Help a New Guy

[BLS]

A short introduction: I am 58, 6ft4 and 225. I raced FV in the "good old days", 1973 - 1979. The last few years were national races mostly with a best national finish of 2nd. Runoffs in 78 finishing 22nd. Old Zink, C4 or Z4 or whatever. Started a new car after '78 and never finished it. IIRC, there were only two of us in the old style Zink in 78 runoffs, so it was dated even then. I built my own engines with help from Rollin Butler.

So, I am looking at starting again. I still have my old Zink and could rebuild for regionals or historic racing. However, I really want to compete at the national level, so a new car is required

At this point, in a desire to reduce weight where I can, I am planning to use round dom tubing with more of the strength coming from the engineering than from heavier tubing. I like the designs with square or rectangular tubing for the chassis base but I'm afraid it will be too heavy. Every 10 pounds equals a 1% accel and decel disadvantage, 50 pounds is 5%, and not likely to be competitive.

Does anyone have accurate weight for the engine, transmission (drum to drum), and front beam (drum to drum)? I have read somewhere an estimate of 200 +- 25 pounds each. That is a swing of 150 pounds possibly. I also read somewhere that a driver of 170 pounds with a 140 pound frame met the 1025 minimum. If so, I will need a considerably lighter frame and a good diet plan. If anyone has better numbers for frame weights of thier cars I would appreciate it as I need a target number to work towards. I do know there are some area's that I can cut weight like a lighter starter. If anyone has other idea's please let me know.

I originally (back in 78) had some good dimensional data. Long gone. I have measured some of my existing components but they are not as accurate as I would like. So, if anyone has accurate data for the following I would appreciate it.

Front beam torsion tube center (or from the back side) to the axle centerline with level trailing arms
Transmission split (engine/tranny flange) to the rear axle centerline
Transmission split to the rear tranny mounting face
Angle of the engine / tranny. I originally planned to have a slight tilt to lower the CG, but do not remember how much was acceptable without oiling problems. Any idea?
Ride height, what are the current cars running front and rear with level front and rear trailing arms?

Obviously, at 6'4 I need to run with the maximum 83.5" wheelbase. I will use the steering setup with the steering gearbox mounted upside down between the steering bulkhead and front beam with the tierods behind my size 13 feet.

Anyone that has suggestons , data, or idea's please leave me a comment.

I plan to run regional in 2012 and national in 2013, the fifty year anniversary. If the economy doesn't completely tank and wipe us all out. I will concentrate on the car design and tuning with a purchased engine. It will be a zero roll, leading arm design as is prevalent now. Maybe I can relearn to drive, it's been a few years.

I'm posting this at the FormulaVee.org website as well.

Thanks for any help,
Barry Shelton

[problemchild]

Hi Barry,

With your size, being competitive will mean having the lightest possible chassis(perhaps 80 lbs) with no real side structure, lightweight body, aluminum floor, etc. Any of the chassis that I built that were under 100 lbs (especially leading arm) just folded up when crashed so I have given up trying. Side protection is a joke in the best FVs.

You can buy great used cars in other classes, for the price of building a new FV, that will be much friendlier for safety and competitiveness.

Since I expect that you are committed to FV, I would shop for a good used FV, (buyers market!) and modify it to your taste and fit. Protoforms, Womers, and Vortechs are considered "big men" cars but each needs to be tested for fit. Vortechs don't fall within my personal level of safety, but are definitely regarded as the best car available (and usually priced accordingly).

Fred Clark is definitely one to talk to in the SE for general FV technical info. You can reach him through the Caracal website.

Cheers!

[BLS]

Thanks Greg. Yes, I'm committed to FV. I've considered purchasing a car, used or new, but I don't think the fit is very good. I was the same size, about 10 pounds lighter, in the old Zink, and managed to get below the minimum weight, having to add about 10-15 pounds ballast. I consider the Zink to be a decently safe design. I destroyed my first one with nothing more than minor injury, mostly due to my hasty exit from the cockpit. The Zink was terribly difficult to get in and out of, with the steering wheel not being removable in those days. It may be foolish to build my own as it requires fixing all the mistakes and getting it all to work, but I believe I can get a better fitting car this way. Maximizing the available space gives me enough room to work with. The disadvantage being that I may not have the most ideal front / rear weight distribution.

You are correct about the side impact protection. It seems to be the most difficult part that I am wrestling with while trying to keep the weight down. I think I'm close but I don't have any real numbers to compare with. I know I can have my own weight down to 215 pretty easily. I believe I can get the chassis weight to about 110 and have a reasonably safe car. Safe and reasonable will vary person to person of course. In the example i gave of the 170 pound driver and 140 pound frame, IF accurate, then I'm pretty close. However, I don't know how accurate this is.

Thanks again,
Barry

[FV07]

Barry,
While I'm sure building your own chassis could be quite fulfilling, buy my Womer thats for sale and would fit you well. Don't ask me how I know, but believe me its one tough and safe frame that Ed builds and it protected my butt without a scratch on my helmet.

You could still go racing THIS season with mine! Likely cost you less money than building your own as well.

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40392

Let me know if your interested.

Jim

410 370 5282

[Bob VanDyke]

For an idea of how much rollover protection is available in a Womer, Jim's car is the second car in the third picture of this ad.

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45834

[FV07]

Thanks Bob. Kinda sad the only way I can figure out how to get a picture of my car on here is for someone else to have a picture on an ad to sell THEIR car.

Jim

[problemchild]

It is better than a picture of the car upside down ...... which was what I was expecting when I saw the link.

[Amon]

BLS,

I owned a 95' Citation which is very similiar to a Speedsport and had no trouble
fitting in it at +6'1" and 205 lbs, and weighed in around 1035 (+10 over min.).
I currently own an early Protoform P-2 (92/05) and it fits better than the Citation,
but weighs in at 1053 lbs. because it's built like a tank with great side intrusion
protection which you pay for with the extra weight. I don't know much about Womers
or Vortech's so I'd go with Greg's recommendation etc..... Good luck and welcome back!

Mark Farnham

[BLS]

Jim, Thanks for the offer. The Womer looks like a nice car. I have collected a lot of photo's from different web locations to check out the current state of FV and went to a race in Atlanta a couple weeks ago to look at cars. I may change my mind and decide to purchase something, but not yet anyway.

Bob, the roll bar in the Womer looks eerily similar to waht I have on paper at this point. Pictures of the car may have influenced me. Having been upside down once might also have had some influence.

Mark, I sat in an early "new model" Zink way back in time and it was still a bit challenging length wise, although my memory is spotty at best. it may simply have been that I thought I could do better. Really, it's my length more than weight that makes for the challenge.

Thanks to everyone for the reply's. If anyone has any data it would be useful.

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

If I were you I would consider building a FST (Formula First). It is basically a modern FV with disc brakes, rack and pinion steering, 1600 engine and most importantly for us big guys, 1125 minimum weight and 85.5" wheel base. I am 6'-1" and weigh 200 lbs and cant get close to minimum weight in my FV, not to mention the height problem. I had to add 30 lbs of weight to my FST to make minimum weight. Weight is everything in a low HP class like FV. You will really struggle to be competitive in FV at the national level based on your size.

[BLS]

Hi Scott,

I have looked at the FST and it looks like a nice class. There is little to dislike, not sure there is anything. I like the larger size, increased weight, cheaper engine, ball joint front, disk brakes, etc. However, here in the SE division there appears to be very little activity. Maybe when there is more competition... (of course, FV is also down on competition)

Regarding weight, I started FV when the minimum was the car only, 850 pounds if my memory is correct. I often watched lesser (IMO) drivers motor away. When the weight rule was changed to car and driver, I got an instant boost, anywhere from 5-8% depending on the driver of the other car. It made all the difference from running just behind the front group to getting in that group. Of course by then my car was not aero enough and I was probably off about 5% in power, so it was still a struggle and there were always a couple cars that seemed to define the front group.

I do not want to race the car unless I can get the weight near minimum, low aero, and HP. I'll leave the HP to the pro's this time around.