this is the route to go (R60), it would also require a wider tire to work.

[problemchild]

Let's clear one thing up here:

The ONLY reason the FST tire last longer is that it is wider.

Your statement is not accurate. Tire construction is as important for tire wear as compound. It is a very complex equation, and width is just one of many factors.

For example, Hoosier has been using the same basic compounds for their FV tires for atleast 20 yrs. The latest tires are much faster and durable. Front tires in the 90s were good for 10 laps in 60 compound, 5 laps in 55 compound.

[smsazzy]

Funny. My discussions with Hoosier seemed to indicate otherwise.

Either way, it is the exact same compound.

Width is the primary difference.

[Bill Bonow]

Stephen,

Look at the Hoosier compound chart. Unless Hoosier is lying to all of us, the compounds are different. I've had my fair share of conversations with Hoosier tire engineers as well.

Why doesn't someone talk to Hoosier about VROC's?

[smsazzy]

Stephen,

Look at the Hoosier compound chart. Unless Hoosier is lying to all of us, the compounds are different.

Why doesn't someone talk to Hoosier about VROC's?

Bill - I have spoken to Hoosier. They told me "[FONT=Verdana]there is no difference in your R55A and their R60A"[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]That is a direct copy and paste from an email.[/FONT]

[Bill Bonow]

Stephen,

Glad you have spoken to Hoosier. I have spoken to them as well. I don't get the same answer that you obviously did.

What about VROC's?

[smsazzy]

Stephen,

Glad you have spoken to Hoosier. I have spoken to them as well. I don't get the same answer that you obviously did.

Recently? I have been speaking with them regularly for the last month.

[smsazzy]

Here is what I was told on 1/24"
[FONT=Verdana]"...but like I have said before – there is NO compound difference between the R55A and the R60, identical"[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]another on 1/9:[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]"[FONT=Calibri]There is no difference between our R55A and the R60A.... same compound"[/FONT][/FONT]

[Matt King]

It wouldn't be the first time a company did a bait and switch for marketing purposes, but it seems dumb to acknowledge it publicly when they have other marketing material in circulation that contradicts that. Regardless, the tire seems to work for its intended purpose in FST,which would lead one to believe it could be possible to create a tire that performs similarly for FV. And I don't think anyone would expect that to be the same tire either.

[Bill Bonow]

Stephen,

A thread on an internet forum will not change any one opinion (as so obviously demonstrated in this thread). I'll stick to my conversations with Hoosier. The fact is that even if I'm 100% wrong, it makes no difference anyway.

What about VROC's?

[craigs]

Recently? I have been speaking with them regularly for the last month.

If you are speaking to them about a spec R55 tire, thanks a lot.

[smsazzy]

Stephen,

A thread on an internet forum will not change any one opinion (as so obviously demonstrated in this thread). I'll stick to my conversations with Hoosier. The fact is that even if I'm 100% wrong, it makes no difference anyway.

What about VROC's?

Bill - Reach out to them (Hoosier directly - not a tire dealer) and ask. Report back and let us know.

[Styz17]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm going to try the Canadian F1200 series (from Detroit area) for many of the reasons discussed here. F1200 has good car counts, a group that loves their series, 3 races each weekend and yes, the Street Radial. I don't think it will ruin the racing, but then I maybe missing something. With car counts at Michigan area Regionals can be as low as 4-5 cars and even though they are several hours closer I'm willing to try something different. As for the street radial, I would rather have that, than what I spend on proper racing tires. (BTW I think the F1200 rims look better, and Vees have never been cool.)

Everyone here has great ideas, but as a group there is no unified force for change. I came into Vee racing 20+ years ago for low cost racing with large fields. I'm saying nothing new here, I'm just another longtime Vee racer trying something different, I guess I am not the only one.

Rich Styczynski

[problemchild]

Bill - Reach out to them (Hoosier directly - not a tire dealer) and ask. Report back and let us know.

What does it matter?

We don't need an existing tire, which needs to factor in performance against rival companies. We don't need a 15-year old design hard tire. We go to the tire companies and give them the desired performance and durability characteristics, and they design and build a tire to suit. They will build a modern-day VROC. I expect it would be taller and wider (one size all) but I'm not going to tell them how to build it, how wide, or what compound to use.

This is the process followed for the very successful ProF1600 spec tire. They requested a racier tire than the 60A and got it.

[nbrigido]

Everyone here has great ideas, but as a group there is no unified force for change. I came into Vee racing 20+ years ago for low cost racing with large fields. I'm saying nothing new here, I'm just another longtime Vee racer trying something different, I guess I am not the only one.

Rich Styczynski

I think this sums it up!

There is no one person(s) per region or as a whole. That can go ahead, with the backing of others, and put a plan or program together. The fact this thread is all over the place show issues in the vee community

Without that, everything gets personal. There has been so many different ideas thrown around in the past couple of weeks, but we spend more time defending ideas and bashing others rather than addressing the issue.

The voices on this fourm are usually those of a passionate few, not the majority. Which usually means, the racing is a hobby, not a lifestyle.

While everyone debates which change is better, atleast ensure the costs are under control or can be better controlled to ensure the car counts are atleast maintained, or grow.

Maybe it's time for Formula Vee to get a president!