I agree Jon, I supported the open shifting proposal for F1000 with a letter to the BOD & the CRB.Originally Posted by ASRF1000
I was simply pointing out that simple low cost solutions do exist.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
I agree Jon, I supported the open shifting proposal for F1000 with a letter to the BOD & the CRB.
I was simply pointing out that simple low cost solutions do exist.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
i am in, when is my test? jeremy
It's already been done...
Brandon on the Geartronics at the 2010 Sprints
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
Stan, am I misreading? Who got to drive Brandon's car?
Your confusing concern and complaining. I'm not complaining and no longer have a vested interest in the class. My only interest is in it's success.Why the need to creep is beyond me. The cars are great with stock motors, push-pull cable shifters etc.
What needs to happen is similiar to what happened when we (I believe it was Sean, Mike, Rob & myself) wrote the orig rules.
Creep? What creep? You wrote the rules to allow assisted shifting, and now that people are actually using exactly what you allowed, it is suddenly "creep" ?
You wrote the rules to allow "bodywork" out to the middle of the rear tires, and suddenly at last years Runoffs, Brandon and Schweitz's bodywork - configured exactly as was discussed publicly here on this forum - became highly controversial, and very nearly declared illegal.
You wrote it, you were warned about what you wrote in some areas, and now you are seeing the fruits of your labor.
And so far, I'd say that the product is pretty damned good.
You should be patting yourself on the back instead of complaining!
5k shifters is creep. Ever-evolving motors is creep, and I don't even know about the "possibilites that some genius could exploit" that your always eluding to. The price of entry seems to be going up, and that seems to be effecting the growth of the class.
Richard we involved you in the rules process as much as we could. I do recall you pointing out that we had a lot of holes, but don't recall you offering much in terms of filling them but as you already pointed out, my memory is suspect.
I'm sorry the 40lbs will effect the Citation more than other chassis but that has nothing to do with me. I just want the class to be successful and believe that cost containment is the key.
I already said the rules may need some attention for the long term success of the class. Maybe someone in the class will care enough to do something about it, or maybe it will be fine as-is. Guess time will tell.
Sean O'Connell
1996 RF96 FC
1996 RF96 FB
2004 Mygale SJ04 Zetec
Hmm, interesting that $5K would be scaring people away from racing in the class.Originally Posted by JEREMY HILL
i have had numerous people talk to me about the class and they have all told me the potential to have to spend an extra 5k is what has scared them off,
I spent more than that this season on tires, and that's using just 4 new tires per weekend of racing. Heck, my fuel costs - for towing to and from the races - was nearly $4k.
So a $5k investment for a shifting system that lasts for years seems inexpensive in comparison.
Just my $.02 (which is about what I have left after racing this season).
John
People are going to spend a lot more than $5k on 7" and 9" wheels, aluminum brakes or aero development (go price wings and diffusers then realize that some of the fast guys already have specific aero packages for different tracks and weather conditions). FC guys spend way more than $5k on their gearbox's maintenance.
I have talked to a lot of people about the class and most of them have thought that Brandon's steering wheel with the cool little carbon paddles on it was the coolest part of the car. I have heard the same thing from prep shops with cars available without the geartronics.
I don't think it is a coincidence that we have had zero growth in the class since all of the sandy ******s exploded at the runoffs last year and since then. But, I think the most likely explanation is that we have poached off all of the available participants from other classes that we are going to find right now. Hopefully the pro series makes it a little bit easier to steal racers from other classes.
Why the snark? Brandon offered an unrehearsed evaluation of the Geartronics right after the first event he drove it at. I am totally confident that if it had been a waste of time and money that Brandon would not have hesitated to say so. As it is, his summary was,"...I can't imagine going back to manual shifting..."
PS - Off to Monterrey...you guys have fun!
PPS - Change of plans...not going to Monterrey today.
Last edited by Stan Clayton; 09.30.11 at 1:16 PM.
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
If I understand correctly, the posts that are against "$5K" shifters have assumed that mechanical shifters are free. Yet another example of the logical fallacies running rampant through this thread.
Humans figured out how to argue constructively and reach logical conclusions thousands of years ago (Google "logical fallacies").
Wasn't intending any snark. Sorry if it came across.
Of course the system is better. I just would like some of the opponents to get some experience with the system to see WHY it's better, and to see for themselves if they really think there is a lap time advantage.
why the sudden change of mind?
Correct. I have a design in mind for a mechanical shifter that would solve the problems people are having with getting their downshifts in on time. It would be neither cheap nor easy to build (probably need a 5-axis to make the important part). It would also create a much bigger gap between the haves and have nots. At least the fancy shifters are available to everyone. Going back to mechanical shifters would give the advantage to the competitor with the best fabrication capabilities.
It seems to me like he is saying that the geartronincs IS a competitive advantage.
If so, does it not raise the bar by $5000, if you hope to be competitive?
Cool. Then do it and be able to race 40# lighter for your trouble.
I agree. There will always be those trying to make a better mousetrap. Assisted shifters can be bought off the shelf with no development required. I can foresee someone coming up with some sort of mechanical shifter that's "the one to have" and with it priced the same as a Geartronics or Pro-Shift or whatever. Nothing to stop the cost escalation there with a mechanical only rule. So, the cost factor is really not the issue, is it?
You allowed open shocks, and some that are available can cost upwards of 12k a set. - BUT, 12k shocks are not mandatory to have a front running car.
You allowed assisted shifting, and now someone has come up with a pretty damned nice system that costs around 5k. BUT, a 5k system is not mandatory to have a front running car.
You allow both converted FC cars and bespoke design cars, with converted cars costing 10-30k less than a bespoke design, BUT a converted car design has won the Sprints AND the Runoffs (contrary to the belief of some, both the Piper and the Citation started life as FF/FC designs).
It seems that the only consistent bitchin' point is that the Geartronics costs so much. BUT, if that really isn't the issue, then why is it the only one being pointed out?
I'd suggest that you go back and re-read the hundred or so pages of forum discussions when you guys were writing the rules - THAT was where I (and everyone else) had the vast majority of my/our input. Some stuff you fixed when it was pointed out, some you ignored (like the bodywork issue).
For the last time, I no longer build cars. Interested input on occasion, and some parts, but that's it.
If this 40 lb rule goes through, I can build around it using only pneumatics, and accomplish almost the same thing that the Geartronics does - but the first system will cost somebody at least 20k, and subsequent copies maybe 6k.
So much for cost containment being the reason behind this proposal.
Cost containment is up to the competitor - he/she can build a $30k car if they want, and if smart and resourceful enough, a 30k car could be a winner. OR, they could spend 150k, and MAYBE have a winner - most likely would be a winner, but cubic dollars is not a guarantee of success if it isn't spent correctly.
retracted
Last edited by ASRF1000; 09.30.11 at 1:59 PM.
It is not a sudden change of mind. I changed my position on this a couple of months ago after much conversation with Brian. This does not mean that I am at all in love with the assisted shifting deal. It is simply a fact that the cat is out of the bag and I think that the acrimony displayed by many over this issue is hurting the class.
That said, we will have to pop for the $5K if we want to race at the very pointy end of the field. It is an advantage & that is simply a fact of life.
Jay Novak
Jon,
I am disappointed. You're usually a voice of reason 'round these parts, but this general sentiment and attitude is completely unfathomable and inappropriate. This is a club, and an inclusive one at that.
Cheers,
Rennie
I apologize and have retracted my post. I guess I'm just letting it get to me, when I shouldn't. I keep forgetting the "club" aspect of this class. Thank you for your insight.
Jon
Last edited by ASRF1000; 09.30.11 at 2:18 PM.
He doesn't say that there and he doesn't say that in person. He says it is cool and he says it is faster. Brandon had a mechanical shifter in his car that was already getting the shifts in on time.
Funny. I sell cars for Firman and am Series administrator for the F1000 Pro Series and I've heard nothing but the opposite. I've had more than a dozen people this year alone tell me they want to get into F1000 and one of the reasons they do is that these cars are new, and have a "wow factor" in that they can have paddle shifters just like F1 and IndyCar. These are guys with money, are willing to buy the cars and get into the class and this is what they want to see. Not some 1950 version of mechanical levers. They want the latest hi-tech stuff. They want the shifters.
What's keeping them out right now and sitting on the fence is the constant meddling in this class by the CRB and the constant bickering. It has destablized everything. They aren't sure if this class is going to be around in 2 years. I have to constantly convince them that this ain't Formula BMW, Formula Altantic, FranAm, or any of a dozen other now defunct Formula car classes.
This class has the potential to be HUGE!! And it's being held back by a couple of cry babies sobbing about an expense that ain't even neccessary and is peanuts on the scale of what we spend on tires, shocks, data systems, etc...Listening to you all is like attending a convention for the irrational. It's stunning. Your blather has spooked more intelligent people from getting involved in this class than you can even imagine.
Last edited by Thomas Copeland; 09.30.11 at 2:52 PM. Reason: I loves my edit button...
I have never once said that there is *NO* advantage. I just think that in qualifying, say, over the course of one lap that the advantage is quite small and I don't think that I can measure it.
The more important advantage for me is that, with the mechanical linkages that I tried to make work, about 1 time out of 10, or about 1 time per session or race, I would struggle to get all the downshifts completed properly at a place like T5 at Road America. That can be distracting and cost some time, I'd say 0.5 sec every time that it happened.
The thing that continues to impress me the most about the system is the mechanical sympathy. I can't shift gears as smothly or with as little driveline shock as this system. I'm a big fan of being easy on the equipment and this shifter does it better than I can.
It's also just very, very cool and fun to drive.
I could have tried harder to work on my mechanical linkage, but instead I chose to install a good, reliable, and mechanicaly sympathetic air-shifter that had been in use on FB cars for about a year before I decided to try that path. I didn't blaze the trail, I just decided that this path might solve a problem that I was struggilng with.
And here we have the voice of leadership. Do you know how I know you're not interested in seeking a solution to the issue in a meaningful and rational way?
Cheers,
Rennie
Yeah, basically sums up how I feel about this topic now. A real waste of resource and time. Got my ticket for Vegas in hand. Got some nice company going wth me. Yeah...more important stuff to do now.
Who do you guys like on Sunday Raiders or Patriots? I'll be at the Caesar's sportsbook.
This particular system is $5k. You will find others with similar functionality for far less money, and even the geartronics prices will eventually come down. At the moment, they own the top spot in this field, and provide significant added value to your racing program that is very difficult to achieve otherwise. They are selling the business value of the product, not its intrinsic value. As these systems become more prevalent and developed by a larger field of competitors, you will find that eventually these types of systems become commodities, driving the price down. New technology is always expensive, especially in racing.
But the bottom line is that a $5k system is not required to be competitive. The main advantage that it brings, in a performance sense, is that it probably allows you to be far more consistent and concentrate more fully on your driving. Many system - all of them much cheaper than the Geartronics - will allow essentially the same.
People pile on to the Geartronics because it is prevalent and very expensive, but the truth is that it is a single data point which skews the discussion into the absurd.
Cheers,
Rennie
Wow, is $5000 really that big of a deal?? I know it isn't cheap but it's totally in line with auto racing. You can easily spend close to that in a new wing package for dauntless or radon or whoever else. Not to mention $3000 on a data system or even something as stupid as a paint job. Is the geartronics an advantage? Sure but so is anything else you do to the car (or why would you do it)' is it expensive? Not really compared to all the money you'll need to spend in racing cars.... Is all relative and if you don't need one to be fast than great but I'm sure that You'll find somewhere else on the car to spend it.
By all means then, throw your toys out of the pram and sulk. Look, the problem you are having at the moment stems from the fact that you frame the problem thusly: if your opinion is different from mine, it's a stupid f*cking opinion, and you're f*cking stupid for having thought it. Little wonder you feel like you're not getting any traction.
And I'll mention this again: I don't think it's a particularly elegant solution, but y'all talking about how the class is getting destroyed because there is constant destabilization and bickering is just absolute nonsense. There is open and frank discussion around the question of shifting assistance - but where else exactly is there any kind of controversy at all? 40lbs is not the end of the freaking world, no matter how long and hard you wave your hands around. It's just not, and I think the saner elements of the world would probably appreciate it if everybody stopped framing the conversation in such a way as to portray a minor squabble over 40lbs of lead as if we were smack dab in the middle of a Mad Max movie. The gap in establishing stability is simply not that large, if only everybody would look around and recognize that fact and step back from their brinksmanship for just a measly moment.
The advantage in outright pace is not terribly large from the current generation of shifters (even the best of them), and 40lbs is probably too much of a penalty. Ballpark 20-25lbs, and be done with it.
Cheers,
Rennie
There will always be places to spend money, in all classes. We all know what happens in the spec engine realm, with respect to mix+match parts and finding that magical combination.
But you know what - it doesn't matter that you can spend money on everything else. The question at hand is whether or not we want to encourage spending on THIS particular area of the car.
Cheers,
Rennie
No Rennie, just really tired of flogging this dead chipmunk. "It's dead Jim".... and this time it really is. Can't reason with people that won't listen.
Wrote a letter to the BOD. All I can do. Nothing here is going to do anything else but upset me.
Vegas awaits....
If this thread were an animated .gif, it would be:
Ballpark 0 pounds for installing a system that is legal per the current rules and we are good. 25 pounds is still outrageous, that is the same penalty that FA pays for going to an entirely different type of transmission on a car that weighs much more. Where, by the way, FA guys are putting shift systems on their cars too. Much, much more expensive systems than the geartronics. FB is being picked on.
There is some other controversy, it just hasn't spilled on to apexspeed. There would be a lot more controversy if the whiners knew what was actually going on and how much it costs and the availability.
Love the animated gif. Still I think my "F**K it I'm going to Vegas" has got it beat...
FA as a class has a very different philosophy from FB, as I'm sure you know. Nobody cares about shifting systems in what is already widely considered to be a class with a "bring a big bag of cash" mentality. 25lbs is also the same FA penalty for carbon tubs and fuel injection. And on the subject of the 25lbs sequential shifting penalty - have there not been numerous arguments on this very board that the ability to skip directly to a lower gear without having to row through them all would actually constitute an advantage for downshifting FB's?
By all means, tell us about the other controversy then.
Cheers,
Rennie
They are both restricted classes and FA already has a precendent for weight penalties for things. FB grew from FF and FC, which do not.
noBy all means, tell us about the other controversy then.
Swing and a miss - I suspect Jeremy Hill, or any Zetec powered competitor might have a slight issue with this statement. Aluminum heads ring any bells? Yes, it's an example of more poor behavior from the CRB, but here's the thing - it doesn't matter. As long as folks like you insist on bitching from the peanut gallery instead of becoming meaningful contributors within the process, you're just making noise.
So, in other words, said controversy is the Canadian Girlfriend of controversies. She's totally hot, but we wouldn't know her. You're sitting on a powderkeg that would allow you once and for all to truly frame the Geartronics issue as small and insignificant, and you want to say nothing about it? Mkay.
Cheers,
Rennie
I have written polite letters to the CRB and the BOD. I have discussed it with members of the FSRAC and BOD. FC does not currently have a weight penalty in it, FF effectively does not since no one is going to actually run a cortina.
They might not be quite the powderkeg you say, but they are definitely more of an advantage than the geartronics. The nice thing is that the whiners are also kind of clueless, so why give up an advantage that they don't know about yet.So, in other words, said controversy is the Canadian Girlfriend of controversies. She's totally hot, but we wouldn't know her. You're sitting on a powderkeg that would allow you once and for all to truly frame the Geartronics issue as small and insignificant, and you want to say nothing about it? Mkay.
I agree that maybe it could have been put in a different way, but the point is well taken that what is scaring more people away from looking at getting involved in F1000 is the concern over rules stability and all the in-fighting about what should and shouldn't be. A lot more so than the cost of a shifter system.
There will always be those who want certain systems and those who don't. If something is open to being let in or not, it really needs to come down to what the majority of the class wants, if this is going to be a real "club" aspect. That's the way most clubs operate.
Since these shifter systems are already approved by the rules, the only decision is whether 40 lbs is a correct penalty or not. As this is the question at hand. This decision should be made by the members of the class. It should not be just some arbitrary number thrown out by some one or some entity.
We as independent pro series don't have the parameters and guidelines that a club has, therefore we can set the rules as we feel are correct. They may not be correct in everyone's eyes, but the rules are the rules. And we will provide the stability that is needed for this class.
I believe that the best thing for this class is that the rules be stable. There should not be a moving of goal posts. The rules as they are now are fine with clarification. The 2011 runoffs was not won by a car with a system like the geartronics. No where, even in the west coast pro series, has such a system won in over whelming fashion. If such a system was cleaning up and not available to everyone, then I could see the question being risen. But it has not.
The F1000 class is for cars (with driver) to be 1,000 lbs minimum weight, not 1,040, not 1,025, but 1,000. Things will evolve in time. A new engine may come into play that has more stock HP and become the engine of choice. It will still be open to all competitors whether they want to change to the new engine. It's not like we have camaros against mustangs where they can only use their manufacturers brands. All competitors have the free choice of what they want to run.
Will there be costs associated with the changing of engines? Of course, but we are in auto racing, not stick and ball sports. Racing is expensive, no matter how you look at it. It's not a sport for the faint hearted. You could spend only $20K for a car, but if you wad it up in turn 3, you've just pissed away all your money.
Expense is a relative term. I'm all for having a formula be as low cost as possible so more can play, but when you look at the F1000 class, it already has all the right aspects to it. Low cost (in relationship to other classes), high performance, great look and sound, etc.
To put costs in perspective, a new turn-key F1000 car (by some of the top manufacturers) is going to cost you around $55K. A new Van Dieman for the USF2000 series (turn-key) will end up costing you around $95K and also put into perspective the performance difference between the two classes and all the advanced aspects of FB. It's really a relatively low cost equation. Of course you can buy lower cost used cars for either class.
I think what we all need to do is look towards the future of this class and how costs can be contained, not look at what we have now and find ways of defeating their purpose.
Last edited by ASRF1000; 09.30.11 at 4:12 PM.
I think most people are talking about the Stohr type mechanical shifters. A paddle and a cable. I built one for free using some scrap metal laying around the shop. Of course the cable is not free.
Jerry
TPIWWP
Is it not in the rules that any use of the terms "girlfriend" or "wife" must include pictures?
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