Anyone using or have any info on an external electric fuel pump like the Mallory 5110FI or Mallory 4193FI? Trying to get away from the intank pumps or having the extra tank with the motorcycle pump in it.
Jerry
external fuel pump
Anyone using or have any info on an external electric fuel pump like the Mallory 5110FI or Mallory 4193FI? Trying to get away from the intank pumps or having the extra tank with the motorcycle pump in it.
Jerry
In theory, in-tank pumps look good to me...
Did your JF1 use an in-tank pump?
Rick Kean
I've used one Jerry and never had any problems. Mike B recommended it to me.
Rick
The JF1 used a small faucet pump that fead an external tank with a stock Suzuki pump in it. Some of the guys in the southeast use that type system. It worked great but the new car doesn't have room for it and I'm trying to save weight. I really don't like electric wires in the fuel cell and it would be easier to change the pump if it was outside the cell.
Rob
What pump did you use?
Jerry,
I have used these pumps with no issues at all. It may depend on your plumbing size per what pump you would need. 5/16 or 3/8 I.D. hose.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MSD-2225/
I used the same pump as Dan. You may also need a fuel pressure regulator depending on your engine. My 06 Yamaha had one built into the fuel rail, whereas my 08 did not.
fuel system
Jerry
Sounds like you will no longer be using the small external surge tank like you did on your previous car.
I have found on my Phoenix FB that without an internal or external surge tank, my flat bottomed fuel cell will allow surging with less than 3 gallons.
My sportracer with a small external surge tank feed by a Facet will run the main tank dry without surging.
The surge tank and additional pump and plumbing weigh much less than carrying 3 extra gallons.
I felt the same as you regarding wires in the cell until I realized every street car I drive has an internal pump.
If my older Phoenix had a top access fuel cell like the newer ones I would go with Dustin Wrights recently developed internal sump and multiple pump system in a heartbeat.
It looks like the Space Shuttle with 2 low pressure pumps attached to the outside of an aluminum tube that has the high pressure pump inside.
Remove the access plate fasteners and everything is attached to the plate.
In my opinion it is much easier to work on than multiple external pieces and it has to be safer.
Russ Werner recently went with this system and no longer needed to carry extra fuel or had surging problems.
Let me know if you figure out a way to prevent surging without carrying extra fuel and using only one pump without a surge tank.
I would like to lose 18 pounds.
Herman
Extension
I was thinking about having an extension on the outlet fitting that would go to the middle of the tank to help with the surge problem. Not sure yet. My tank will have the access plate in the back so it makes the intank pump harder to work with.
Dan or Rob
Did you have any surge problems. My tank is a triangle with a norrow bottom that holds 7.3 gallons.
Thanks
Jerry
One way that works is to have your fuel cell made with a collector molded into it with trap doors, and a Bosch 044 pump mounted inside. In other words, the pump is surrounded by molded walls with trap doors on 3 sides. This is not the cheap solution, though.Originally Posted by Herman Pahls
Could you fabricate/machine a sump from PVC or Polypropylene? What would be the best material for such a project?
Jerry, a thought: An external "tank" (fed by a low pressure pump) does not need to be very big. For instance, it could be a 2" wide pipe, 6"-8" tall. Perhaps something like that would be easier to find room for. In the extreme, it could be just barely big enough to accomodate the three required AN fittings.
I really like the 2-pump, external tank layout. It has several advantages, such as the ability to run the tank dry (and not having to carry extra fuel) and having the pumps within easy access. If the low pressure pump sucks a bit of air, no big deal.
One thing I don't like about the external tank fed by a low pressure pump is that you have a small (often sheet metal) container of fuel outside the fuel cell bladder. The odds are decent that it is going to be dumped somewhere hot in a serious crash.
Could you place a small surge tank inside the fuel cell?
Yes, unfortunately that's true. All you can do is try to protect it as best you can, but you're right.
You can put a surge tank inside if your cell has a large enough access plate.
Here is what I had made in a case (Piper F2000) where the shape of the cell didn't allow trap doors on 3 sides.
They used machined aluminum trap doors with O-ring seals and feed ramps, plus a low profile pickup and a custom adapter to attach it to a Bosch 044. All of this cost an arm and a nipple, but geometry didn't leave many options, and I didn't want an external tank.
On the Citation FB, there is room for 3 plastic trap doors on 3 sides of the pump.
Fuel Safe has off the shelf collectors with trap doors, assuming they would fit your application.
Some people have no problem with just a pump in the bottom of the tank with no collector or even a single external pump.
Jerry,
If your cell narrows toward the bottom and is triangle shaped you should not have a problem with surging. Just make sure the fuel pick up is located at the bottom. The newer 98+ Van diemen cells are diamond shaped and taper inward at the bottom. I have drained the cell with my fuel pump and had lees then a cup (8oz) of fuel left when I opened up the inspection plate and inspected the foam.
Dan, was that test done in the garage or after a track session?
On the track the fuel is moving/sloshing, and as soon as the pump sucks air, that air is going to make it to the injectors. That might happen when there is still a gallon or two in the cell.
With the external tank, the engine will never see air until the cell is (almost) completely empty. That means there is far less chance of the engine running lean.
Late model VDs seem to have no problem with just a pump in the bottom of the tank.
This is what my tank will look like. Everything goes in through the back access plate. It's 10.5" wide at the bottom.
Jerry
This is very similar to early VD tanks and it was an issue for us. If you are concerned about the fire hazard issue I am sure that Eagle or Fuel safe could build you a 1 or 2 pint tank that could be used as your accumulator.
Wow, that's what I'm thinking about;
Nice work Josh!
I am not concerned about running an in-tank electrical fuel pump within the fuel cell, given their universal street car use. With one in-tank pump located within an open topped sump, 3 ramped/o-ringed trap doors feeding it (see Fuel Safe), and the regulator return plumbed into the sump as well, all the fuel should be accessible.
I feel like an external surge pot and lo+hi pressure pumps are too exposed to damage.
Rick Kean
Fuel Safe did all the work. It works, but as I said, it was expensive. About $2k for the cell including the pump. Those O-ring trap doors are like $200 each, the low profile pickup is about $150, a Bosch 044 is at least a couple hundred bucks, etc.
Russ,
On track after run out of fuel left me with just under 1 quart in the cell. I ran out at turn 13 at Rd AM last season. The engine started cutting out in turn nine and was done running just after Turn 12.
Jerry,
You will have slosh with this flat bottom cell unless it was pictured upside down then it would be a whole lot better.
fuel system
Jerry
Use a track-day and drive like you are racing until the engine starts to miss which will most likely be in the corners.
Pump out and measure the remaining fuel.
Try to do this several times to see if consistant results.
Then add at least 1/2 gallon for reserves and 4-5 gallons for a 30 minute race depending on the track.
You will need this information regardless of using internal or external pumps or using a surge tank.
If the image of your fuel cell is to scale, the cell cover appears to be big enough to allow whatever you want to put in the cell.
I believe fuel safe makes a rubberized "black box" surge tank (that can be folded in order to get into the cell) for approx. $300. that has check balls that allow fuel in but not out and is held in place with the cell foam.
I also believe the black box is intended to have the fuel pump inside this box.
My curiosity wants to know why not place the fuel pick-up to your external pump in this black box instead of a pump?
I have had great success with an external pump other than having to pack 3 extra gallons to prevent air from getting to the injectors.
Herman
The picture is to scale. It is a 6" x 10" plate that ATL has. The picture is the way it sits in the car. (flat bottom). I have been looking at the black boxes and thought that would be the best way. I also agree that you could put the pickup in the black box for an external pump. Got to figure out the cheapest, best way and go with that. Thanks for the info everyone.
Jerry
The MSD/Mallory pump referenced above does work, but I don't like the hose connections that it uses. The bosch pump has metal metric sized end fittings that AN adaptors can be screwed into and this makes the install a lot cleaner.
I use a two inch aluminum tube about five inches tall for my accumulator tank with an .060" bleed hole orifice back to the tank.
Fuel system design
10rmotor
I would like more info on your 2"x5" accumulator.
It must be in the tank if it has a bleed hole.
Is it a 2 pump system inside the cell and if not how is the system designed.
Where is the bleed hole on the accumulator; top or bottom
Thanks Herman
The bleed hole/hose could be returned to the cell and be mounted outside as a scavenge tank for the pressure pump for the motor. Two pumps required.
DING DING DING!!!
Herman, the bleed hole is on top. I welded a -4 male port on the top plate, and then drilled a hole in it before welding it to the top. I used a -4 only because I had a surplus of -4 hoses with crimped ends that were long enough. Since the hose passes into the drivers compartment it needs to be steel braided. I use a facet low pressure pump to feed it and the MSD pump referenced above, though I have a spare bosch pump as a spare ready to go if it dies. If you want more info you can PM me or call, you have my #.
I've been a little disconnected since friday. I sent my drawings to ATL and Fuelsafe for a quote. I talked to both companies about the (black box, collector) whatever you want to call it. They both said I could use that with the pickup inside the collector and have and external pump instead of the intank pump. Only thing I didn't really like about that was they both wanted to have the pickup run up to the access plate at the top of the cell instead of come out at the bottom center for safety reasons. I'm worried about fuel pickup problems but they said it wouldn't be a problem. So that is the way I'm going to go. I guess I can always put the pickup at the bottom later if there is a problem or run the intank pump.
Jerry
Jerry
Did they spell out why the fuel lines would be safer going to the top of the cell versus the bottom? Header proxcimity even with a firewall?
I ask because my cell only has backside access including the filler neck.
Did you get info. on the size and cost of the black box if that is the direction you are going?
I appreciate this subject since I have been wanting a surge tank system that only required one external pump.
Thanks Herman
Herman,
They didn't want the pickup at the bottom because they were afraid that it would get knocked off easier in an accident. They will put it in the bottom if you request that. The older 93 VD cell I had in my old car had the pickup in the bottom. The plastic black box from Fuelsafe with ball checks is $155. The plastic one with the trap doors is $320. It is smaller than the on from ATL. (6" X 6" X 4" tall). The one from ATL is (6" x 6" X 5"). [Going from memory because I left my info paper at home this morning. The black box from ATL I believe is $220. Both companies have the flexible container but they are about twice as expensive. That would be the way to go if you have a small opening in your tank for acces.
Jerry
Custom bladder
Well, here's the custom fuel bladder that Fuel Safe is building. It will use one external pump and has the collector box inside with ball checks. The ball checks work just like the flaps but are $200 cheaper. Fuel safe wanted $1150 and ATL wanted $1850. Not a hard decision there. Hopefully it gets here for Christmas. I'll let you know how it works this spring.
Jerry
One trap door flows as much as 2 ball checks. And the trap doors work down to a lower level. You will probably be fine with ball checks, just saying there are times when one might want the more expensive trap doors.
Didn't mean to imply that the ball checks worked exactly like the doors. Just the same principle. I want the more expensive option all the time. Just not possible for me.
Jerry
Most likely you do not need the more expensive trap doors, assuming your cell allows the checks to be mounted as low as possible (didn't look at your PDF yet) and isn't marginal on capacity.
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