Car weight in 1963 was 825 without driver.
Car weight in 1963 was 825 without driver.
I vote to keep the wieght limit at 1025 we are already driving low powered cars why add extra wieght to even take away more power away from our cars?
Its not about taking away power it's about making more drivers have a chance to be more competive.Originally Posted by ARizer
Light drivers will want to keep the weight the same to keep there advantage, heavy drivers will want the weight to increase to give them more of a chance to be competive.
I happen to be a heavy driver and don't care what happens because if I want to run up front I will find a way to make that happen.
Or we could add 50lbs and add 50hp
Mark Filip
Are we trying to grow the class or make it more competitive or both? What is the higher priority?
I believe the priority should be growth. Trying to guarantee that everyone is competitive is a no win situation.
Craigs,
It maybe a "no win situation", but it sure is a "lose-lose" situation when drivers
walk away from the class over several issue's already described the last few
weeks.
Mark
yes growth.
Craig I'm not saying Im for a increase although it would most likely benifit me more than most I was pointing out it's not about making the cars slower. I think more important that we grow and promote the class. IF 51% of the drivers were not making weight I would be for the increase. I have no clue what the number is but I don't think it's anywhere close to that.
Mark Filip
I have a Protoform-P3 with the small starter and the small battery, light exhaust.carbon rear cover all to get me to the 1025 range. No data stuff I think the weight should stay at the 1025. I lost weight in 2010 and had to add weight 15 lbs It was hard to find a place to put it in the center of the car.
Protoform,
I wish I had your problem with my P-2, which is 28 lbs. over weight!
Mark
Mark is one of my friends #27 He is a nice guy, one of the best and will help you any way he can." but and I know he was joking" add 50lbs and 50hp we already have that called club ford hee hee
Any of my friends would say I'm pretty easy going... In general I've been o.k. with a minimum weight increase, even though i have almost 50lbs of lead and an extra large battery installed just to make weight. I, like many here, run on a tight budget. Long story short, my tow vehicle is my wife's jeep wrangler. With a very small open trailer, extra wheels, spare parts and camping equipment (yes, a motel room would likely put me way over budget), I'm already pushing (read "over") the capacity of my tow vehicle. Adding to that weight is unfortunately, not in my best interest at this time. The low weight was one of the factors that got me into FV... One of the things that makes FV accesable to the masses is that you don't need much of a tow vehicle, I've seen people towing with a small sedan...
mike
Last edited by vdrcr; 01.24.12 at 12:32 PM.
hey Amon: yea when I started in the vee class my plan was to get a great car. do my 4 national races and go to the runoff's. so I paid all the money for one of the best cars in the country. Then the scca decided to change the rules for going to the runoffs I can't afford to run the 7 national races it would take to make it so i just run regionals I wish they would have done like formula 1 and had a 107% rule or since we are amatures 110% rule If you run the 4 nationals and finish you get an invite to the runoff's then you must qualify to get into the show so I got a really great car and as long as I stay at 200lbs I make weight.
Buy a lighter tent. We're only talking about what? 15-25 pounds? That's like bringing an extra 12 pack and some ice, no?
Protoform,
I'm nearly 6'2" and also 200 lbs, so obviously I'm not out of shape, it's my car
that's not in shape! I hope to follow your path with a lighter battery and starter,
but I'm never going to be in the situation where I have to ADD 15 lbs to my car.
Maybe Dave Green made the P-3's lighter than the P-2's, especially the early one's?
Mark
92' Protoform P-2/05'
I've been ditching towing weight where I can, I fill my cooler with ice when i get to the track, I have a smaller tent for when I go solo, I'm not bringing any spares that I might be able to borrow at the track these days, I'm always condensing my tool bag. I keep my speeds down, I try to put anything heavy in the passenger footwell to help distribute weight more evenly. I'm just saying, I love to race, if I had to choose one hobby/sport, it would be autoracing. I play hockey to keep my reflexes sharp for racing, I go to the gym pretty much everyday to keep in shape for racing... I work hard 40 hours a week so I can afford to live, and to race. I pull more weight than I should so I can get to the track. If the consensus is to add 10, 15 or 25lbs more weight, I'll add it, I might not even vote against it. But for me, it's not in my best interest... Until I can afford an RV anyway...
mike
In my opinion, it would be a better goal to shoot for a more competitive series. In turn, that will bring growth. Talking about light weight parts, carbon body pieces, etc just to make weight. Not only does it get expensive, there is a safety aspect to it if people start drilling holes in the chassis to meet weight.
Higher weight means more affordable, more competitive racing. Both results will bring growth.
Shane Viccary
#27 Citation-Zink Z-16
Mike,
I started out similiar to you back in 96'. I had Jeep Cherokee with a POS steel trailer
that had seen better days, plus I slept in a one man tent or the Jeep if rain was in
the forcast. I've since moved on to an enclosed trailer pulled initially by a Durango,
but now a Grand Cherokee (w/ Hemi). My son and I have used the trailer to sleep in,
but now I seem to bring too much in the way of spare parts to the track...Sometimes
I look back on those early days as the way to do it, more simple w/ less hassle due
space constraints!
Mark
every weekend is an adventure!
now, I don't want to get this thread off track, but if we had a nice consistant spec tire, I could leave a set of tires at home, that would save me a bunch of weight and $... Then I'd be less opposed to adding some weight to my chassis...
mike
Mike,
Amen to that!
Mark
In the spirt of the original request in this post: I weigh 175 with all my driving gear, including the new HANS. I generally add between 6 and 12 pounds to my car to be SAFE on weight. With the exception of critical qualifying sessions, I choose to generally weigh about 130 to 135 at the end of a race. I have seen wide variations in scale performance around the country so I play it safe.
I did build my own car and the frame is seriously strong. Made from .095 and .120 wall mild steel tubing and safe. It has a steel floor and absolutely no extra components. I do run a DA system that weighs less than 2lbs.; stock starter; thick wall stainless exhaust, smallish 17AH gel cell, nothing else.
I guess the car weighs in around 850 give or take, since I have never weighed it dry. I imagine there's maybe 30 pounds available to reduce weight. Certainly lighter tubing could reduce the weight by maybe 50#.
PM me if you have any questions.
The above post is for reference only and your results may vary. This post is not intended to reflect the views and opinions of SCCA and should not be considered an analysis or opinion of the rules written in the GCR. thanks, Brian McCarthy, BOD area 9.
An increase in minimum weight will definitely have a competition effect; it remains to be seen whether it will result in growth. Let's say it increases to 1050. If you are already at or over 1050, there will be no change in your lap times. But anyone who is under 1050 will go marginally slower, so it will close the performance gap to anyone who is significantly overweight.
Matt King
FV19 Citation XTC-41
CenDiv-Milwaukee
KEEP THE KINK!
The weight issue may be something that makes the class more equitable. But, do you seriously know of ANYONE who left FV only because they were overweight? (Maybe too big to fit in the car, but that is another problem.) Does anyone REALLY believe a 15lb-25lb weight change is going to result in one new driver?
I know of 4 drivers who left because of weight. At least 1 went to FST.
Whether it makes them competitive or not is irrelevant. The perception is that if they are weighing in at 1050, they can't win.So they left and went to another class (3 of them, 1 quit altogether)
What are the chances that increasing the minimum weight will lure any of them back? Is this about growth or stemming the losses? Either outcome is desirable, but we should be realistic. It probably has more potential for retention than growth, so the class still needs to focus on attracting those new racers. Most people shopping around for a class aren't thinking, "I'm probably too big/fat for FV." They learn that AFTER they have made the decision and bought a car that they can't easily get to minimum weight. IMO, adoption of a spec tire would be a better marketing tool than raising the minimum weight, but obviously it's much harder to do.
Matt King
FV19 Citation XTC-41
CenDiv-Milwaukee
KEEP THE KINK!
I would be one that left FV because of weight. 1075lbs 200lb driver. If the weight was 1050 I would have probably made the effort to try and reduce the weight of my car, but at a 50lb delta no thanks....
Not sure if raising the weight will bring any new drivers but I definitely know that it would slow down the erosion of the class. I know of several fellow FV guys that will also be making the journey to "it" soon mainly because of weight.
Scott
How many more people do we need to hear from that have left the class due to weight to realizes weight is an actual issue? One is more then enough for me.
Also Jim don't be so naive to think that people don't look at weight issues before they buy a car & choose a class.
Steve Bamford
I don't think I am too "naive" in regards to racing and FV in particular. I have been around them quite awhile No doubt there are people that won't make the move INTO vee due to "weight", although it is usually an issue of "size" not weight. ie. They can't find a Vee to fit them. I have sold or brokered many Vees. Never heard of anyone leaving or not getting into because of the weight. Conceivably a person may chose FST over FV for this reason. But weight change is not going to build FV fields. It might be an excuse claimed by someone leaving. If 50 lbs overweight made them leave the class, even a change of 25lbs is not going to bring them back. If they were overweight less than 25 lbs, I doubt they left for that reason and suspect they again would not be back.
As I said, it might be a good change for existing competitors but I wouldn't start building too many 1200 motors waiting for new drivers.
My name is Billy Cooper and I am the example that you guys are looking for. I raced formula vee for 6 years and was a regional and a few national a year racer. I am 32 years old and have a Protoform P3. I am 6-1 and 250lbs. I cross the scales at 1075 after the race. I have stopped racing in SCCA for this reason. I know all of the light weights will say just lose 50lbs and you got it made. I have not been under 230 since 10th grade. I work out all of the time and I was not built to be a small guy. I have put my car on the stand and let it sit for the last 4 years because I came to terms that I was spinning my wheel as far as this weight issue goes. I also was getting tired of showing up and racing against two other people and usally at least one of the cars would not be running at the end of the weekend, which was sometimes me.
I would agree with all of the people that have been stating that they train and work so hard to make their racing effort perfect so they have an advantage. I envy those people but I have raced as a professional motorcycle racer and have given that kind of effort. I was paid to do that sport. I am not paid to race a car and I dont know anybody else that is making money doing this. I think racing formula vee is only for fun. It is not a profession. It is not a stepping stone to another series. Most people don't even have sponsors. It is just a hobby. That being said you need to appeal to other people like me that want a hobby and not a profession. I have a profession. I work 50 hour weeks, and have a baby. I can not devote a ton of time to this sport. I want to race and when I spend a few thousand on a weekend I want a semi level playing field starting out and changing the weight would help accomplish that.
I would love to see this rule changed. 1050 would be great and would make sense. I would come back and race if this rule is changed. I love racing a vee and think they have some of the best drivers I have ever seen. I am hoping to dust off the car for the 50th.
Fyi- I have been racing a Dirt Open Wheel Modified with 800hp and I am under weight in that car. The races have 30-40 cars every friday and saturday night and are racing for 2-5000 dollars for a win. They have a spec tire and tons of rules to keep cars even. Scca should take a few notes out of other organzations to make the club better.
Hope that makes some sense. Its late:
Billy Cooper
#64 Wild Eggs Racing
Does this help some of the people who are against weight increases see what we are up against?
Steve Bamford
A "spec " tire and weight increase to 1050 lbs. would be moves in the right
direction for this class. There's not ONE change to the status quo that will
make FV more appealing, but many smaller changes may bring more racers
our way, or we can just carry-on as we have the past 20 years and stick our
heads in the sand?
Mark
92' Protoform P-2/05'
Weight/Tire
Carroll Smith told me once that 'any car you put a racer in is a race car'. We aren't funded like F1 teams and our technology will most likely never transfer over to street cars or anything else for that matter and I don't see throngs of spectators spending thousands of dollars to watch us race. Anything that levels the playing field.... after all isn't that what the GCR says. This is a drivers class not a technology class or stepping stone to F1. The class is getting smaller and something needs to be done. A few years ago, during one of the "spec tire" posts/rants/etc I said I was in favor of the spec tire from financial perspective. I decided if were to support an idea I should "walk the walk" so I bought a set of Falkens and went to Canada. Other than adding a bit of rear camber the car went very well and I had a ball. The competition was great, racing was close and the tires are a bargan. The set of Falkens - $300 delivered to my shopMounting and balancing - $65, not writing checks for tires = Priceless. . I did have a set of rims from the MARRS spec tire series so my initial cost was lower. The wider rims I understand are about $100 each making the total investment in tires and wheels less than $800. Which sounds like a lot, but if you only buy 2 sets of tires a season, your now about $400 ahead. A new set of Hoosiers are something like $660 plus mounting and balancing, for tires that will last , how many heat cycles. There will be those that will tell you that some drivers will still buy new tires every weekend, let them. The benefit to those drivers is that they will spend half as much and the benefit to the others is that they will get really great cast offs at a monumental savings. Who cares what the cars weigh, who cares what tires we run on, if it will bring bigger fields and more competition. As I've said before, even with changes like these, there will be those that spend time and effort to be at the front and that's great. If we can make the class grow and not fail there will be a "front" for those drivers to showcase their talent...
I agree with previous posts noting that size seems to be more of an issue than weight. We saw at least two potential new FV drivers work their way across the paddock at NHMS in 2011 both trying to find a car model that they could fit inside. Car weight wasn't an issue for them at all. One came in and he's a great addition to the class.
The biggest obstacle for the class is money. We're one of the lowest-cost classes, or so it has been said, so many of us are not the hedge fund traders, trust fund babies, or Mexican drug lords found in the higher-cost classes. Our 2011 season ran over $10,000. That's money right out of the retirement fund. My '82 Lynx/B has not a single upgrade on it, she's pretty much as primitive as the day she was born. I'll lose some body fat, get the smaller battery, grind out some of the excess fiberglass on the underside, maybe get the lightweight starter ... these upgrades won't cost too much except for the pain of not being able to eat Twinkies until after the 2012 season ends.
Since we can't reduce the entry fee, travel, etc. costs, what stings me the most are (1) tire costs and (2) test day costs. I have friends who would love to race, and would buy a car, but the operating costs make them turn away. Nothing to do with car weight.
Someone brought up a good point about adding weight to min-weight cars ... what CG advantage would be gained by someone with such a car having 25# of lead added to their floorboard? We need to make sure that there are no unintended consequences of changes to the class.
Finally, there must be a zillion idle vees sitting in garages and barns out there. Maybe we need regional campaigns where the veteran drivers make personal phone calls to guys who have dropped out of the racing scene and try to get them back even just for a race or two - for starters. As they say in sales or in non-profit fundraising and volunteerism, it's much easier to retain/recover existing customers/donors/participants than recruit new ones.
FV Lynx/B #8
I think you have nailed it. Look at a yearly budget and with the exception of tires, at best you can only get nickels and dimes out of the equation. Even FREE tires won't make it cheap. Those guys that can't afford it now, will not be able to afford it if you take 20% out of the running costs and I don't think you can get there. The only real answer is via promotion of those people that CAN afford it. IMO.
Lets wild estimate a race weekend:
$300 entry
$400 travel, meals, misc
$200 Tires, (gently used)
$300 pro-rated car maintenance and consumables, engine rebiuld, etc.
$100 pro rated / race safety equiment belts, helmets, firesuit, etc.
0 to $1000? Crash damage)
I think that is very conservative, so a 4 weekend season is over $5000 if you run close to the bone and don't have an track incident.
We haven't discussed the capital costs of buying a car yet. Realistically your first purchase is going to be $8000 plus. That is a cheap car and a gimme trailer. (HANS, first fire suit, helmet, schools?, etc.)
Free tires doesn't make it affordable.
Thanks for the post Jim. That's been my main opposition to making radical changes like a spec tire in our class. I just don't see it changing much. Everyone "says" they will race more, but I highly doubt they actually will. I believe its part of a long list of excuses or reasons not to. Eliminating one will not change things. Finding out if they will or not is certainly not worth upsetting the rules of our long standing class.
I agree - we need to go and find people who can. I know it sucks, but I've felt that way all along.
Michael I agree that there are people who use this weight & tire as an excuse but you hav also heard from others who are current racers & state this would help them. By helping them that may be the difference between staying in the class or sitting out. There are others who could probably be brought back with changes but there is no way to know.
I understand your position as you have spent much time & effort to be at the top of the class. I am not trying to take away any of your efforts, just trying to see if this is best long term for the class.
Steve Bamford
No worries, I understand. I just question the reality that these changes will actually bring people back or even make them stay. To me, it's not worth upsetting the stability of our rules to find out.
Of course people are going to say it will. But talk is cheap.
I really don't think there is any evidence that doing so has proven effective in other classes within the SCCA. If people have an excuse or a reason not to do something, then they aren't really passionate about it in the first place....so how long would they stick around even if they got their way? Only long enough until the next reason pops up.
Mike,
Maybe not within the SCCA, but the type of rules implemented up in Canada
have caused their FV series to grow, and the major rule change was the change
to a "spec-tire" in addition to others. As I said previously, we can continue to
ignore the decreasing FV fields (both National & regional) and just stick our heads
in the sand, or try to make changes that increase the fields. We know the current
trend and making the previously described changes could only help the situation.
The choice is to continue with the decline and slowly fade away or grow by making
our class more favorable for all involved.
Mark
92' Protoform P-2/05'
We also have to consider whether any of these proposed changes would cause any other current competitors to quit, resulting in a zero-sum or negative impact on the class. It may seem unlikely that people would quit in droves over implementation of a spec tire or increased minimum weight, but I wouldn't rule it out. It seems equally unlikely to some that people would quit simply because they are 20 pounds over, so who really knows?
Bottom line is we just don't know what the impact will be, which means someone ultimately needs to make executive decisions on behalf of the class. The way the SCCA works, that is the CRB and BoD. Writing a few sporadic letters to the CRB has proven in the recent past not to be sufficient, so it will take a more committed effort to accomplish a change. That's where the FVAC comes in. I know they are surveying the spec tire issue. What about the weight issue? Maybe they should move that ahead of the tires because it is likely to be easier to accomplish if there is truly support for it.
Matt King
FV19 Citation XTC-41
CenDiv-Milwaukee
KEEP THE KINK!
Others such as Greg can speak to the introduction of the spec tire as I was not around racing then but I can say with confidence that there wouldn't be a FV Series here in Canada without it. There might be a few cars left running but they would be running in the Formula Libre class with F1000, Formula Mazadas, etc. It is one major change that has helped keep the class strong.
It also is a class that seems to draw karters into the series via promotion, word of mouth, a little luck, etc. It seems to be a good starting point for many young drivers, some move on & some stay. We do have some 50 plus year old drivers but much less as a percentage then what I have encountered in the US. With that said the introduction of the Master class has seemed to help add a few more "experienced" drivers to the class.
There are also basically two or three arrive & drive teams that help bring drivers out, some for a single weekend, others for a season.
Our series can always use more drivers & are always looking for improvement as nothing is perfect. Economy is not superb here either.
What gets me is our area draws from a population of about 5-7 million people & we still get decent fields. In areas of the US that have a much denser population why are the numbers so much lower. If I overlayed on a map the geographic region we draw our 5-7 million from the US is easily pushing 100-150 million people.
Last edited by Steve Bamford; 01.26.12 at 12:51 PM.
Steve Bamford
Mike,
Your class is dying a slow death. I think everyone would agree on that.
Maybe it is dying a natural death, I don't know............
Will adding 25 lbs to the minimum weight help? I don't know that for sure but I do know for me, and a few of my friends, it could/would have made a difference.
Why not give it a shot? What do you really have to loose? What possible down side would there be to trying? If it does nothing but slow the decline of the class then it would be considered successful in my mind.
Doing nothing really isn't working............................. is it.
Adding 25lbs is not "upsetting the stability of our rules" in my mind.
Scott
I'm not sure you can draw any conclusions based on the F1200 series in Canada. They run a very limited schedule on 1-2 tracks. It's a very narrow focused series. What would the fields be like if the events were scattered throughout Canada?
If someone were to organize a narrow focused FV series in the US that allowed quality track time similar to our Canadian friends I think we would see the same results. Regardless of our minimum weight or spec tire.
In fact, the Canadian guys are looking at their minimum weight issue as well...and if they are getting such great fields, then the weight must not the preventative issue here.
The assumption is more people would race if we raised the weight and offered a spec tire. I see no evidence to support that other then "people saying they will". But there could also be a case made for people being turned off by things like spec tires. So there is no substantial proof that either of these issues will do anything to help our class. I don't think it's worth the risk of all the negative's to help those who "say they will race more". There is a risk to making these changes that people are neglecting and should not be ignored.
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