Apology

[LLoshak]

From my understanding, these test are no longer available via trackside? And all they tested for is DC levels. When sent to a lab, much further evaluation is performed. So, is it possible to pass a DC test but fail the lab test? I'm scratching my head.

The past couple of seasons, I purchase my own fuel (sunoco) in Slinger. I worry to much about the consistancy, cleanliness, how pure of the fuel and condition of the holding tanks because of how we tune our motors to the ragged edge. The runoffs is the only time I use track fuel but its the same fuel we use and tune for, all season. I also have a wideband in the car at all times to always monitor any possible changes and/or catch possible melt downs. But I dont expect anyone to be as anal as me, I lose a lot of sleep over things like this, some call me crazy.

But up until then, I always used track fuel. But when buying 110 leaded for $9, its not that bad of a mark up to swallow. But for guys wanting 93, it seems a bit steep. But usually a car needs a max of 20 gallons a weekend. So, its less than $100 extra than hauling a bunch of gas around yourself, not to mention taking the time to go pick it up and barrel deposits etc. So, add ones time, plus gas to drive a truck round trip to pick up race gas, the risk of hauling it around and the risk of being legal, the $100 doesn't sound too steep.

Also, I wanted to add to this whole topic. 6-8hp or whatever this fuel might give is proportionate to your tuner and tuning. I see alot of people running Bazzaz auto-tunes and some just adjusting fuel psi up and down. My point is, you can easily find 6-8hp with any fuel, through a good tune with a talented tuner who cares.

If its not fuel, its the shifters. If its not shifters, its frontal area or floors or weight... THere will always be people who are always going to look for the next best thing, the next edge. It's evolution. I guess my real point is, concentrate to be extracting 100% out of what you have. Dont be afraid to make tweaks, think outside the box. Keep good records and dont be scared to try a different set-up. What works for him doesnt mean it'll work for you. Set-up and driver comfort, which equals driver confidence in the car = faster lap times. Too many people get wrapped up with what others have and they dont but are some of the first to go to the beer party when others are still tweaking, thinking.

Dont ask me why all of a sudden I decided to write a inspirational post, I have no idea! But the fact of the matter is, racing is a thinking mans sport. It isnt just pushing on pedals and turning a steering wheel. So ask yourself, are you maximizing your program? BTW, this isnt directed toward anyone, its just me rambling away, to try to energize the brilliance, within us all, to go faster!!!!!!

See you all at the race track!

[Alex Pate]

From my understanding, these test are no longer available via trackside? And all they tested for is DC levels. When sent to a lab, much further evaluation is performed. So, is it possible to pass a DC test but fail the lab test? I'm scratching my head.

The past couple of seasons, I purchase my own fuel (sunoco) in Slinger. I worry to much about the consistancy, cleanliness, how pure of the fuel and condition of the holding tanks because of how we tune our motors to the ragged edge. The runoffs is the only time I use track fuel but its the same fuel we use and tune for, all season. I also have a wideband in the car at all times to always monitor any possible changes and/or catch possible melt downs. But I dont expect anyone to be as anal as me, I lose a lot of sleep over things like this, some call me crazy.

But up until then, I always used track fuel. But when buying 110 leaded for $9, its not that bad of a mark up to swallow. But for guys wanting 93, it seems a bit steep. But usually a car needs a max of 20 gallons a weekend. So, its less than $100 extra than hauling a bunch of gas around yourself, not to mention taking the time to go pick it up and barrel deposits etc. So, add ones time, plus gas to drive a truck round trip to pick up race gas, the risk of hauling it around and the risk of being legal, the $100 doesn't sound too steep.

Also, I wanted to add to this whole topic. 6-8hp or whatever this fuel might give is proportionate to your tuner and tuning. I see alot of people running Bazzaz auto-tunes and some just adjusting fuel psi up and down. My point is, you can easily find 6-8hp with any fuel, through a good tune with a talented tuner who cares.

If its not fuel, its the shifters. If its not shifters, its frontal area or floors or weight... THere will always be people who are always going to look for the next best thing, the next edge. It's evolution. I guess my real point is, concentrate to be extracting 100% out of what you have. Dont be afraid to make tweaks, think outside the box. Keep good records and dont be scared to try a different set-up. What works for him doesnt mean it'll work for you. Set-up and driver comfort, which equals driver confidence in the car = faster lap times. Too many people get wrapped up with what others have and they dont but are some of the first to go to the beer party when others are still tweaking, thinking.

Dont ask me why all of a sudden I decided to write a inspirational post, I have no idea! But the fact of the matter is, racing is a thinking mans sport. It isnt just pushing on pedals and turning a steering wheel. So ask yourself, are you maximizing your program? BTW, this isnt directed toward anyone, its just me rambling away, to try to energize the brilliance, within us all, to go faster!!!!!!

See you all at the race track!

Sounds like you have had a few late nights tweaking as well
Cheers

[brownslane]

I just got back from an extended visit in Britain, and just read about J.R.

Everything that needs to be said already has! Personally I have found J.R. to be a personable, honest and very competitive guy! A gentleman as well.

But THREE MONTHS?!!! That seems a lot for a first offense.

FWIW, it is my opinion.

[Malfred]

Bret lane,

it is my understanding that Aviation Gasoline fuel is legal to use.

Why would 100 low lead from the airport burn up your engine ?

I don't understand why you would have this issue using aviation fuel ?

help me understand.

Thanks.

Mike

[Malfred]

[quoteAvgas
Your the second person to ask me that, maybe "burn up" was a poor choice of words. Avgas is 100LL, and LL stands for low lead. The more Tetra Ethel Lead in the fuel, the cooler it burns. Avgas burns hotter than the same octane leaded fuel you'd buy at the track. As far as I know aircraft engines are designed to run with a hotter combustion.

You can run Avgas, but I don't think it's very good for a bike engine.

Regards......Brett


Bret Lane,

It is my understanding that Aviation Gasoline fuel is legal to use.

Being controled by the FAA rules, i would think it was made to a higher specification than street gas or even Racing gass ?

Aircraft engines are air cooled & work at a very high load factor like a racing engine.

They are different than bike 1000 cc engines in that they are typically a big bore engine - 4 cylinders with 360 cubic inches or 6 cylinders with 540 cubic inches. Rpm is typically 2700 rpm to keep the propeller blade tips from going supersonic.

With a higher lead content that is put there for anti-detination in the cylinders, Why would 100 low lead from the airport burn up your engine ?

I don't understand why you would have this issue using aviation fuel ? Is the flame front that much slower ?

help me understand.

Thanks.

Mike[/quote]

[ASRF1000]

AvGAS, etc. Why is everyone talking so much about what they can and can't use for fuel? Use what the track has to offer, make sure its approved by the organizer and be done with it. Time is money and the less time you spend on figuring out what you can use or going to an airport, or whatever, is money you can spend for the extra few bucks its going to cost at the track.

[Wren]

AvGAS, etc. Why is everyone talking so much about what they can and can't use for fuel? Use what the track has to offer, make sure its approved by the organizer and be done with it. Time is money and the less time you spend on figuring out what you can use or going to an airport, or whatever, is money you can spend for the extra few bucks its going to cost at the track.

There is about a $4/gallon price difference between avgas and track fuel. That is easily $100+ that can be saved over a weekend. I think you would be surprised how much $100 means to a lot of racers.

[starkejt]

I think you would be surprised how much $100 means to a lot of racers.

You're not kidding. $100 will feed my driver for half a day.

[ASRF1000]

I thought that post would get things going.....LOL

What I'm getting at is the organizer has to clearly state what is and what is not legal in the rules. That's the only way there is not going to be an issue. And, they have to be ready and prepared to test fuel and allow teams to test their fuel at the beginning of the weekend, or the point of having a rule is moot.

If not, then there can't be any clear direction of what is and what is not legal. I'm sorry, I'm just not used to this whole club thing. I know it's a place to go racing at a minimal cost. I understand that $100 means alot to many racers, it does to me as well. I know it's a place to have fun and enjoy the sport and I can appreciate keeping costs down as much as possible. Believe me, I do understand that.

The difficulty I have is that its a gray area between having strict rules and having fun. If AVGAS is legal, then that should be the spec fuel and everyone should have to run it. If there is a fuel out there that costs $3 / gal, I'm all for it, but the only way to strictly enforce it is to make it the fuel everyone has to run.

I've been involved in professional racing since I first started in 1987, so I appologize as club racing is all new to me. We always had clear and precise rules. Our costs were more probably, but we either had to accept it or not race. We've always had to run spec fuels, etc.

I just think as long as different fuels are being allowed in the same class, you're always going to have this debate as to what you can run or not. Just my opinion.

I have to remember, in club racing you're not racing for money, but a trophy, so its hard to offset your costs. Racing at the club level is 100% expense with no possibility of any financial return.

[Christopher Crowe]

"Racing at the club level is 100% expense with no possibility of any financial return."

Well, that's true. The only return is the satisfaction one gets. And one great key to anyone getting any satisfaction is to keep the playing field flat. Simple and flat. So:

One fuel. One spiggot for all competitors -- gotten right there at the race track. No more ever even having to consider edgy fuels -- no one worrying that someone else might be getting an edge on them fuel-wise.

I can't believe anyone here wants to get into a chemestry competition to see who can get the last minute bit of horsepower from the fuel they're using... I think people would rather just wholly remove this element of the equation and simply race.

Keep it simple, guys. It's worth the few additional bucks that it might cost. Or, for anyone really has a problem with those few additional bucks... maybe they could start the at-track fuel-concession and make an extra buck instead of spending it.

What percentage of anyone's yearly racing budget could we possibly be talking about when it comes to using race-track fuel? .002%?

This is so very easy to solve. And "one fuel/one spiggot" would also save anyone else from finding themselves in JR's awful (and sad) predicament.

Regards to all,

Chris Crowe

[glenn cooper]

You're not kidding. $100 will feed my driver for half a day.

Sweet Tea
Outta my nose
Onto the keyboard...

[glenn cooper]

"Racing at the club level is 100% expense with no possibility of any financial return."

Well, that's true. The only return is the satisfaction one gets. And one great key to anyone getting any satisfaction is to keep the playing field flat. Simple and flat. So:

One fuel. One spiggot for all competitors -- gotten right there at the race track. No more ever even having to consider edgy fuels -- no one worrying that someone else might be getting an edge on them fuel-wise.

I can't believe anyone here wants to get into a chemestry competition to see who can get the last minute bit of horsepower from the fuel they're using... I think people would rather just wholly remove this element of the equation and simply race.

Keep it simple, guys. It's worth the few additional bucks that it might cost. Or, for anyone really has a problem with those few additional bucks... maybe they could start the at-track fuel-concession and make an extra buck instead of spending it.

What percentage of anyone's yearly racing budget could we possibly be talking about when it comes to using race-track fuel? .002%?

This is so very easy to solve. And "one fuel/one spiggot" would also save anyone else from finding themselves in JR's awful (and sad) predicament.

Regards to all,

Chris Crowe

Very well put.
Clear, concise, succinct.

I'm starting to like this guy...

[Purple Frog]

I'm not sure $100 would last even half a day if he was having to go through Tim Hortons in Canada.

By the way, why isn't he here?

[starkejt]

I'm not sure $100 would last even half a day if he was having to go through Tim Hortons in Canada.

By the way, why isn't he here?

Too many upgrades to do to the car that kept getting put off to make it to the events. Finally just had to skip one to get it all done.

What is $100 US right now? $0.40CAD?

[ASRF1000]

$.95 CDN

[Purple Frog]

$.95 CND if you walk into a bank. Walk into a retail establishment (Tim Hortons) with US dollars and they exchange for about $.77 or you don't get any coffee. ...$.50 cents if you are Fast Matt wearing a Boston Bruins T-shirt.

Most cashiers very pleasantly mumble something like, "Payback is hell."

[starkejt]

Guys, you are off 2 orders of magnitude... $0.95 is 95 cents....

[ASRF1000]

Here's the key....when you're going to a foriegn country, get your money changed at a bank. If you go to almost any country with foreign currency and use it right at the counter, your going to lose.

Pretty simple concept.

[Brett Lane]

Boy, I'm sorry I ever brought up Avgas. I haven't had to type this much since I was selling papers in college!

Again, there is no additional lead for anti-detonation properties in avgas- that's why it's called low lead. In the 80's I flew DC-6's for a while, and if you pulled more than 53 inches(the engines pulled somewhere around 70 inches running 115/145 purple fully leaded fuel), those Pratt's would start detonating-going off like naval cannons at around 115 knots on the runway. Of course that was supercharged horsepower, but that's what happens when you don't run the fuel the engine was designed to run on.

I'm not an expert with fuel, I'm just giving my opinion based on my experience. And it is just my opinion that avgas should be burned in airplanes, and a good race fuel bought at the track should be run in these cars. It's an extra $100 bucks or so, but I think it's worth it.

Brett

[Brett Lane]

And I'm with Jon on the money exchange thing. Or use a credit card...always gives you the best exchange rate at the time of purchase.

Brett

[formulasuper]

Boy, I'm sorry I ever brought up Avgas. I haven't had to type this much since I was selling papers in college!

Again, there is no additional lead for anti-detonation properties in avgas- that's why it's called low lead. In the 80's I flew DC-6's for a while, and if you pulled more than 53 inches(the engines pulled somewhere around 70 inches running 115/145 purple fully leaded fuel), those Pratt's would start detonating-going off like naval cannons at around 115 knots on the runway. Of course that was supercharged horsepower, but that's what happens when you don't run the fuel the engine was designed to run on.

I'm not an expert with fuel, I'm just giving my opinion based on my experience. And it is just my opinion that avgas should be burned in airplanes, and a good race fuel bought at the track should be run in these cars. It's an extra $100 bucks or so, but I think it's worth it.

Brett

I understand the same fuel for everyone preventing cheating, however isn't racing fuel a waste of $ since these stock engines were designed to run on premium pump gas? I also don't understand why pump gas sold at the track has to be so expensive since they don't have to pay road tax on it. I'm not in this class but do run straight pump gas in my Formula S Busa powered Ralt with no problems. I'm just sayin.

[Paul LeCain]

I've found, in Canada at least, that hotels generally give you very close to the 'official' exchange rate.

[ASRF1000]

I understand the same fuel for everyone preventing cheating, however isn't racing fuel a waste of $ since these stock engines were designed to run on premium pump gas? I also don't understand why pump gas sold at the track has to be so expensive since they don't have to pay road tax on it. I'm not in this class but do run straight pump gas in my Formula S Busa powered Ralt with no problems. I'm just sayin.

Simply because the distributors want to capitalize on the market and make the increased margin. Don't forget, most of these tracks don't own the fuel in the ground. Its a petroleum distributor and that distributor has to pay the track so much per gallon for the privelege of selling it. Its basically markup all around. Not that its right, just the reason why its so much higher at the track.

[Daryl DeArman]

I understand the same fuel for everyone preventing cheating

All it does it make tech much easier and prevent you from having to buy the high dollar stuff to be on an even playing field (at least fuel-wise).

I think everybody ought to bring whatever they want to run in a 5 gal jug to pregrid. Coin toss says run what you brung or switch with the guy in front/behind you. No more tech required, 50/50 chance you are going to give your competitor the advantage you were hoping for or get stuck running the crap gas you brought hoping to swap

[Steve Herrod]

Sweet Tea
Outta my nose
Onto the keyboard...

Southern Haiku, wonderful!

[Alex Pate]

All it does it make tech much easier and prevent you from having to buy the high dollar stuff to be on an even playing field (at least fuel-wise).

I think everybody ought to bring whatever they want to run in a 5 gal jug to pregrid. Coin toss says run what you brung or switch with the guy in front/behind you. No more tech required, 50/50 chance you are going to give your competitor the advantage you were hoping for or get stuck running the crap gas you brought hoping to swap

And then melt your motor cause you didn't tune for that 35$/gal exotic fuel

[formulasuper]

And then melt your motor cause you didn't tune for that 35$/gal exotic fuel

That's exactly what I was thinking.

[Daryl DeArman]

In reality, I don't think anybody it going to bring high dollar fuel with a HP advantage if there is a 50/50 chance they are going to give it to their competitor. They'd probably bring something they are okay with running as well as run against.

If the same deal happened with wheels and tires, how many sets of stickers are showing up on the grid? How many sets of rock hard 15 heat cycle tires?

Just trying to think outside the box. Obviously there are a few flaws in the concept

[Alex Pate]

In reality, I don't think anybody it going to bring high dollar fuel with a HP advantage if there is a 50/50 chance they are going to give it to their competitor. They'd probably bring something they are okay with running as well as run against.

If the same deal happened with wheels and tires, how many sets of stickers are showing up on the grid? How many sets of rock hard 15 heat cycle tires?

Just trying to think outside the box. Obviously there are a few flaws in the concept

Just giving you a hard time Daryl. I understand the concept but it becomes rather similar to a claimer series in that way

[Daryl DeArman]

No problem about the hard time. All my solutions can't be brilliant <----that's sarcasm in case it isn't painfully obvious.