Rebuild or Start Over?

[Tom Johnson]

Ouch. I just got the estimate from my enginebuilder today. A little less than $7k for a rebuild to get me on the same page as everybody else. Not that I'm complaining (well, maybe a little ), but I wonder if there might not be some other alternatives to get me essentially the same place with a little less $$.

So here's my questions:

1) Is it better to get this engine rebuilt with all the top stuff, or look for a good used National or Pro motor with relatively little time on it?

2) Is there such a thing as a "good used engine"? Where would I find such a creature? And how would I be able to determine how much life there was in it?

3) If I do get another engine, is it better to part out my old one or sell it complete, knowing that it couldn't (and shouldn't) command top dollar?

Thanks in advance for your input. Left up to my own devices, I'm certain I could find only the most expensive and painful solution to this problem!

Since I know there are a lot of strong feelings about enginebuilders and engines in general, feel free to e-mail me directly if you would prefer.

Tom

[Bob Wright]

Engines are always fun...Lets see, a new Quicksilver costs about $12,500 without any exotic stuff on it. Your rebuild- I assume updated pistons, rods, and other current items- is $7,000. That means the engine is worth $5,500 as it sits. Is it? Can you buy one for that price that only needs a $3,000 rebuild? A fresh one (you hope) for $8,500? A cheap motor is somewhere around $3,500 but since you have to rebuild it anyhow...

A couple of things I've found out the hard way: Sometimes you buy a "killer National motor" vouched for by the builder which has had all the good stuff switched before you actually get it. Or it "only has an hour on it" and oil filter is clogged with bearing material and it has 30% leak in 2 cylinders. People never sell the REALLY good motors; they will them to friends.

Best bet I've found is make sure you've got good basics(head)then get it rebuilt properly with the right goodies-(never, ever, ask the builder to cut you a deal-its a sellers market with the good ones-and they'll stop paying attention to you) and you should have about the same thing as a new motor.

[Dave]

What exactly do the engine builders do that's worth $7,000? Or is this mainly a supply/demand lack of parts thing?

[Bob Wright]

You'd be suprised...big costs include bringing the head up to current technology and the rod and piston purchase and preparation. This is over and above a routine rebuild which usually goes for $3-4,000. $7,000 sounds like a new crank, cylinder sleaves, and probably some other stuff along with the above.

[Tom Johnson]

Bob:

Thanks for the reality check. After having been burned in other forms of racing buying "slightly used" engines, you'd think I would have learned my lesson... It probably is the best bet to go ahead with a known quantity (rebuild) than buy something used and hope for the best.

Dave:

I think we probably get a lot of value for our money. From go-karts I know engine-building is usually a thankless job with relatively low profit margins. Not many guys get rich off it, but you are sure to get plenty of static off customers who don't understand that sometimes engines just go pop no matter how well you build them.

[Tom Johnson]

p.s.

You're pretty close on your estimate of the work! No sleeves, but add a head because the last genius with a diegrinder made the exhaust ports illegal.

[Rick Silver]

Tom,

I was about to post that you are likely to need a fresh head. It is quite common that an already machined/prepared head cannot be made to perform up to current specs. I would also add that a new updated/flowed head is the key to horsepower and any good engine builder will also flow a manifold to match. Add some pistons and some carb work and you are quickly up to the quote. Also, there is probably a lot more dyno time involved in bringing your now completely different engine up to max horsepower such as cam timing and carb tuning.

[Rick Brannon]

I have bought quite a few used engines both in karting(Komet 135's) and FF1600 and F2000 and now in Atlantic, I have not been burned yet however I do caution you do do a few things first, if you do not have the tools and skills then take the time to learn them you will need the skills to evaluate operating problems. Some of the tools have already been mentioned here; Leak Down Gauge,used to evaluate cylinder sealing capablity does it hold pressure,does it leak and if it does where,carburetor = intake valves, exhaust = exhaust valves,engine breather = rings this is a rough start can be learned from other mentors at the track, reading engine performance books. Drop the pan and drop a main bearing and a rod bearing or better yet all of them, an oil sample test at a lab will not tell you much as you need to take a sample when the engine is running from the tank this is the most accurate way and make sure the testing company uses ferrogaphy and spectrographic analysis to determine wear particles and identify what type of materials are wearing. This will cost about 100 bucks but this is a small price to pay considering the investment. You will not have to spend the money for the test if the engine does not pass a leakdown test that you can do your self. What you guys have helped me understand why my new 2L motor has not sold on the web even though I have offered to let a buyer drop the pan and veryify the engine condition using any test they want even send the engine to my builder (Ivey) for the verification of dyno time only. It seems that the unscrupulous guys out there are the norm and the honest guys are few.

[Bob Wright]

Rick; I reread your comments...I think I might have sounded too jaded about buying and selling engines on the web or any other form of classifieds. It can be done, and your suggestion about sending it to the builder for verification makes great sense and would be enough for me to consider buying. The known builders have a reputation to maintain and probably wouldn't let a substandard motor get sold after they inspected it. My reference to a 'switch' occured without the builder actually seeing the motor, only looking up records. But, like anything else, its always buyer beware, and have reasonable expectations. It also helps to try to know who one is buying from.

[Rick Brannon]

Bob do not think that your experiences are jaded yto ou have passed on information that is valuable to the newcomer to this hobby, BUYER BE AWARE! The skills that are required to run these cars can be aquired by anyone if you pay your dues, if that means hiring a team to run your car or learning how to do it yourself it doesn't matter. I was lucky at a young age in karting to have mentors who just walked up to help I must have looked like I needed it! These people instilled in me the attitude to pass on this knowledge just as it was passed on to me and to help out if you have time and can't race your buddies. This forum is based on that just as the formula ford underground site is and I will always read and learn from the people that are just out to learn and have fun and not to whine about someone elses advantages. I am not a rich guy just a blue jeans worker that saved his cash and pursues a hobby that is just a dream to others I feel lucky to live this dream! I hope that the words that I spew help someone new to the sport or old to the sport, knowledge is the key to prevent yourself from getting took to the cleaners from the people who just do not care. A side note when I moved up an engine class my builder (Ivey) no longer does these engines and the engine I bought was from a builder not close to my area,in talking with Jay he suggested that I contact Arnie Loyning close to me as Jay was and reminded me that I ask a lot of questions about how to tune, what type of fuel,you name it I am not afraid to ask and that Arnie was the type of builder that I needed. I think Jay understands my type, I just want to have cost effective fun and do the limit of the skills I aquire allow. I do not build engines but I enjoy maintaining my car but not on the weekend I race it I ahve learned through trail and error that it was acceptable in karting,formula ford maybe, but when you can concentrate on just driving for the weekend I was shocked to see what it did for my lap times. I train my crew guys myself but be for warned if your crew guy can afford a car be prepared to have a new rival and to have to train a new guy!

[Ferris11]

Tom,

I bought a NEW head and block from Elite at the end of the '99 season with all of the good stuff, with the exception of the new pistons (I got the engine just before the pistons were legal). It cost about $7000. The motor is top notch. I don't know who you're rebuilding it with, but for that kind of money, you can probably get what I got without "rebuilding".