Tire Brand Question

[lawyerbob]

Would be interested in opinions on All American Racer tires. Cost wise a new set is about 60% of the cost of a set of Hoosiers or Goodyears. I've talked to at least one person who feels they are slower than the other brands.

I'm looking at it and wondering if, at my level, NEW AAR's wouldn't still be better than used Goodyears or Hoosiers, even if they are a "slower" tire.

Anyone with experience with those tires who cares to share their experience, I'd be glad to have it.

Thanks

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

Bob,

American racers are IMO the best FV tire ever invented. They are very consistent and fast right down to the cord. In fact I just went out last weekend to a practice day in a FV which had 4 year old Racers on it and they were awesome. We typically get 20+ heat cycles out of the tires. Because they are a harder compound they are typically about 2 seconds a lap slower then the National tires like the Hoosier or Goodyear. We can get 12 races including practice and qualifying on two sets of tires. Wish the National guys would adopt this tire. It would lower the cost of racing nationals drastically. Additionally, many of the local regional racers out here would probably run nationals if they were using AR's. I know I would, and I would probably make a serious effort to go to RA for the runoffs too.

[lawyerbob]

Bob,

American racers are IMO the best FV tire ever invented. They are very consistent and fast right down to the cord. In fact I just went out last weekend to a practice day in a FV which had 4 year old Racers on it and they were awesome. We typically get 20+ heat cycles out of the tires. Because they are a harder compound they are typically about 2 seconds a lap slower then the National tires like the Hoosier or Goodyear. We can get 12 races including practice and qualifying on two sets of tires. Wish the National guys would adopt this tire. It would lower the cost of racing nationals drastically. Additionally, many of the local regional racers out here would probably run nationals if they were using AR's. I know I would, and I would probably make a serious effort to go to RA for the runoffs too.

As for the "2 seconds" a lap slower, I assume that's relative. In other words, for a guy like me who is probably not even within 5 seconds of the fastest guys, it might not matter at this stage of the game?

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

I would agree.

Also, the time difference will vary depending on the track surface and the amount of time the car spends in the corners.

[lawyerbob]

That's kinda what I thought too - thanks for your input Scott!

[Bob Posner]

I find the ARs diabolically uncomfortable. The sidewall is so soft that the moment in a turn that the tire finally decides to begin to work is unpredictable. Totally different approach to driving than Goodyear or Hoosier tires. The design goes back 30+ years - tires have come a ways since.

[smsazzy]

I'm really not a fan of the American Racer. However, it really depends on if it is the best tire for you to accomplish your goals.

I agree with Scott that they last longer. However, at a much slower pace. 2 seconds per lap is a LOT.

That said, if you want seat time and to learn to drive better, grab a set of AR's and go for it. Once you get some more seat time, slap on a set of Hoosiers or GY's and you'll be amazed how much faster the car is.

Once you figure shipping and everything, you save about $200 with the AR's.

[smsazzy]

Another thought is you might talk to some national guys who are willing to part with their take off tires. I typically have a set or two available with 6-8 cycles. If seat time is what you want, you can run another 8 cycles on them safely and probably have that same 2 second drop off.

Some times I will run a set of tires out past 12 heat cycles in testing. It costs me about 2 seconds.

[lawyerbob]

Thanks Stephen - I guess that's the $50 question ($200 question for a set I suppose) - are a low cycle set of Hoosiers comparable to a new set of AR's. I know I can get good used tires at Berget for less than the AR's

[smsazzy]

A 6 cycle set of Hoosiers is faster. No doubt there. However, you are only going to get 6-10 additional heat cycles out of them. (Compared to 20 with the AR)

If it were me, I would buy some 6 cycle Hoosiers if the price was right. Anything less than half that of AR's and you probably are making out okay. AR's will cost you between $450-$500 depending on where you are shipping them. I think the last set I bought was $385 plus $60 to ship them to Washington (from CA). I used them for 2 heat cycles.

Since ICSCC dropped them as the spec tire for FV in the northwest, I would be happy to sell them. I have Hoosiers too with tread left. Maybe we can make you a package deal on a couple sets to get you going for 2012. :-)

[lawyerbob]

Since ICSCC dropped them as the spec tire for FV in the northwest, I would be happy to sell them. I have Hoosiers too with tread left. Maybe we can make you a package deal on a couple sets to get you going for 2012. :-)

Ill shoot you a PM when I get a free moment

Thanks

Bob

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

I find the ARs diabolically uncomfortable. The sidewall is so soft that the moment in a turn that the tire finally decides to begin to work is unpredictable. Totally different approach to driving than Goodyear or Hoosier tires. The design goes back 30+ years - tires have come a ways since.

Bob, FV goes back 48 years, so relatively speaking the tires are very modern. I agree that the AR's have a different feel particularity on turn in. I would not call them diabolical

Stephen, what's a couple of seconds equal to in average lap speed? maybe one MPH??? I just don't see that as being a valid concern, particularly if everyone is running the same tire.

I hear 4-6 heat cycles on the National tires and they are just not the same. Why would I want to try and set my car up on used tires ? and basically for the same price as new ones?

This is FV.....a class that is suppose to be for grass roots people. A class that is suppose to be relatively inexpensive to compete in with a bad tire rule IMHO. I guess I will never get it.

[Tiago Santos]

I see and agree with both sides of the fence. I guess my true opinion is, if they fixed the god damn leaking, I'd support American Racers as a spec tire for everyone haha. I don't necessarily care if a tire is slower as long as everyone has the same handicap.

They are very different tires and I do prefer driving on Hoosiers/Goodyears. The car just feels better, nevermind the lap times. But yes, Hoosiers will drain your wallet pretty fast. At our local track (short, tight and technical) I believe I'm giving up at least a second by the time the tires are 4 or 5 cycles old. One problem with this is, most (all!) of the local guys run a set of Hoosiers for multiple weekends. The problem is we're not really coordinating when to bolt on a new set, so the differences in lap times from different drivers one weekend to the next is pretty funny to watch. You never know who'll be on the podium out of the same group of guys haha.

But if you can get a set of used Hoosiers for half the price of American Racers, I'd get two sets. Use one for every practice and quali session, and the other for races only. Then once the practice/quali set is unusable, buy a fresher set for the races and relegate the race tires for practice.

[Matt King]

One problem with this is, most (all!) of the local guys run a set of Hoosiers for multiple weekends. The problem is we're not really coordinating when to bolt on a new set, so the differences in lap times from different drivers one weekend to the next is pretty funny to watch. You never know who'll be on the podium out of the same group of guys haha.

It's all fun and games until one d**khead decides to show up with brand new tires EVERY weekend!

[Bill Bonow]

Bob,

Sorta makes you miss those old FST days gone by......

$585 for a set of Hoosier R 60A's that will give a solid 20 heat cycles without performance loss.

And, many times you could end up winning free tires just for participating.

I remember it like it was yesterday

[Matt King]

Poor Bob, he had it so good and let it slip through his fingers!

[butch deer]

I'm sure Goodyear and Hoosier could make a 20 heat cycle tire if they didn't mind being 2 seconds slower. The SCCA has no tire rule for nationals so you are free to run American Racers. FV is not a spec tire class. If it was guidelines should be established and every tire company should be given a fair shot at meeting the guidelines to be selected as the tire.
In the meantime remenber the contingincies and the support Goodyear and particulary Hoosier have given to events like the Formula vee Birthday Parties. The testing and development they have put in and paid for to keep up with the competition(which is what our present system rewards) and the support they have provided trackside at our events. I hqave never seen an American racer dealer providing trackside service in the Midwest and East.
I'm not against more competition as over the years M&H,Firestone,Bridgestone,Continental,and Dunlap have all haqd FV tires.
Racers vote with there wallets in free tire classes. If American Racer could make a 2 second faster tire with a $200.00 savings overv the compition it be be awsome. They would dominate the market Like M&H did in the 70's by making a better.faster, and longer lasting tire ant at a price competitive with there competition.
Butch

[iamuwere]

Stephen, what's a couple of seconds equal to in average lap speed? maybe one MPH?

At say, Nelson Ledges at typical lap speeds you are talkin nearly 2.5 mph by quoted track distance. 2.5 is light and day in racing.

Jim

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

At say, Nelson Ledges at typical lap speeds you are talkin nearly 2.5 mph by quoted track distance. 2.5 is light and day in racing.

Jim,

Gee sorry, I was a 1.5 MPH off. I am sure everyone can feel that much of a difference

Butch,

With all due respect I don't really care about what Goodyear or Hoosier does for the class in the way of contingencies, I believe they are part of the problem in FV not the solution. I want a more economical national tire rule which IMO could be a contributing factor in saving the class by bringing out more competitors.

[iamuwere]

We are racing, right? I care quite a bit about that. Two seconds is getting lapped fairly quickly. I care a lot about that.

[Bill Bonow]

Jim,

If I may speak for Scott, I think his point is that if all are racing on the same hard compound (which a low dollar class like FV really should be doing, much like the Canadian F1200 series), then everyone is slower, but still very competitive against each other.

[Mark Filip]

Jim,

If I may speak for Scott, I think his point is that if all are racing on the same hard compound (which a low dollar class like FV really should be doing, much like the Canadian F1200 series), then everyone is slower, but still very competitive against each other.

[iamuwere]

My apology then. This thread has forked from "are they okay to use" and the answer seems to be that they are slower to a discussion of wouldn't it be great if we had a spec tire. I didn't follow that leap.

If I can interject on a spec tire, though...

In FE we have a spec hard compound (r45b) Hoosier. It looses speed after a weekend. About a second or so after the first race. I will always replace them for each race. That is too much time to lose. The only thing helping in the pro series was the allotment of only six tires for a race weekend from first qualifying to last race. That saved two tires or six tires otherwise that would have been used.

Again, apologies for the failure to follow the tangential movement.

[Bill Bonow]

Jim,

No need for an apology. FV guys are generally weird. Most of us have a hard time without a number of tangential movements each day

[lawyerbob]

I didn't mean to start a poop storm. And yes bill, yesterday, life such an easy game to play . . . Lol. I do still think FST has the right idea, in many respects.

[SwanTechEnt]

I know this is a bit off topic, but anyone know if Avon makes formula vee tires? Saw a picture in a recent Victory Lane magazine with a zink that looked like it did and had a friend point it out to me.

[jpetillo]

Bob,

I would say to look around and see what your competitors are running. I think you'll find that many (or most?) FV regional guys are not running tires with 6 or under heat cycles. That will depend on the region you race in. You'll also most-likely find that when you're off the pace the amount you mentioned the freshness of your tires will correlate less with your speed. That will be the case for those you are dicing with as well. So all will be even.

If I were you, I'd pick up some Hoosiers with 6 heat cycles like Stephen mentioned in a heartbeat. You can get them for much less than the price of new ARs. I don't average one set of new tires per year, so I most often run with over 6 heat cycles. Most of my tires have been used sets, and I can run competitively in regionals. John

[Amon]

At the very least, I'm for a spec tire for REGIONAL races! I think this would go
along way towards getting many of the "garage queens" back on the track
without hurting the National racers, and any contingencies that are available!

Just my $0.02 worth

Mark

[lawyerbob]

At the very least, I'm for a spec tire for REGIONAL races! I think this would go
along way towards getting many of the "garage queens" back on the track
without hurting the National racers, and any contingencies that are available!

Just my $0.02 worth

Mark

That would make some sense to me too.

[Mark Filip]

At the very least, I'm for a spec tire for REGIONAL races! I think this would go
along way towards getting many of the "garage queens" back on the track
without hurting the National racers, and any contingencies that are available!

Just my $0.02 worth

Mark

It's not as simple as we need a spec tire, I wish it was. I have raced many different cars/karts in the past and they all have this is common. I don't care what anyone tells me about how good or bad tires are the way I see and have experienced it tires are not consistain from start to finish. If we had a spec tire someone will figure out the sweet spot on those tires and buy as many as needed to always have that sweet spot. Weather that requires shaving the tires or using them for 5, 6 or 2 heat cycles. It is the same as we have now just the tires may cost little less, be a harder compond, maybe last longer for the poor man that still will not be able to purchase the tires with (the sweet spot) still left.

I agree if we could take the tires out of the picture would be great but unless we have the mean to do something like the big guys as in only allowing so many sets per event or season which could never work with SCCA regional stuff. Some of us race 2 weekends and some 20 and I'm sure none of us want to go to the track and buy fresh tires every weekend and only allowed to have 1 set just so everyone is on the same level. It would work but it would cost a lot.

I don't think anyone is going to change anything with the rules as I have seen how much of a nightmare the rules are with SCCA.

You would have a better chance of coming up with something like the F1200 guys localy with the racers you race with and work out something everyone agrees on and if someone shows up running the expensive tires who cares let them run alone up front while the rest of you are having the time of your life racing like it should be about.

My region is really good most of us run 1 or 2 sets per season and it is what it is. I'm lucky to have a ton of great racers to race with and as long as I can have a good run with someone I'm happy.

Mark

[Amon]

Mark,

If a Spec Tire rule is established for REGIONAL only racers, and someone buys
new tires every weekend, so be it. I can't control nor want to control someone's
spending, but just want a tire that will be just as competitive at 12 heat cycles vs.
2 heat cycles. At the moment, the current GY or Hoosiers are much stickier at
2 heat cycles vs. 12, so that's why we all have to purchase new tires by that point.
I want to reduce my out of wallet expenses and not worry about others who have
an unlimited budget etc......

Mark

[smsazzy]

At the very least, I'm for a spec tire for REGIONAL races! I think this would go
along way towards getting many of the "garage queens" back on the track
without hurting the National racers, and any contingencies that are available!

Just my $0.02 worth

Mark

There is absolyutely no reason you cannot get this done now at a regional level. San Francisco region, Oregon region, Northwest region and ICSCC all run the American Racer as a spec tire in all regional races. You just need to go to your region and propose it. The supplemental regulations are then changed for the region.

The danger is that you now have two different tires used by National and Regional racers. You will likely have the cross-over that happens today stop. For this reason, ICSCC dropped the spec tire this year to boost entries. (Most Vee's in the Northwest only run nationals) If that divide is not a concern, go for it.

[lawyerbob]

There is absolyutely no reason you cannot get this done now at a regional level. San Francisco region, Oregon region, Northwest region and ICSCC all run the American Racer as a spec tire in all regional races. You just need to go to your region and propose it. The supplemental regulations are then changed for the region.

The danger is that you now have two different tires used by National and Regional racers. You will likely have the cross-over that happens today stop. For this reason, ICSCC dropped the spec tire this year to boost entries. (Most Vee's in the Northwest only run nationals) If that divide is not a concern, go for it.

I should stay out of this, but sometimes can't help myself. IF there was a Regional Spec Tire (say AARs), as a regional level driver that wouldn't stop me from crossing over to a National here and there and still running my regional spec tire - I mean lets face it, if I'm a mostly regional guy running used tires (GY or Hoosiers) and decide to try a National, odds are I wouldn't go out and buy new tires just for the National races, so I think it's a horse a piece.

If there was interest in Cen-Div for a regional spec tire I'd support that, but with just getting back to FV, I don't think I'm the right guy to stir that pot.

[Mark Filip]

Mark,

If a Spec Tire rule is established for REGIONAL only racers, and someone buys
new tires every weekend, so be it. I can't control nor want to control someone's
spending, but just want a tire that will be just as competitive at 12 heat cycles vs.
2 heat cycles. At the moment, the current GY or Hoosiers are much stickier at
2 heat cycles vs. 12, so that's why we all have to purchase new tires by that point.
I want to reduce my out of wallet expenses and not worry about others who have
an unlimited budget etc......

Mark

Your not getting it. They will not be competive to a new set weather it's a spec tire or what ever tire it is. The tires do not stay the same for 12 heat cycles I know there are plenty of people that say they do but they don't they can't Its impossible rubber is worn away every sec which changes the tire, they may be fall off a little slow than current tire but they will fall off. If you don't care then you will run current tire and run for 15 heat cycles like I do. It will not matter what tire you run unless the amount of tires is controled which in club racing is almost impossible to do.

Get the racers you race with on a consistant base with, come up with a tire you all like and set a limit on 1 set per season and be honest about it and who cares who else shows up. Have a race within a race and hand out your own $2 flags from the dollar store at least you will be racing.

Mark

[problemchild]

You either cater to the 10% who get tire sponsorships and contingencies, and the 20% who like spending stupid amounts of money to run FV, and leave the open tire rule ... or cater to the bottom 70% of FV racers by instituting a good across-the-board spec FV tire. Any middle ground will have mixed results.
I am a strong supporter of spec tires for FV, but it needs a total commitment to be successful. Those 30% have to be willing to give up their advantage for that to happen. I have seen no indication that that is likely to happen anytime soon.

[problemchild]

Your not getting it. They will not be competive to a new set weather it's a spec tire or what ever tire it is. The tires do not stay the same for 12 heat cycles I know there are plenty of people that say they do but they don't they can't Its impossible rubber is worn away every sec which changes the tire, they may be fall off a little slow than current tire but they will fall off. If you don't care then you will run current tire and run for 15 heat cycles like I do. It will not matter what tire you run unless the amount of tires is controled which in club racing is almost impossible to do.

Get the racers you race with on a consistant base with, come up with a tire you all like and set a limit on 1 set per season and be honest about it and who cares who else shows up. Have a race within a race and hand out your own $2 flags from the dollar store at least you will be racing.

Mark

You're not getting it. Amon is asking for tires that fall off .2secs after 10 sessions instead of 2 secs after 6 sessions. Any of the tire companies have the technology to provide that if it is in their interest to do so.

[lawyerbob]

I am a strong supporter of spec tires for FV, but it needs a total commitment to be successful. Those 30% have to be willing to give up their advantage for that to happen. I have seen no indication that that is likely to happen anytime soon.

Occupy FV!!!!! LOL

I agree Greg, the FV community seems to be very resistant to change. The irony is the the e-mail that came from the Steve Davis and the FV registry saying "we want suggestions on attracting new drivers, making the cars faster, brake better, corner better, getting cars out of garages . . . ." And I thought - hmmmm, I think this same conversation was going on two years ago when I decided to convert to FST, and I think the answers are the same too.

Not trying to get off topic or piss people off - I'm back in FV because it makes sense for me to be there for a number of reasons, but I find it interesting that the same conversation is going on. I'm going to race, have fun, and hopefully improve my skills and knowledge, that's why I'm here. with luck, I won't go broke in the process.

Thanks everyone for their input and ideas - very helpful information.

Bob

[Matt King]

Background: I ran for several years in a class that used Toyo RA1s as the spec tire (not Spec Miata but the same tire they have used). We shaved them to 2-3/32s for dry use and ran full treads in the rain. Full treads sucked in the dry and if you were fast they were almost undrivable but some newbies always tried it anyway thinking the tires would last longer. They actually wore out faster because the heat buildup in the tread blocks caused the tread to tear up and wear out faster.

Whatever rubber compound Toyo uses in these tires is virtually impervious to heat cycling. If there was any difference at all to a freshly cycled set it was in the 10ths of a second per lap range, which might matter to a guy qualifying at the front of the field in SM for the Runoffs but makes no difference 99 percent of the rest of the time.

RA-1s maintain consistent laptimes to the cords, especially when they are properly heat-cycled before the first usage. We're talking about 50+ heat cycles, or an entire racing season on a 3,000 pound sedan. It was the rare driver in my class that could go through more than two sets in an 8-10 race weekend season.

Anyway, I doubt the RA1 would be a practical tire for FV, but it is evidence that it's possible to choose a tire that meets the expectations most people have for a spec tire.

Summary: I think the perception of high tire costs is a factor that keeps people on the sidelines, especially in a class like FV where so many current and potential entrants are counting every penny it takes to field a car. It may be true that a conscientious racer can run Nationals at a competitive level on a limited tire budget compared to the rare few out there who run stickers every weekend, but I can say from experience that having a long-lasting, relatively inexpensive tire is a huge selling point when marketing a class to newcomers. It simply removes one potential barrier to entry in a sport that already has so many working against it.

[problemchild]

I think it is worth noting, that my suggestion that 90% of the new tires are being used by 30% of the racers, would not be uncommon in many classes. Some of us don't think that FV is supposed to be about tire budgets. With the pack-racing nature in FV, good drivers can be competitive with a tire compromise of 1/4sec per lap. Two secs per lap is alot to ask though.

[Mark Filip]

I think it is worth noting, that my suggestion that 90% of the new tires are being used by 30% of the racers, would not be uncommon in many classes. Some of us don't think that FV is supposed to be about having new tires. With the pack-racing nature in FV, good drivers can be competitive with a tire compromise of 1/4sec per lap. Two secs per lap is alot to ask though.

I agree with you Greg but do you really think the current tire falls 2 sec in 10 cycles? Maybe that's why I'm slow