Danica starts 25th

[ASRF1000]

One has to wonder, has Danica just gotten that bad, have the others gotten that much better, or is she just riding out the last few races of her IndyCar career? I hope its not the later, as I would hope that any driver would want to make a positive mark on exit from any series.

OK, I've never been a Danica fan, but its not that I don't like female drivers. Simona is one that bears being watched closely in my book. Maybe with the Danica show going away to NASCRAP, the other girls can get their due recognition.

With all that has been going on with Indycar, it's really no wonder why the Europeans don't consider America as a true racing entity. Even the old allure of the Indy 500 has little effect on them. Most european fans think American drivers don't have anywhere near the talent that european drivers do. I strongly disagree, but with what we portray as auto racing (NASCAR, INDYCAR, etc) its no wonder they feel that way. We have better racing going on in the various junior level series out there than the premier ones right now. If you were a first timer watching the Toronto race or New Hampshire race on TV, what would your thoughts be?

IndyCar has become just another spec series and I was hoping to at least see some change in 2012 with different body (aero) packages. But, now that has been put on hold to 2013. It's really amazing to me that here we are, in the worst financial dilema this country has seen and teams are forced to throw their current machines on the trash heap, buy all new equipment and still just have another spec series. What's the point? Is IndyCar taking notes from the government on how to run a business?

Sorry for the rant, but we really need to get on the ball if we expect to be taken seriously.

[Rick Kean]

Kinda like LeMans will soon do for Gurney et al, perhaps Indy should create some form of Demonstration formula that runs concurrently with it's Dallara spec-racers. Relax some regulations, encourage innovation, promote new team formation, perhaps cost capped somehow?... Allow the formula a better power/weight? Stock-blocks, without Penske's $? Open up tire choice?

Shake things up.

Rick

[Paddy O'Brien]

I really am not a fan of how Danica is "marketing" herself but you have to be impressed with her driving given her size if not her gender. Look how close that grid is at Sonoma, Danica is all of 1.1 sec off pole, could you do that? Danica is by far the best woman racer ever, please don't say Shirley Muldowney won more! About ten years ago I had a chance to get the "secret" data from an Atlantic tire test with Danica, Jon Fogarty and one of the hot Mexicans of the time, Garcia? Anyhow, the boys were a couple tenths quicker but Danica was the most consistent by far, her laps all looked identical, the boys were all over the place. Even as an athlete you have to be impressed, she looks fresh as a rose after those 200 mile road races, would you? I admit, the "sparkle princess" is a bit of a poke in the eye of the macho part of racing that we all secretly like, but she is not a bad driver.

[Offcamber1]

One has to wonder, has Danica just gotten that bad, have the others gotten that much better, or is she just riding out the last few races of her IndyCar career? I hope its not the later, as I would hope that any driver would want to make a positive mark on exit from any series.

Being consistantly outqualified by your team mates as she was again today is never good.

But really, Andretti Autosport has generally suffered this year. Missing TK maybe?

[FVRacer21]

IndyCar has become just another spec series and I was hoping to at least see some change in 2012 with different body (aero) packages. But, now that has been put on hold to 2013. It's really amazing to me that here we are, in the worst financial dilemma this country has seen and teams are forced to throw their current machines on the trash heap, buy all new equipment and still just have another spec series. What's the point? Is IndyCar taking notes from the government on how to run a business?

Despite what people say, Indy like all racing, has been a spec series. Remember Marches in the 80's, or Reynards in the 90's. We would like to think they were unique because of the one offs, but did the Swifts and Eagles really win. The last time there was any real innovation was in the late 60's. before ground effects. Even if you give them to the late 70's, you are still talking more than 30 years ago. Think about that....30 years.

Technology is what has messed us up, but we clamor for more technology so we can go faster. NASCAR has fought the technology monster, but next year with fuel injection and ECU are they really that far behind? And talk about a spec class!

F1 is about cubic $$$$s and high tech, but put Vettel or Hamilton in a back marker car and you will still have a back marker.

I think the answer is to put the driver back in control. More horsepower and less traction, less aero and make the brakes work harder.

The new car hopefully will do some of that, but I am still not sure it is enough.

ChrisZ

BTW - the cars are probably used up at this point and better to put money into new cars than throw good money away fixing junk.

[rickb99]

.... Most european fans think American drivers don't have anywhere near the talent that european drivers do.......

I may have to agree with that.

Watched a small part of the Lewis Hamilton / Tony Stewart car trade at the Glen today.

HAMILTON laped the Glen in Stewarts car SEVEN SECONDS faster then Tony... talk about gotcha... LOL

[a. pettipas]

C'mon Rick, lets be fair to Fat Tony... the conditions were totally in favor of Lewis, the track had dried considerably for his run. I doubt LH could lap any faster than TS in similar conditions.

Aaron

I may have to agree with that.

Watched a small part of the Lewis Hamilton / Tony Stewart car trade at the Glen today.

HAMILTON laped the Glen in Stewarts car SEVEN SECONDS faster then Tony... talk about gotcha... LOL

[a. pettipas]

But really, Andretti Autosport has generally suffered this year. Missing TK maybe?

Really? 3 wins this year, 3 different drivers, only Danica remains winless for AA. How many did they win last year when TK was still in the fold?... No disrespect to Tony intended.

Aaron

[dc]

I may have to agree with that.

Watched a small part of the Lewis Hamilton / Tony Stewart car trade at the Glen today.

HAMILTON laped the Glen in Stewarts car SEVEN SECONDS faster then Tony... talk about gotcha... LOL

Hugely unfair to say, as the track was drying from a wet rain condition after they swapped. You also failed to mention that because of the same changing conditions, Tony lapped the Glen in the McLaren faster than Lewis did.





"Danica is by far the best woman racer ever..."

LOL. Is she even in the top 5 of all time? Not ever in any discussion I have ever heard.

[bill gillespie]

Hugely unfair to say, as the track was drying from a wet rain condition after they swapped. You also failed to mention that because of the same changing conditions, Tony lapped the Glen in the McLaren faster than Lewis did.





"Danica is by far the best woman racer ever..."

LOL. Is she even in the top 5 of all time? Not ever in any discussion I have ever
heard.

Hey Doug,
Any of you young bucks ever hear of Denise McCluggage ??

[ASRF1000]

Despite what people say, Indy like all racing, has been a spec series. Remember Marches in the 80's, or Reynards in the 90's. We would like to think they were unique because of the one offs, but did the Swifts and Eagles really win. The last time there was any real innovation was in the late 60's. before ground effects. Even if you give them to the late 70's, you are still talking more than 30 years ago. Think about that....30 years.

Actually, you're forgetting some of the other cars during that time. Lolas were also winners. Remember the Penske chassis that Rick Mears and Al Sr. won in the 70's. Back in the 60's you had Coyote (Foyt), Lotus (Clark), and others. It was a time when IndyCar meant something to the rest of the world.

I long for the ingenuity and innovation that this sport was conceived on.

As far as Danica goes, she and her manager (Dad) have done a tremendous job in marketing her. For that I'll give her #1 status in female drivers, but on the track? In her entire racing career she has won only 1 race in a car (Japan). 1, that's it! Sure, Simona, Bia and others have yet to win an IndyCar race, but look at their accomplishments in the lower ranks. Quite impressive. Danica has marketed her way to the top in exposure, but it hasn't been from winning races.

Bill, yes I remember Denise.

[dc]

Hey Doug,
Any of you young bucks ever hear of Denise McCluggage ??

Oh most definitely. I did an Audi press event with her at Laguna Seca about 12 years ago. Very nice woman, and can still wheel a car.

[FVRacer21]

Actually, you're forgetting some of the other cars during that time. Lolas were also winners. Remember the Penske chassis that Rick Mears and Al Sr. won in the 70's. Back in the 60's you had Coyote (Foyt), Lotus (Clark), and others. It was a time when IndyCar meant something to the rest of the world.

I long for the ingenuity and innovation that this sport was conceived on.

Thanks for reminding me about Lola - Note I said innovation ended in the 70's when Cosworth came along - beside the few Buicks, Cosworth dominated for almost 2 decades. Even Penske kept Marches as backups -

It seems to have peaked in 1984 when only 4 out of 33 cars at the Indy 500 where NOT Marches, and only 3 had something other than a Cosworth. So even in 1984, Indy was a "spec" series. Again over 25 years ago - that is still a long time. If anyone is thinking about the Turbines and 4wheel drive days, even then, Indy car was looked down on by the Sports Car and Formula crowd, and NASCAR was the 600 lbs gorilla nobody noticed.

As far as Danica - lets face it - If she had been with Penske or Ganassi she probably would have more wins. The two that beat her in Atlantics were Fogarty (FV Nat Champion and 2 x Atlantic Champ and Dalziel. Both are having good careers but could not find the right sponsor and team to compete in Indy racing. Think about this - If good looks and money were the only requirement, why isn't Milka 3 time Indy Champ by now????

ChrisZ

[ASRF1000]

Chris,

Milky Donuts? Man, if there ever was a moving chicane....she was it. That's the epitome of Money, looks and no talent, you've got that right.

I understand your thoughts on what makes spec, spec, but the reality is that even though the majority of the field was one make back then, there was still opportunity for innovation from another, whether or not it was the right direction. The reason why so many were Marches back then was because it was the best car in the field, just as is was with Lola later on, etc.

What really makes a series spec is when you can only run one predetermined chassis, as it is currently with Dallara. I believe in cost caps, such as the maximum amount a constructor can charge for their chassis (to keep it from getting out of hand and enabling all teams to be on a somewhat level financial playing field) but I like the opportunity for different manufacturers to come up with different approaches. Of course, one might be better than the other and be THE mousetrap to have at that time, but the innovation used by different engineers is really something to behold. For me it just added another facet to the sport.

Now, it's just turn on the race watch it and turn it off. All the cars are the same and its boring to me. You can root for a driver, but really not for the car anymore. At least there will be a couple different engine manufacturers next season, so that's a plus.

Maybe I'm just a purest at heart, but the technology and innovative concepts of the teams when it wasn't (truly spec) really added more to the show, IMHO.

[FVRacer21]

Maybe I'm just a purest at heart, but the technology and innovative concepts of the teams when it wasn't (truly spec) really added more to the show, IMHO.

You could get your wish - with rapid prototyping, it might someday be able to build a entire car in your garage....

The problem now is not the cost of building the cars, it is the cost of certifying them to the safety specs. By having one manufacturer build everything, including the suspension, if reduces the cost overall. Could you imagine 4 manufacturers trying to build chassis and crash test all of them? That is why Indy costs 10's of millions while F1 cost 100's of millions.

The 2 things I don't like are limits on actual testing and fuel capacity restrictions. I feel too many races are fuel economy runs and not the flat out racing we expect. I am hoping the new car has a larger fuel capacity, or else you can have two fuel cells, one for ovals and one for road courses. The fear of fire has driven the capacity down, but it has had an unexpected effect on races. Dario seems to be the fuel meister, and this has helped him win championships.

New drivers don't get the experience they need just driving simulators - they need more miles on track.

ChrisZ

[ASRF1000]

You could get your wish - with rapid prototyping, it might someday be able to build a entire car in your garage....

LOL, I highly doubt someone's going to have an autoclave that big in their garage, but I get your drift.

ALMS prototypes have to be crash tested as well and there are Lola, Audi, Peugeot, etc. Back in the earlier days, the Lola, Swift, Reynard, Dallara, Gforce, etc also had to be crash tested.

Having spec cars makes it easier for the tech personnel and with a captive audience, a revenue stream for the league. Believe me, there is a cut the league gets for each car sold.

IMHO, its just boring watching the exact same cars race.

[ASRF1000]

What a crappy day for the Andretti bunch:

This morning's practice:

RHR 18th
Conway 21st
Marco 26th
Danica 27th

Spread a little thin? Looks like they need to go back to 2 cars and concentrate on winning....but I guess its all about the $$$ (sponsors).

[dc]

IMHO, its just boring watching the exact same cars race.

While I don't disagree with you that spec racing at the highest levels of motorsport is misplaced, I don't think IndyCar is boring. Boring is watching one team with a money advantage dominate everyone and win every race. Boring is no passing and no chance for more than one or two cars with a chance to win. Spec cars or not, you don't see that in NASCAR or IndyCar anymore.

Frankly, more people would rather see a race with 15 guys with a chance to win on any given race day, than one or two guys who win every race walking away from the field. It's a small minority who would rather have different chassis and engine combinations with one dominant team.

Short memories, but the racing of today is still better than it was 20 years ago.

[DFR Dave Freitas]

Danica finished 7th, 6th and 5th in points her first 3 seasons with Andretti. I wish I could suck as bad as she does. lol

Ya, she is terrible on restarts and isn't aggressive, hell, maybe she still doesn't set up her own car, I dunno, but jeez, give her some credit.

[Offcamber1]

Short memories, but the racing of today is still better than it was 20 years ago.

But the racing 20, 30, 40 years ago actually still involved innovation, something that is sorely missing from most of the higher classes today. Remember when manufacturers participated because racing improved the breed? Remember when marketing included "Win on Sunday, sell on Monday?"

Those days are gone forever, hence my lack of a working TV or cable/satellite connection in my house. It just isn't worth watching anymore.

A few months back a friend sent me a picture of the start of an SCCA Formula Ford race at the Glen, going into turn 1. That's exciting! My comment back was why would someone waste time watching F1 or IRL when the racing is so good at the club level?

[ASRF1000]

OK, maybe boring is not the best word for it...No, boring's the right word. Some of the racing action is pretty good, I'll give you that. What I mean is the cars are boring. I agree that I'd rather watch a race with 15 cars having a chance of winning, rather than one team running away with it. What I miss though is the ingenuity that auto racing was founded on, with different manufacturers competing against each other.

But, unfortunately even with spec cars it still comes down to who has the most money. Ganassi with their own wind tunnel (PA mountain), Penske (unlimited resources), but there are some shinning moments when some of the under dogs make a strong charge. That's what makes the racing itself exciting to watch.

[Michael Edick]

What a crappy day for the Andretti bunch:

This morning's practice:

RHR 18th
Conway 21st
Marco 26th
Danica 27th

Spread a little thin? Looks like they need to go back to 2 cars and concentrate on winning....but I guess its all about the $$$ (sponsors).

Talked to a friend of mine at the IRL race at Sears who used to work on the Indy team...he cashed in his chips because the politics of running a 4 car team was insane. Said that each mechanic had an engineer looking over their shoulder, and the common phase heard all day long was "go f*** yourself".

Sounds like a great place to work!

[R. Pare]

The team lost it's most sane and credible person when John Anderson left.

[Matt King]

Maybe I'm just a purest at heart, but the technology and innovative concepts of the teams when it wasn't (truly spec) really added more to the show, IMHO.

Being a purist in racing terms pretty much relegates you to club racing. Every professional racing series on earth has at least one element that is anathema to the "purists," whether it be a spec engine or tire, aero limits, or other imposed restrictions on unfettered creativity.

[Matt King]

But the racing 20, 30, 40 years ago actually still involved innovation, something that is sorely missing from most of the higher classes today. Remember when manufacturers participated because racing improved the breed? Remember when marketing included "Win on Sunday, sell on Monday?"

The reality today is that "the breed improves racing" not the other way around. Engineering and development resources at the auto companies today are mostly devoted to technologies aimed at improving fuel economy and efficiency, and a lot of that research actually trickles down to the racing programs.

[Offcamber1]

The team lost it's most sane and credible person when John Anderson left.

And with Savoree going the financial and sponsor relationship management vaporised as well.

In sales there is an old truism: Great salesmen don't necessarily make great sales managers. Similarly, great drivers don't necessarily make great team managers. I was suprised that Andretti's team did as well as it did, let alone dominating like they did for a few years.