FE/FM Runoffs

[Matthew Inge]

What is up with combining FE and FM in the race? Two classes inside the Top 10 in participation have to be combined? How does that make sense.. yaddah yaddah blah blah about from past years... THIS IS A REASON WHY!!

The cars are too close in speed and going through lap traffic on both ends could result in an unnecessary issue.

But it makes complete sense to give GTL and T3 (the last and second to last in participation) their own run group. Can someone remind the point of participation?

What a joke. Oh BTW: its Friday and almost that time

[KAMcDonald]

on the bright side, we race monday combined, where we were sunday by ourselves.. and i think is was last session at that.

[SStadel]

Wow, Keith. Monday before any qualy's? How about Friday! Regardless, a split start should keep us apart. Of course a FCY could really screw up the leaders of the second group (probably the Mazda's based on the times from the Sprints). We were the last session, which is now S2000, after the powers that be realized that S2 and SRF really shouldn't be racing together. Ask Dennis Eade how he feels about S2 being the last race on Sunday

[KAMcDonald]

must have been a spell-checker changing what i typed....

[dalz]

Thanks Matthew, I was starting to wonder if someone else even cared.

This seems to be just the latest spitwad lobbed into the face of FM, and unfortunately you FE guys are caught in the middle of it. Remember just a couple years ago when we were almost COMBINED into one class for no apparent reason? I think this was all premeditated--who in their right mind would race S2 with the highly-subscribed SRF?! None of the planning makes sense to begin with.

This is not what I signed up for. This is not why my team is putting forth a Herculean effort for me to succeed. My only way out is to sell my seat to a qualified driver. I haven't ruled it out....

The latest suggestion in FM circles is to run the FM race on Thursday. We'll see if anyone will listen to it. I'll lose it if I'm scolded about ruining the rich Runoffs schedule tradition.

Dale V.

Lake Effect Motorsports FM

[crowe motorsports]

Combined FE/FM for the Runoffs would not be my favored option. A split start will not keep the fields separated as there are always back markers and there could be FCY that could immediately negate the split.

I don't think 4 days of qualifying is really that necessary. You are using up engines, tires etc. I have raced second to last on Sunday at the Runoffs and the benefit is you will probably be racing on Friday next year. So it is what it is. It would be nice if we could qualify Mon/Tues/Wed and start racing Thursday with simgle races thereon through Sunday.

I don't think anyone is really that excited about the combined group option from other posts that I have seen.

Michael Crowe

[Darryl Wills]

This is the eMail I sent to my RE. R David is good people and knows a lot about the inner workings of the SCCA. I will post his reply unless he asks me not too.

Hi David,
Could you please do something about the combining of FM and FEs at the Runoffs. This is so absurd on so many levels it is hard to know where to begin. First, What is so special about spending the vacation time and considerable money to attend the Runoffs if it just another National race that does not showcase our efforts without splitting the attention of fans and sponsors? Second, are they nuts? This is how the SCCA rewards two of the top ten participating classes for all of the self promotion and dedication to attending National events? Yet, classes 26th andf 28th in numbers race by themselves even though they are similar in weight and speed?(GTL and T3)..Thirdly, The original schedule had the FMs running by themselves and then when they discovered that combining S2 and SRF is a bad idea...Whammo! screw the FM and FE guys and make room for the S2s of which has very little participation in most of the country.

Let me know if there is something you can do or somebody that we(the FM and FE community) need to talk to.

Thanks Amigo, See ya at the races,

Darryl Wills

[Matthew Inge]

I like it Daryl. More of the FE/FM guys need to contact their local reps.

Ill be honest, at first I though ehhh someone else will gripe about this and maybe it will get changed. But after thinking about what this all meant, I quickly reconsidered and created this post. My next step is contact my regions rep. Nothing will happen unless more of us reach out. End of story

[dalz]

Thanks for the action Darryl, I'll get to work on the same.

[JRMarchand]

I hope something can be sorted out sorted out for the best. And Daryl, geezuz, if you keep doing 15's and faster you will be passing a few FE backmarkers

I think to make it fair for all, there should not be combined groups for spec classes at the big races (sprints,runoffs). What so spec about slowing down or bowing down to FA's or FC's and now FE's, having to lift for a faster car(s) even in qualifying sucks.

Juan Marchand

[Marshall Mauney]

I hope something can be sorted out sorted out for the best. And Daryl, geezuz, if you keep doing 15's and faster you will be passing a few FE backmarkers

Juan -

In all seriousness, I don't think that we'd ever see each other if we get a good split start. I'm one of those FE backmarkers; I was 5 seconds off the pole at the Sprints, with a 2:18.5 qualifying time. With a 60-second split at the start, I wouldn't expect someone turning 15s to catch me.

That said, a full-course yellow could create a real mess, and would almost certainly cause a problem for someone's race.

I think to make it fair for all, there should not be combined groups for spec classes at the big races (sprints,runoffs). What so spec about slowing down or bowing down to FA's or FC's and now FE's, having to lift for a faster car(s) even in qualifying sucks.

I don't think it has as much to do with "spec" as it does with the fact that our two classes have way too much participation to be combined. Classes in the top ten of the participation standings really ought to get their own race, IMHO.

It looks to me as if they chose to combine one pair from each "category" of race cars - GT, Stock-based, Sports Racers, and Open-Wheel. Which other two open-wheel classes would you combine? FF and F500 might be a decent pairing, but the spread of laptimes in both of those groups is wider than either of ours, so one might expect there to be more interference between them than between us. FA/FB perhaps? At least they are the two open-wheel classes with the lowest participation numbers.....

I do think that there needs to be sound logic behind any request to make a change, and it needs to be clear and communicated without a lot of emotion. A lot of guys appear to be [understandably] upset by this, but if you look at it from the point of view of the CRB, you'll see that ANY combination of classes is going to get them chewed out by the impacted teams.

[KAMcDonald]

slow guy #2 chiming in...

if this was some nationally televised, thousands of spectators (not other racers/crew waiting for their turn) lots of money involved in winning, sponsorship, etc, the whole showcasing of the spec class might make an argument for me. as it is, we are a club, there is only so much time available and lots of classes to be accomodated. speed diferential in specific areas (corners and braking zones), not overall lap times, and weight/visibilty and event participation numbers (more than overall year participation) should come into choosing who has to double up.

a fast driver is going to pass a slower one, no matter what the class. if we have to be in the same run group, all it takes is a little cooperation to safely let a car faster in the corner, but same or slightly slower in the straight by you. the downside is the person in one class in front that has several cars behind from another class that just cannot squeak by without a little bit of help will not get that help if that lead guy knows that 2 or 3 cars behind is a person in his own class. having that buffer of cars between him and a class competitor is always nice to have because it makes it easier to defend his class position.

as a driver and a worker i see it from both sides. original schedule with us as last race on sunday was a bummer, but i would be on the grid fri and sat, so not completely bored. with the revised schedule and race on friday, as much as i like the idea of hanging out other grid folks from around the country, chances are i will pack up friday night, work sat and head home without working sunday. if justin gets his motor fixed and decides to come and play, would be leaving friday.

if the headache is FCY bunching us up with all the FM's, let have the stewards put out two safety cars. one picks up the overall leader and his class, then half lap behind is a second car that picks up the other class leader. cars that are not that safety car's class would be allowed to pass and close up with their own class safety car.

[Speed Sport Engineering]

Every group should have it's own run class at the runoffs. Period. Including qualifying. SCCA really F'ed up this year with the schedule. But I'm sure it's in response to the survey after last years race where everyone wanted "more track time".

How to fix it is a whole 'nother topic which I won't hijack this with.

[Matthew Inge]

Your dang right FA and FB should be combined. THeres always an argument to every side of the story BUT:

- They are the two lowest classes in participation (formula cars). Also, I don't care what anyone says; the different chassis, engine, and aero package options in FA and FB allow passing to be alot easier.

But I will say this, its alot easier to combine Tin tops than it is Formula cars IMHO.

Maybe it has something to do with FE going to a Pro Series??

Humbly,

[JRMarchand]

Marshall, I just wished that a change takes place and we can have our own run groups back, or at least FE can have their own run group, we'll see.

As far as letting other faster guys go by safely, it never helps my lap times, being aware of other faster competitors slows me down, eg " here comes the Fa, let me move over, let me give you a lot of track, ok safe pass" i just sacrificed momentum to a good laptime cause i lifted early into 5 or 1 to let someone by or spent time reacting to faster cars wanting by. Is it by or bye lol.

A few years ago FE and FM ran toe to toe, nowadays I feel that FE's are faster so during qualifying I will have to hold my ground and give an inch, are corner marshals aware of the fact that FE's are faster by a margin and so blue/yellow flag will be in the face of FM drivers during qualifying a lot. I feel bad for the FE competitors because they pay extra to race every time and yet they get thrown under the bus.

[Darryl Wills]

Here is the letter I sent to the CRB....We will see???

I am submitting a request for the CRB. Hopefully, this is the proper group to voice my opposition to the combining of FM and FE cars at the Runoffs. Not allowing two of the top ten participating classes to have the opportunity to race as a stand alone class at the most prestigious amateur event in the world sends a message to me and others that the SCCA does not care how much effort and money these racers have spent on self promoting their respective classes. Also, the SCCA shows no appreciation for the attendance at more National events than over half of the other National classes. We race with combined groups all year and I don't complain about it because I know this is the only practical method to run a National event. But you cannot tell me in good faith that this is absolutely necessary and there are not other viable options....If you must combine classes then the only fair method would be to start at the bottom of the participation chart and find classes that are similar in weight and performance. The GTL and T3 come to mind...Make the change soon because I know of several racers that are considering skipping the Runoffs because of this situation.

Thank you for your time,
Darryl Wills

Tracking Number #5349