I don't believe anyone here has ever questioned his natural talent and speedOriginally Posted by LLoshak
I don't believe anyone here has ever questioned his natural talent and speed
Last edited by Alex Pate; 07.15.11 at 3:29 PM.
I'm with Alex. You ask me to remove my motor, which I am confident is legal, and I say blow me as well!
Too much cheatin going on in FB and it needs to be called out.
Just sayin'
Agree!
But he wasnt cheating, he made a mistake by listening to VP. So for that you think he should get 3 months suspension and get knocked out of the runoffs?? Ok, if we look at it that way, when you come in under wieght, I'll tell you, you should have known, call you a cheater and request a 3 month suspension as well. C'mon.
Again, he was not caught with NO2 or a hidden tank running some crazy custom fuel or trying to pull a fast one on anyone. I mean, he had the barrel in plain view in his trailer and showed it to the guy the night before the race. Who had no problem hanging out all night, being friendly and then protests.
They're always be cheaters. Usually its to make up for lack of talent and usually, never make it to the podium anyway.
JR is not a cheater. Thats the point. And he should not be treated like one.
Lawrence Loshak
'13 FB & HP National Champion
'10 DSR National Champion
'06 EP National Champion
I would do exactly the same thing. But then again, I'm not fighting for a championship nor do I care what the stewards think of me. I'm going to assume you're not fighting for a championship either, as I believe was the case with JR. Swapping the motor might have been a lot of work, but if it keeps the stewards happy, whatever. Flipping them the bird sounds great on a forum, but when you need the points.. Maybe not so much.
Please get the facts right. He was over there for about 10-20 min talking. I came over Hal way through and we were talking about why the citations are so fast. After we got back he told me JR was using u4 and he straight up told him it's not legal in a qualify or race
Just sayin
Please dont disect what I may have wrote because I wasnt there (Im going off of what I was told) all that does is smoke screen the problem at hand. This isnt about me.
If you dont care that a leading driver and the manufacturer were just taken out of the runoffs because of a mistake and NOT cheating, well, dont write a letter to help.
For a class that needs every driver right now, Im not sure how this is helpful.
We all agree cheating is BS. But punishing a guy who is not a cheater and giving him the maximum with no prior history, is also BS.
Lawrence Loshak
'13 FB & HP National Champion
'10 DSR National Champion
'06 EP National Champion
Egads!
Cheese and rice, Maing - Is that really what you read into my post?
Man, this thread has gone sideways and inverted, finally into a flat spin w/ no hope of pulling out of a death spiral!
For the record - I was complimenting JR on kicking a few 500GP Motorcycle World Champions arse's.
GC
Sometimes, typing can be misread,In this case, I think you did , if you read that I was being critical of JR or the other competitors. My point was that even with inferior fuel, JR has the talent to win, and it was possibly a mistake as to what he put in the cell.
I didn't mean anything offensive to you or that post, Coop. My point was that that he has talent and that the protest was possibly the only way that the others could win, by nitpicking. I apologize if I came across any other way.
This forum is becoming such that I almost don't want to post here anymore, because anything that's said is being analyzed so much and taken out of context. But then again, it's probably me, because I don't articulate well..........
I complimented a paid advertiser's service a week ago, and got basically told that I was an idiot for buying used tires.
I am here to learn, and establish contacts in the racing community. I have done business with many folks here and have been straight up and have never taken advantage of anyone, ask ask around.
I really enjoy the "Coop Chronicles." Good reading, factual and entertaining, from a real racer's point of view.
Last edited by marshall9; 07.16.11 at 10:00 AM. Reason: last statement was not necessary
You're right, if it was a guy with his own conversion that was 5th in points in his division of 6 FB cars the penalty would be fine.
If it was FV, SM or SRF the penalty would be fine.
It's not the maximum penalty for such an infraction either, but why let facts support your argument?
If the penalty seems too harsh and JRO is a great guy, write a letter in support of appealing the severity of his penalty...but I'd suggest you utilize some logic and valid arguments to support your viewpoint if you hope that it will matter.
Quote: I didn't mean anything offensive to you or that post, Coop. My point was that that he has talent and that the protest was possibly the only way that the others could win, by nitpicking. I apologize if I came across any other way.
The protest was not filed to win the race. It was filed to bring attention to some undesired behavior. Outing someone who is breaking the rules is not good for the class because it makes it a "cheater" class to the outside. I think it's worse though to let such behavior continue. Like it or not with the fall out of this protest I don't believe anyone will chance risky fuel, motors etc. The bar has been set and JR has been made an example
Edited because my phone makes me look illiterate
Last edited by Alex Pate; 07.16.11 at 11:30 AM.
Well said
Gary Hickman
Edge Engineering Inc
FB #76
You guys have to be joking if you think that JR's circumstance is going to keep racers from exploiting the rules for any advantage. Why do you think that a "stock" motor from an engine builder puts out more HP than an eBay motor? All this BS did was to impose an excessive penalty on a competitor for running fuel that does not meet the arbitrary fuel rules of the SCCA. I say arbitrary because the fuel is legal in AMA Pro/Am, CCS, WERA, AFM, NMA, WORCS, SCORE and Best in the Desert. Loss of points for the weekend, penalty points on license and a promise not to run the big bad, kill everyone in the pits fuel again should have been good enough.
Darryl
I understand the fuel won't kill you but I think maybe the 6-8 or 10 horse power that one gets by using the outlawed fuel might be a bit bothersome. It becomes an illegal unfair advantage when someone uses something that everyone is told not to use. Lucian payed the price for using that fuel by melting down his no longer stock motor.
If you can be smart and find some unfair advantage that falls within the rules I will applaud you. It's a hollow victory when you shell out cash to build motors and use illegal fuel to win
I'd suggest that it should keep them from exploiting the FUEL rules. If it doesn't then the penalty wasn't harsh enough. Maybe the next guy will have to be a bigger example.
Lots of rules in the GCR are arbitrary. But it's the rule book that those racing with the SCCA are supposed to follow. If you think one (or many for that matterrunning fuel that does not meet the arbitrary fuel rules of the SCCA. I say arbitrary because the fuel is legal in AMA Pro/Am, CCS, WERA, AFM, NMA, WORCS, SCORE and Best in the Desert.) of the rules suck, then work to change them or race elsewhere.
Where did that opinion come from?
When I talked to the Tech Steward the issue with Lucian's engine had nothing to do with fuel. Rather, some "ridges" that seemed to be missing when viewed with a bore scope (that was true of "several" engines viewed).
BUT, no way was tech about to say the engine was illegal without a complete tear down which they were unwilling to do.
If I recall correctly, Lucian changed out that engine just to be safe.
Last edited by rickb99; 07.17.11 at 2:34 AM.
CREW for Jeff 89 Reynard or Flag & Comm.
Daryl, What I was making reference to is that the fuel rule is more difficult to comply with than other rules such as engine size limitations, after race weight, very specific information regarding engine components, tire/wheel sizes and so on. To be absolutely certain about the legality of fuel you have to send it to a lab and then hope that the fuel composition is stable from drum to drum. And you are very correct about changing the rules that I think suck. I have been active on that for over 10 years with limited success.
Yo Darryl - That one is easy, and I'm pretty sure you know the answer.
For the same reason a freshie from Drummond for your FM will perform better than a used engine which has potentially:
a) suffered untold overheat episodes
b) new apex seal springs - better compression
c) new bearings with proper clearances
d) No crusty carbon on the rotor faces
e) No side seal sticking due to exhaust gas residue and oil gumming
These sight unseen, pig-in-a-poke "EBay Special" motorcycle engines may have been sitting in a crashed bike in a salvage yard, awaiting insurance company final disposition or months, laying on their side, fuel tank missing, airbox askew, rain water dripping in and filling the cylinders.
Or maybe Johnny stunta had wheelied the thing 7 miles down I-10 with resultant drop or NO oil pressure.
Perhaps Johnny 1/4 miler Wanna Be has "speed shifted" the dogs straight offa 2nd gear.
Had the oil changed once in 10k miles.
Not to mention the intake and exhaust valve sealing capability on old vs fresh - even w/ only 5 or 6 k miles and who knows how many times it's bounced off the limiter - you know that virtually all the power gains are in the head/valve sealing.
Installing a used engine w/o having it gone through is like Russian Roulette w/ 5 chambers loaded.
Bottom line, my most respected Brutha from another Mutha - the question is not even valid...
Darryl, understood. It is easier to abide by some of the rules in the GCR than others. We are all putting some trust in 3rd party info before we go out on the track. However, it is ultimately our responsibility and it would seem the very first post in this thread was accepting that responsibility.
Maybe all the FB folks at a National pool their fuel money and fill up their jugs with the same stuff from the same drums...they all share the same risks, unless somebody decides to use something different.
BS, U4 didn't melt anything, I and just about anyone that races motorcycles have been using it for at least 7 years and it never did anything to any engine I've ever seen. U4 hardly burns.
Btw: I love the way it smells
Alex -
I'm with JP on this. (JP, send MO or Cert Cash Ck for $10 to my addie on file)...
Shouldn't you be perusing wedding planner catalogs, and center piece floral arrangements? Groomsman gifts?
Takin from our motorcycle history
Coop, me bro, you are right on target with the eBay special scenario. You have been in this motorcycle engine game longer than most and you should remember the discrepancy in performance that existed in the "stock" motor classes when we were racing bikes. The expensive engine builders buy a boat load of parts and find the ones that offer an advantage. Such as the lightest and/or longest pin to pin rods, pistons, piston pins, camshafts, gears and clutch assemblies. They then take every tolerance to the max according to the manual or their interpretation of it. Damn the longevity of the engine, it will haul ass. All of the machine work done to each and every component to eek out that last bit of performance adds up to the total package when done. I did not consider these to be "as run in the bike" stock motors then and don't consider it now, but that is the game. Not that I am sour about it, but I did get beat for the WERA 750 Stock championship by a Smokin Joe's Honda(DuHammel's) and a Yoshimura Suzuki(Russel's) at Road Atlanta a life time ago. Passed'm in the corners and got blown off the track down the straights. Just trying to make a point that racers will exploit rules for an advantage no matter what the consequences and I still feel that JR's punishment does not fit the crime.
^^^^ I like this guy
If the builder is doing machine work that is not in the factory service manual (and there is almost none in the Suzuki FSM) then the engine is not legal for FB. This is why I would never let a AMA motorcycle engine builder touch an engine for FB. They have no idea what is legal for FB.
I am sure that no one is getting a legal 6-10 HP out of building an engine for FB over stock or wrecked bike stuff. The engine that won the runoffs was a wrecked bike motor and the second place car had a stock motor out of bike that never ran.
Lucian melted down a motor on Friday practice running u4 obviously he ran it to lean. There was an entire valve evaporated and two deformed pistons. After he came and told us he was running the fuel but wasn't told it was illegal however he stated he would not run it again. This motor also had a sizeable amount of material machined from the head surface. Again he stated he was unaware that the motor had been modified in this way by his prep team.
As previously stated lucians motor melted Down on Friday in a practice session. JRO had the motor that appeared to look like there was material removed from the combustion chamber surface. He was advised that they did not beleive his motor was compliant and that they did not want to see that motor in a car the next day. It should also be noted that in race 2 after the engine swap jr was now fighting tooth and nail with the pack to maintain the lead even relinquishing it at one point. In race one he comfortably pulled away from the field. Maybe he wasn't using the fuel ( although the steward told us they smelled it again and asked if we would like to protest again.) or the motor swap had an effect on his performance.
All Nighter
Could it be that he drove a poor race because he was up all night changing a motor and didn't get any rest OR get a chance to make any changes to his set-up for the next day....
I am not defending or afirming anyone's actions, just trying to make sure that everyone takes into account the impact of what an all nighter can do to a driver/race team. Let's not assume that his pace was the direct result of a fuel or motor change.
[quote=Richard Dziak;303606]Perhaps there should be an equalizer, and that being everyone uses the same fuel...86 octane pump gas. I believe that this was a topic of discussion here on the message boards under FB.
I also believe that there was a lot of input about ignition of fuel in the engines and that the lower octane fuels burn better.
This is amatuer racing and I agree with the one poster ....that once the protester knew the competitor was using the U4.4 fuel, it should have been a topic of discussion between the drivers. It is not worth setting trends and causing suspensions over a cheap trophy, the need for a podium finish, and no compensation for a win. It is only a ego thing. We are all out for fun, in a great sport with great racing machines.
Sorry to hear that a good driver who has a good reputation amoung his peers had to be suspended for 3 months. I have never met the suspended driver but know of his reputation and driving skills from his own competitors here on ApexSpeed.
Lets leave this driver be, as I am sure ....he his sufferring enough knowing that he is out of his racing machine for 3 months.
By next racing season, this issue will have passed and will not be a big deal. Time heals all wounds.[Time heals alll wounds and all bleeding stops.quote]
Why exactly
would it take all night to change an engine?
I've seen it done in under two hours, and that's w/ a blow up and all the extra work that entails, as opposed to a straight up swap on a runner.
86 Octane? That swill would hardly run a Toro.
Last edited by glenn cooper; 07.18.11 at 12:26 AM.
Anything is posible but They were parked behind us and their lights were out fairly early
Not surprising. Many (most?) of the higher-performance fuels use oxygenates that lower the stoichiometric point of the fuel. You have to run these a LOT richer, and some closed-loop systems won't go that far without adding fuel pressure, tweaking the MAF or changing the map. There are SCCA-legal fuels that run as low as 13.7; I would imagine that some of the "hot" fuels go far lower.
If you're going to play with fuels, you need to learn how to read a data sheet and what questions to ask about the fuel. A burned-up engine doesn't mean that the fuel can't run in that car - but it may mean you have to do some real work to get it running right.
Marshall Mauney
Milwaukee Region
"Well said"
You guys have to be joking if you think that JR's circumstance is going to keep racers from exploiting the rules for any advantage. Why do you think that a "stock" motor from an engine builder puts out more HP than an eBay motor? All this BS did was to impose an excessive penalty on a competitor for running fuel that does not meet the arbitrary fuel rules of the SCCA. I say arbitrary because the fuel is legal in AMA Pro/Am, CCS, WERA, AFM, NMA, WORCS, SCORE and Best in the Desert. Loss of points for the weekend, penalty points on license and a promise not to run the big bad, kill everyone in the pits fuel again should have been good enough.
Nobody wants any cheating or questionable fuel stuff to continue. And JR has been made the example, which nobody is contesting either. The only gripe I have with it, is the severity of the penalty, the 3 month suspension to be exact. A DQ for the weekend, points on your license and dealing with a probation is a PITA and not at all letting JR off the hook. This would still send a pretty harsh message to all about fuel and the rules in general, but still allows one of our best ad to the big show in Sept.I think it's worse though to let such behavior continue. Like it or not with the fall out of this protest I don't believe anyone will chance risky fuel, motors etc. The bar has been set and JR has been made an example
Last edited by LLoshak; 07.18.11 at 11:32 AM. Reason: had to add some more
Lawrence Loshak
'13 FB & HP National Champion
'10 DSR National Champion
'06 EP National Champion
Lawrence you should run an fb at the runoffs then we will have one more top notch guy for the show
then he has the first motor to "melt" using U4' doubt it though.
Not quite sure what there is to doubt. One valve missing from the head two deformed pistons and good ol George was kind enough to build him another motor (stock this time) just to get him back in the game. This is not hearsay as I saw the melted motor in question with my own eyes. What a sight to see.
Thanks Alex, I hope that wasnt sarcasm!!Love DSR. But if I knew FB was going to take off like this, or even FB at all when I ordered my WF1, I may have become a FB driver. Lets just say I'm keeping an eye on the development of the pro series.
FWIW, the fuel isn't exactly the cause of the melt down. But the owner not knowing that the engine must be remapped, is. Just dumping in this fuel absolutely needs a retune or you will go lean unless your original map was insanely rich to begin with.
Rule of thumb: more power, needs more fuel.
But regardless, we're racing. Engines fail. But if a engine runs so lean, it'll melt a piston or burn up a valve.
Lawrence Loshak
'13 FB & HP National Champion
'10 DSR National Champion
'06 EP National Champion
No sarcasm intended. I beleive it does say dsr national champ on your tag so I figured maybe your a little fast. Plus they seemed to talk about you alot at the runoffs last year. And I understand it wasn't just the fuel it was the fact that it wasn't tuned for the fuel.Thanks Alex, I hope that wasnt sarcasm!!
FWIW, the fuel isn't exactly the cause of the melt down. But the owner not knowing that the engine must be remapped, is. Just dumping in this fuel absolutely needs a retune or you will go lean unless your original map was insanely rich to begin with.
Rule of thumb: more power, needs more fuel.
But regardless, we're racing. Engines fail. But if a engine runs so lean, it'll melt a piston or burn up a valve.
Penalty is a bit harsh for a first offense (if it's his first fuel offense)
Here's the published 'standard' penalites that they have for the SEDIV
http://www.sedivracing.org/2011_Penalty_Guidelines.pdf
After all that has been talked about regarding fuel in the last year anyone should be doing their homework if they aren't going to run track fuel.
I do believe the answer is track fuel.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
Jay -
Track fuel is great when the track has a fuel available that will work for every class - and many tracks do (Road Am, Watkins Glen, Summit Point, etc.). What about tracks like Portland, though, where there are no pumps? What about Grattan and Nelson (not sure about the quality and variety of fuels there)?
Speaking for myself only, I don't want a repeat of this year's Sprints, where we paid $9+/gal for $3.99 street fuel (under mandate as "spec" fuel).
This whole fuel question stinks - there's no easy answer.
Marshall Mauney
Milwaukee Region
Very true Marshall. My main point was that track fuel is always legal. I agree that the price can be steep. If we buy fuel at a street pump (93 octane) we always get it tested as soon as tech is available to hande the test.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote