oil?

[fv58]

hello,i was wondering if anybody has used valvoline race only engine oil seems to be comparable to others but have no info on use in vees.What oil brands are used mostly thanks in advance dave jr

[kea]

I've been selling RedLine synthetic to Vee racers for years.

[Becker Motorsports]

When we ran FV's, our engine builder,V-Teck in So. Mill., recomended Mobil-1 20-40. Never had a engine failure, several others were also using Mobil-1. I am sure any of the premium oils can do the job.
As Keith recomends, Red Line is also used by a lot of the racers, We use their product,s in our FC

[fv58]

I know that alot of people were using mobil1,but they don't have a grade of oil that has higher zinc levels than conventional oils,redline products are good just was wondering on other brands as every bit of money counts some are cheaper in price but in quality i do not know?

[kea]

Keep in mind your decision for type/brand of lubricant to use in your air (oil) cooled motor, is more critical than that of a water (and oil) cooled variant.
How much money would you really spend over the course of a season, on a lubricant anyway?

[problemchild]

The Valvoline Racing 5W30 is a perfect choice for a FV. I know my local NAPA store has it in their local warehouse, if not on the shelf.

I have been using cheap Mobil One 5W20 from Walmart in my FST and FVs for 5 years or so with no issues. If my builders are not worried about zinc, I won't. When my customers can afford it, I'll use Redline or Joe Gibbs, but the Valvoline is accessable, affordable, and has the zinc for those that worry about having zinc.

The main thing is to have the engine put together well and then keep enough oil in it!

[flat tappet]

I know that alot of people were using mobil1,but they don't have a grade of oil that has higher zinc levels than conventional oils,redline products are good just was wondering on other brands as every bit of money counts some are cheaper in price but in quality i do not know?

Brad Penn, the last of Pennsylvania crudes and used to be the old Kendell GT(it's green in color). It's loaded with ZDDP and ZINC...great for flat tappet engines!!

[sracing]

Use any brand name synthetic that is labeled "For Racing Use", "Off Road Use only" etc. A 10W-30 is fine. Some race oils are listed as 30W only, for example but they still contain viscosity indexers, so are really eg. 10W-30.

You have a flat tappet cam and high contact adjusters on your rocker arms. You WANT the higher zinc levels that these oils provide. Especially in the early life of the cam and lifters. A high zinc oil can also provide a bit of protection in those cases where you lose oil pressure. (not for long though ).

A synthetic provides a bit more HP up to about 140F degrees or so and then they are equal. However in a A/C engine you may see oil temps on extreme days and conditions that exceed the limits of a dinosaur based oil. (280 or so). Synthetics can still do the job beyond that point.

Redline, Joe Gibbs and many other "racing oils" will work fine. (We always break our engines in on the dyno with Gibbs 40W BR-1 (non-synthetic). We then use RedLine 30W Race Oil. ) We do this on the Vees, FST's, and V8's.

The advantages of a high zinc oil is clear. The manufactures would love to be using it. However, the zinc destroys 02 sensors and Cats, so government regs stopped it. So that is why it is no longer in street oils. Newer production engines are roller cams and/or with much wider (less lbs psi) contact points. (and to some degree better quality metals for the application.

[Matt King]

I know that alot of people were using mobil1,but they don't have a grade of oil that has higher zinc levels than conventional oils

Not true. M1 15W50 has over 1200ppm ZDDP (see data sheet link below for comparisons). This is one of the oils that Jim at Veetech recommends. I haven't bought any since last year, but I was getting it at Walmart for under $25 for a 5-qt jug. M1 also offers several grades of racing oil with even higher ZDDP levels if you feel it's necessary, or you can add some engine oil supplement.

http://www.mobil.com/usa-english/mot...duct_guide.pdf

[Tiago Santos]

Mobil1 15W50 is 45-50 bucks per 5qt jug up here.. Argh. Still cheaper than redline, but not by much.

[Hardingfv32]

I do not believe Mobil 1 15W50 (gold top?) is made any more per the Mobil web site.

Brian

[Tiago Santos]

Not the gold top, but the normal stuff is still available up here, at least. Still seems to have 1200ppm of Zinc too, at least a couple months ago when I last checked. I'm switching to red line anyway cause it really isn't that much more money and I can run a different weight, don't think the temperatures here justify running 50wt oil..

[Hardingfv32]

Only the one "street" Mobil 1, ??W50, had the high zinc. Why would they continue to make it if it is bad for the smog systems?

Oil pressure is the thing to watch when judging what viscosity to use. The average engine is fine with 30w. 20w can be used if you keep all your ducks in order.

Brian

[Tiago Santos]

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/..._1_15W-50.aspx

This is the one I've been using and that, as far as I can tell, has the 1200ppm of Zinc. I remember reading about the gold top one and never found it up here in Canada, but I always thought it was a labeling/marketing thing.

What sort of oil pressure ranges do you aim for? And I guess oil pressure would be the goal, but higher temps would require a higher viscosity to maintain the same oil pressure, right?

[Rick Kirchner]

in my air-cooled super vee I used dino oil and it was BLACK after one weekend - a good indication of very high oil temps somewhere in the system and the oil not being able to handle it.

In my FC I've used Mobil 1, 15W50 red (when we used to be able to get it), 5W30, and Valvoline NSL 5W30 and 20W50. The mobil-1 products were cleaner all around than the Valvoline products in terms of how the engine components looked on tear-down.

An easily available oil with high ZDDP is the Mobil-1 4T 10W-40 for sport bikes. ZDDP levels like the old 15W-50 and a lower vis to boot. They make a similar product with higher viscosity for harleys.

I've also used the street mobil-1 products with STP, but it's a crap shoot because STP won't publish their zinc and phosphorus levels. But you can do that in a pinch if the good stuff is not available.

Mobil-1 does make an extremely expensive race-only oil to replace the 15W-50 product.

Never had the opportunity to use anything else, as it's hard to get the exotic stuff out here in BF nowhere.

[sracing]

in my air-cooled super vee I used dino oil and it was BLACK after one weekend - a good indication of very high oil temps somewhere in the system and the oil not being able to handle it.

Yes that can be an indicator. But the best thing to do is have your oil analyzed if in doubt. The amount of detergents, and dyes, sequestoring agents , etc. will all effect the color of your oil. Also the manufactures have tried many dyes over the years for marketing purposes.

1. Oils that change color faster so that the consumer will think they need changing more often.
2. Oils that tend to NOT change color so that the consumer thinks it's great oil.
etc.
3. Then of course you have all seen the different shades of green, purple, red, and gold. That is marketing ONLY.

Years ago a manufacturer marketed a CLEAR oil, when the consumer hot button was "Pure" and "Natural" by simply beaching the colors out. It didn't go over so well since the stuff turned colors instantly.

Oil analysis is cheap and very interesting. With the component break down they also provide some reasons on why some components may be there or not.

[budawe]

I've always relied on the smell, when it smells like my shoes, I change it.

[Tiago Santos]

Brian - how much for a pair of your shoes? Cause judging by my own smelly shoes, I'd only change the oil once a year!

[Albatross]

Years ago when Brian braved the wilds of the Northwest, we could always tell when Brian drove through the gate at Seattle Int'l Raceway, now called Pacific Raceway.

[Hardingfv32]

A properly setup engine does not require oil changes. It should burn at least a 1/2 qt per weekend. Say about 200 miles of racing, that meanings the oil is changed out every 1600-2000 miles. Would that not be satisfactory for a properly cooled engine?

Brian

[smsazzy]

I change my oil every other weekend. I have also sent it to Blackstone labs several times for analysis. Have never found anything out of the ordinary in analysis. I even sent them some oil that was in a stored D13 for 20 years for anaysis. It was basically good as new except for an abnormal amount of moisture, which you would expect.

I would recommend everyone running against me to run 80WT oil. :-)

[sracing]

A properly setup engine does not require oil changes. It should burn at least a 1/2 qt per weekend. Say about 200 miles of racing, that meanings the oil is changed out every 1600-2000 miles. Would that not be satisfactory for a properly cooled engine?

Logic is sound, but... A Vee is a nasty burning engine. Due to the race prepped carbs they do not meter fuel well at idle. Probably 10% of it is simply wet (non emulsified) fuel dropping down the manifold. The carb float doesn't handle G-forces well, in every corner you dump more wet fuel down the manifold. Plus, being a road race engine, we are on and off the throttle every corner. After a race or two, a lot of the oil is actually gasoline. Of course the gas does go into solution with the oil, but now instead of 30 weight you have 20 wt. We really have no idea of how much oil we are using in a race. We might be 1/2 quart down of oil after a race, but we may have added a pint of gasoline. On a fuel injected engine, your logic applies well.

I agree with Stephen that every other weekend is a decent rule of thumb.

[Hardingfv32]

Wouldn't the gasoline evaporate in the hot crankcase? I can appreciate some dilution of cylinder wall oil quality because of the points you make.

Brian

[smsazzy]

Depends if it is in solution or suspension. We need a chemist to give us that definition.

Anyone?

[sracing]

Since they are both petroleum (roughly) based, I suspect it will go into solution. For fun I just tried putting a couple spoonfulls of fuel into a cup of Mobile 1 Synthetic. After sitting for a half hour the fuel did not come out of solution. Since the SG is different I would have expected it to separate if it did not go into solution. Not real scientific but the best I can do here. . I am sure some distilling takes place in the engine of many impurities, but I don't think the gasoline leaves politely. While the refineries crack this way it's a bit different process.

I tried the same thing with Mobile One and water and they clearly did not go into solutiion as expected. Even after shaking, in a few minutes it was a layer of oil and a layer of water. No problem distilling.

[sracing]

I would recommend everyone running against me to run 80WT oil. :-)

Is that to level the playing field ?

[smsazzy]

Any advantage I can find!

[Tiago Santos]

Damn Jim, you just went through about CAD$10 of Mobil 1

[sracing]

Damn Jim, you just went through about CAD$10 of Mobil 1

I will just put it in one of our cars so as not to waste it.

[Matt King]

Depends if it is in solution or suspension. We need a chemist to give us that definition.

Anyone?

Wouldn't the oil analysis reveal the effect of gas in the oil, either through chemical composition or loss of viscosity or both?

[sracing]

Yep. They do a sprectrum analysis and can give you a breakdown of all materials in the oil. (Z, FE, AL, etc.) They typically include an estimated number for fuel dillution.

[Becker Motorsports]

Somewhat off topic, but back in the late 50's/early 60's I ran CAstor Oil in My AJS & Triump race bikes. Don't know if made any difference , but boy they sure smelled good

[budawe]

Boy does that Castrol R smell remind me of the old days. Most of those old machines passed as much oil as fuel. But it sure smelled better than my shoes.

Seriously, if you're spending thousands for a motor, why worry about a few bucks. I agree with Jim about the fuel contamination and blowby. Even the best motors contaminate oil over time. It's like helmets, the price difference only counts when you need it. High temps, short starvations and other unplanned events, will test even the best oils out there.

[Jean-Sebastien Stoezel]

Hi:

When do you need to use breakin oil (like Joe Gibbs BR)? Is it to be used when your engine is brand new (cylinders, pistons etc), or/and after a rebuild?

I just got my engine rebuilt, and my engine builder never said to use breakin oil (just high Z/Ph racing oils). I was planning to use Joe Gibbs XP3 right away, which is not a breakin oil...

Should I be using a breakin oil for the first race week-end? What is specific to a breakin oil?

Jean

[Doug FST 5]

Our engine builder uses a good mineral oil on the dyno. Our practice is to run mineral in the first couple sessions to insure a good ring seal. We switch to synthetic racing oil from then to the next rebuild.

Doug FST 5

[sracing]

Your builder should have done all the break-in you need on the dyno. Gibbs BR is a good choice. That is what we use. If he did break it in, you don't have to use anything other than a good synthetic (with zinc) now. Gibbs Synthetic is also a very good choice, but a bit pricey.

[Jean-Sebastien Stoezel]

Hi:

Thanks for the reply.

I'll have to check with my engine builder when he is available, but I'm think he did breakin the engine on the dyno. Otherwise I'm sure he would have told to use a breakin oil.

Oil-wise I don't have much choice available here when it comes to racing oils. Nobody carries Valvoline or Red Line, the drag shops (which is the dominant form of racing here) only seem to be selling Joe Gibbs. I think it's $11.95 for a quart.

Other question while I'm here. At one of the drag shops I was chatting with the owner about racing fuels. I was telling him that I'm looking for AvGas because I need to run leaded gas. He said that he would not rely so much on AvGas to contain enough lead. Instead I should be getting proper racing gas, at least this is what he does.
At his shop he stocks up on VP C-15 gas (imported from the US) and said he would sell me some at cost if this is appropriate for my engine. He asked about the compression ratio I'm using and I wasn't sure what it is. He mentioned I should probably dilute it with regular gas, as the C-15 is quite concentrated...

What do you think? We don't have a pump with racing gas at the track, so we rely on racing gas imported from you guys and potentially from AvGas if we can get it at the airport.

Here's a link to the VP fuel table:

http://www.vpracingfuels.com/vp-raci...ter-fuel-table

The parameters are still a bit cryptic to me:

Fuel Name: C15
Color: Green
MON: 115
RON:
R+M/2:
Specific Gravity @ 60°F: 0.713
Type: Leaded
RVP: 3.5
O2: No


Jean

Your builder should have done all the break-in you need on the dyno. Gibbs BR is a good choice. That is what we use. If he did break it in, you don't have to use anything other than a good synthetic (with zinc) now. Gibbs Synthetic is also a very good choice, but a bit pricey.

[Matt King]

I would use 100LL AVGas if you can get it up there.

[Tiago Santos]

Jean - most of us in BC run 94 octane chevron.. It seems to work fine for most people. Some engine builders aren't fans of this - it can cause dieseling (setting your idle as low as it'll go can help, as can stalling the car in 4th gear instead of just switching it off).

Others say you need the lead to lubricate the valve seats and guides. The compression is low enough that we really don't need 115 octane gas, Avgas should be good enough. I've also been told to use a 5:1 ratio of pump to race gas - which again makes me think that Avgas would have enough lead to do what we need it to do.

I'll let the experts answer the question in more detail, but yeah, just wanted to let you know that a lot of people happily run good ol' pump gas with no apparent trouble.. knock on wood.

[sracing]

Av Gas is ok. It has plenty of lead, (double what the low lead street fuels used to have) but you don't need it. The VW's heads have had the hard seats for years and VW said no lead was fine. As far as octane/race fuel. You have a compression ratio of under 8:1, so a 91 octane or above is fine. Some race fuels MAY help a bit HP wise due to flame front enhancers, etc, but you will do fine with AvGas or even better premium pump fuel if you are allowed to use it. Ask your builder what SG (specific gravity) he used when he dyno tuned it. If you have E10 up there in the street pumps AND he dynoed to that SG, you won't be able to do any better with a "Race" gas and you will save lots of money. (If you have the choice to use street premium, use it instead of AvGas. AvGas is ok, but it is not really formulated for the close to sea level racing and our application.)

BTW, using the fuel that your builder dynoed and tuned it with is far more important than what fuel you end up with.

(Before anyone jumps in about fuel cells and E10; ATL and Fuel Safe have both said E10 is ok. Just follow proper suggestions on keeping the cell topped off between weekends, or totally empty. One or the other.