Data Acquisition Systems

[Keith]

Alright, here we go again. According the the poll, more than HALF use or are going to use a data system this year. What system is everyone using? Does a STACK dominate the market over a Pi? Are there any preferences out there? What are the pros\cons of each and which options are the most common (or most oftenly used) in a system? Is it worth getting a high end system or will the low end data system work well enough for club racing? Thanks guys!

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Keith Carter #28
94\95 VanDiemen
keith@formulacontinental.com

[Dan Kennison]

I think it is difficult, in that you need to know how far your going with it before you buy. I have had four systems. First - none. I had guages that were fine but I didn't get lap times. Next I got a stack system when I bought a Van Dieman. It was real nice for everything. I never got a beacon but there was usually one at the track and it worked. The peak values were good information and the alarms were very good at saving engines. I got the big idea to use the logging side of the system, bought a laptop ($3,500) and the software ($1,500) and never used it. It was a pain and told me nothing.

When I got a new car it came with the Pi C-Dash, in my opinion a crap system for what we do. The good points were that you did get the peak values and alarms. ( I like to see a tack the shift lights don't do it for me)

I just bought a Pi 2+, it is a good system, but is expensive. It has all the stuff you really need ( a real tack to look at, oil temp and presure, water temp, etc..) and all the peak values and alarms. I bought the software and will soon know if that is a waist of time. I hope this helps.

[El Guapo]

Both of the cars I had this year ('98 and '96 Van Diemans) had Pi 2 systems. These systems are expensive. Whether or not the expense is worth it depends on what you want out of the system. To get your money's worth out of a Pi 2 you should buy the soft ware and a laptop. Also you need to get some education on how to analyze the data. Without doing these things all you have is avry expensive dash & timing system. For us, the expense has been worthwhile, but we had access to a second set of data from another driver, so we could make comparisons. I will mention that twice this year, the whole system went down on us, leaving me with no dash, no alarms, nothing but a seperate set of shift lights during races. If you are considering getting data acqusition, my best advice would be to get some education on the different systems before investing any money. Also, be clear in your mind what you want out of the system.

[Mike Andersen]

I've been using the Pi System 2 for the last few years, and I'm very happy with it. Years ago we had a Stack system which I wasn't very impressed with, but I'm not familiar with their current products.

The most important thing to me in a data system is the dash. A good electronic dash can give you all sorts of useful information. Alarm & shift lights allow you to concentrate more on your driving without having to worry about checking the guages. Having your lap times show up on the dash as you cross start/finish is also a great help. The best thing about my Pi dash, though, is that it displays the minimum speed through the last corner. This is invaluable info, because it allows you to see instantly when you've made improvements. You can make changes to the car and experiment with different lines, and you'll get instant feedback about which is fastest.

The other thing to look for in a data system is good software. Make sure the software is easy to use, otherwise you won't use it at all. I think for club racing, features are less important than ease of use. We don't usually have a whole lot of time to sit around and analyze data, so the simpler the better. Some of the software out there is not very user-friendly, so make sure you try out a system before you buy it.

Mike Andersen

[Tom Johnson]

I hope I don't get toasted for this view, but...

I think for most weekend racers data acquisition is an unneccesary and expensive piece of equipment.

Granted, the pro guys and the top national teams need this valuable tool to pursue their craft at the highest level. However, without the correct support equipment to complement the system (read "engineer"), it is merely an expensive tach and laptimer.

For the one-man shows out there (and there are a lot more of them than big teams) there just isn't time to drive the car, download and analyze the data, and make the appropriate changes. And that assumes the racer actually knows how to turn the data into speed.

I tend to think the best data acquisition system for Joe Racer is a $50 stopwatch in the hands of a competent crewmember.

[f2000]

Tom, I have a tendency to agree with you. I don't think it is an unpopular opinion, either. At the current point of our racing experience, it is more of a "cool toy" to give us more information than we really are capable of understanding. We aren't close enough tot he front-runners to make that added information translate into faster lap times.

I do believe that the shift lights will help us concentrate more on driving, and the lap timer is a definite benefit. We used a HotLap system in our first year, and I must say that it is a HUGE benefit to be able to see your time as you complete a lap to instantly know if what you did on that lap made any difference or not. Maybe it isn't as specific as telling you your speed in an individual corner, but there are a lot of us who are still working on putting the car in the correct place on the track, and added distractions could be more of a detriment than a benefit.

Maybe to pull that last 2% out of your abilities or your car, the computer data acquisition system can be a tremendous advantage. I think for most of us, a few good crewman can help us more than an expensive data system.

[Dan Kennison]

I have found that the more I get involved with this sport; the more I read, study and try and understand all the aspects of our cars. I think that data systems are a part of that interest in the overall understanding and enjoyment in the sport. I find myself not just looking at pictures of F1, Cart, IRL etc... cars, but studying them to see what may make our cars better and faster. Looking at data about how you drive, when you lift, when you turn in etc... is just a continuation of the sickness... I'm a one man team (with alot of support from my fellow drivers) and I study everthing I can get my hands on. Any of you new guys be careful because all this this stuff is very addicting.

[Rex Gunning]

I think there are a couple of reasons why there is about a 50/50 split on the data aquisition. I tend to agree with Tom in that the knowledge to really extract useful information from the data would require a full time team member, who really knows what he's doing, and who's job it would be to do nothing but go over downloaded information. Then it would have to be applied to the car. I haven't seen to many of these types at regional or national races. In my case, the budget is better spend on a new set of tires or some other piece that I'm sure will make an improvement to the handleing of the car. Shift lights are nice and can be installed for next to nothing from the cheapest of todays tachs. As for lap times, we simply use the method that if the crew hasn't hung out a faster time on the board, I didn't go any faster on that lap......Rex

[ChuckU2]

While I agree with both sides of this subject, I tend to favor Dan's opinion.

Data loggers, etc. are expensive and for your average club racer, I don't think that they are a nessessary expenditure. However if you can find a car that has a system already installed, and you can pick it up INCLUDED with the price of the car, you are ahead of the game.

While it is cold and snowy outside, I can sit here on my PC in December and evaluate why I am much slower in turn seven than I am in turn one, although they are both of similar radius. Then, by the time next season rolls around, I'll already have driven that corner hundreds of times in my mind, focusing on the details that may make me faster there. Then I'll have the data to see if I am improving or not. It all goes along with reading/studying as much as you can about what makes these marvelous machines we drive behave the way that they do, preparing for what you will make happen before you even get into the driver's seat.

Basically, it really helps you be your own driving coach - using it as a between weekends tool, rather than an at the track type thing.

You don't need to get a full blown system to get a fair amount of information from a system. There are system out there for less than $1000.00 that will give you several of the major channels, which may be of value to the "average" club racer.


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Chuck Lessick
1996 VanDiemen FC#59

[D. Ferguson]

I've used and installed several data acquisition systems over the years, starting with a G*Analyst and a video camera, and eventually ending up with a Pi System 2 in my Sports 2000. For me, the systems are used more for driver coaching than pure engineering.

Armed with the data, I've discovered that turns taken at the traction limit just below the speed where downforce is effective (say 75-85) mph are candidates for knocking a lot of lap time off if you can get the car into the aerodynamic range (90 mph+). Without exact data as to how close you were (or experience from someone who "knows" that a particular turn is flat out at the top of 3rd), it's mighty tough discover this stuff.

Of course, I've been able to quickly sort out gearing choices, and using EGT can get the jetting just right, and shows how an intake scoop is affecting the mixture at speed.

[warning commercial content ahead!]

I am in the process of starting a business (Veracity Racing Data) to sell data acquisition systems from several different vendors. We will be carrying systems from Stack, ProData, SPA, Pi Research, Motec (more brands are in the works). Basically a one-stop shop to help you choose a system that fits your needs. We expect to deal in used systems for even more options. We're a few weeks away from our website/advertising, but feel free to contact me with any questions.

David Ferguson
ferg@veracitydata.com




[This message has been edited by David Ferguson (edited December 27, 2000).]

[Tom Johnson]

Something that might make D/A more attractive to the general racing populace is a class in how to turn the data into actual lower lap times. Does such a thing exist? I seem to remember that Pi supported something like this, but you had to have their system and it was outrageously expensive.

[f2000]

Actually, that does sound like a reasonable request. All that data and information is great, but what good is it if you don't know how to make you faster?

David, that is something your startup company should look into or consider as a benefit of purchasing a system through you. Actually, it is something that we here should look into as a potential feature on the website.

-doug

[This message has been edited by f2000 (edited December 27, 2000).]

[Jim Belay]

I have used Data Acquistion for over ten years both in my car and with several people that I have coached. I agree that an individual running a car alone does not have the time to interpret and use all of the information that can be collected by even the simplest system. I have one crew member and myself. I run the d/a when I drive. I found that concentrating on simple information worked well when the system was new. Top speed and cornering speed (when adjusting areo) was extremely useful.
From a coaching perspective,the biggest asset to d/a is checking egos. Data doesn't lie about where you are flat and where you lift.
As to sources of information for interpretation of data, I still re-read Buddy Fey's book Data Power as I use more of the information I collect. It has proven useful in communicating exactly what the car is doing.
Jim Belay

[ChuckU2]

Speaking of Data Power by Buddy Fey. Does anyone know where I can get my hands on a copy of this book? Everywhere I have checked lists it as out of print.

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Chuck Lessick
1996 VanDiemen FC#59

[El Guapo]

Tom, I agree that classes in how to implement changes (both engineering and driving) based on D/A would be very helpful. Pi research has seminars that they charge about $750 for. This is tough for me to justify. My data analysis is done by the prep shop owner who runs me. Learning how to do this came from advice from others with more experience, as well as some calls to Pi. Maybe Dave will offer some classes for those of us who aren't willing to pony up the price of a set of tires for a tutorial! What about it, Dave?

[f2000]

Data Power: Using Racecar Data Acquisition, by Buddy Fey


Amazon.com Currently on back order, but will ship 3-5 weeks

Borders Books Currently out of stock, but will order and ship in 1-6 weeks

AlphaCraze.com (Yahoo) $22.76, and it seems to be available in hardcover

Motorbooks.com Out of stock currently, but a cool website for motorsports pubs

Corsa Data Accessories Sure they have all of the other stuff, but they carry the book to explain their data acquisition systems, too. $30, but it appears they have it in stock

DRE/WREP; looks like our local FV guys carry this book as well


It looks like most internet online motorsports book sales are throwing their links back to Amazon.com. I'm guessing that if anyone can still get it, regardless of their current stock, I'd try them first.


Or you could just drop Buddy a note and find out who still currently carries it; buddyfey@compuserve.com

[This message has been edited by f2000 (edited December 27, 2000).]

[D. Ferguson]

The Buddy Fey book is great for teaching you all of the things you can learn by REALLY studying the data, but this level of analysis is too in-depth for a team without a dedicated DAG (data acquisition guy). As Jim mentioned, most benefit can be derived by looking at the speed trace, lateral G's and throttle position. Since it's pretty easy for a data acquisition system to break the track into segments, and time each segment for every lap, I use these tables to identifies areas where I can learn "what" made me faster -- usually it's throttle application, speed and cornering G's.

Another book that I have found helpful is "Going Faster" by Carl Lopez . A portion of the book concentrates on using data acquisition to discover the differences between two drivers. They examine braking points, brake modulation (using pressure sensors in the brake line), and throttle application. They use a system developed for the Skip Barber school, but it shows you what you should be looking for when you overlay two traces and are trying to see why one is faster.

Once you understand what it is you want to do, I have found the techniques in Ronn Langford & Ross Bentley's new book "Inner Speed Secrets" to be helpful at programing the mind/body to execute.

Both of these books can be ordered at Amazon.com.

As a little market research, would folks pay $350 for a one-day seminar on "turning traces into time". How about $99 for a 2 hour video?

[This message has been edited by David Ferguson (edited December 27, 2000).]

[ChuckU2]

Doug - The "Out of Stock will ship in..." means, they can't get it. Placed orders with several on-line sources, only to be e-mailed several days later with a "We are sorry, but..." letter. Even the one place you had that said they had it in stock, when I placed the order, I got an "Unavailable to ship" message. THANKS for you help on the other leads, I'll check into them (CORSA & DRE) and if necessary, I will e-mail Buddy.




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Chuck Lessick
1996 VanDiemen FC#59

[Tom Johnson]

David:

Here's a definite "yes" vote for the video and a "probable" for the seminar. These two, perhaps coupled with a forum/Q&A area on a website would be a great help to we little guys who can't afford a prep shop.

[El Guapo]

I would buy the video. I would consider the seminar, but geography would be a factor.

[DaleC]

Two thumbs up on the video. I would buy one too.

[Dan Kennison]

I think it would be nice if someone who has the ability to teach others would decide how much they need, to talk for a day, then divide that amount by the number of people that are interested. It would probably be alot less than $350.00 I would donate the location for the seminar if that would help in the cost reduction.

[Kristopher Pendrak]

I'd buy the video too, and the seminar would be a definite possibility. I know both would help me!

[Ray Grienke]

Has anyone tried Pegasus for the Fey book? Think I got my copy there. Ray