Gloria formula car info

[Herman Pahls]

Is anyone aware if Gloria Formula cars (F-1000) out of Italy are being raced in the US?
My reason for asking is that the Gloria catalogo, gloriacars.com , at the bottom of page 13 (external pins) shows an interesting adapter nut-bolt to a conventional stub axle that Gloria uses to hold on their center lock wheels.
I realize that Fast Forward and Edge make one piece center lock stub axles but my inquiring mind needs to know if the Gloria method is sound and safe race car engineering to hold wheels on.
Thanks Herman

[Jnovak]

Herman, it appears to me that the big downside to this attachment of the wheel is that the wheel nut also is the attachment & preload system for the hub to the bearing assembly.

The downside of this is that the bearing nut torque is ALWAYS much higher than the torque to attach the wheel. I suspect that the wheel torque value for the nut is much under the required torque for the production bearing nut.

It probably works but I would not do it that way.

Thanks ... Jay Novak

[Herman Pahls]

Jay
Thanks for your consideration.
It appears that the Gloria system will allow the bearing to be torqued as needed with the female threads of the adapter and then torque the center lock wheel at a lesser torque with the male threads of the adapter.
Herman

[brownslane]

hmmmpgh...sorry, that old song was drifitng through my vacant mind....

The bolt-on adapter will work, but it has less strength, more complexity, changes the wheel mounting further outboard of the bearing (heavier bearing loading) and weighs a crapload more.

So, if you don't mine wearing out wheel bearings sooner, putting additional loads through the wheel mount flange, and adding unsprung weight, the Gloria way would be glorious!

I agree that maybe I might use in on a street car (never have) but I would not use it on a race car.

Best, Tom

[Mike B]

Phil Creighton had two of the F1000 Glorias in his shop a few years ago but I'm pretty sure they went back to Italy. He would be a good start to find info on parts.

[VehDyn]

Phil also worked with the DSR Gloria that came over and ran with Davide Rigon at the helm. As a coincidence, Davide tested a Ferrary F1 car this past weekend.

DSR, where future F1 stars are found....

[Herman Pahls]

Tom
Thanks for the humor.
The Gloria system does not appear to move the wheel further outboard like the centerlock conversions I have seen online for Porche's.
If you go to gloriacars.com the 8th item down on the left is the catalogo.
Go to the bottom of the 13th page.
You will see the hub with drive pins, front stub axle and the adapter nut-bolt that holds the bearing and hub together and then allows the centerlock wheel to be attached separately with a conventional nut-waher.
This appears to be a simple center lock conversion system.
Is it a proven and safe system???
Herman

[Wren]

I agree that it doesn't look like it would move anything outboard, it just looks unneccesarily complicated.

There's no reason to import custom made parts from Italy when you can get all-thread and good fasteners at the local bolt store. I also trust mass produced fasteners much more than custom pieces.

[Herman Pahls]

Wren
Would you explain the details of how all thread would be used.
I assume there would need to be a bushing to center the all thread in the hub and then a nut to torque the hub to the bearing and then a separate nut-washer to hold the center lock wheel on.
All thread would only work on the front and not the rear??
Thanks Herman

[john f]

Herman:

It looks like to me that the only difference is the center bolt is two pcs instead of one. The pre-load for the wheel bearing is applied by the female half of the "external pin" to the "internal pin". The pre-load for wheel clamping is applied with the male portion of the "external pin" and "wheel bolt assy". As with any center clamp wheel mount, the amount of clamping load applied to the wheel it self removes that same amount of pre-load on the wheel bearing assembly. I know that there will be people that say I am wrong, but do a "summation of forces" on the bearing, stud, and wheel. The separate "external pin" and "internal pin" may weigh slightly more than a one pc center bolt, but I doubt very much, and in my opinion, just as strong. Just my $0.02.

john f

[Herman Pahls]

John f
Thanks for taking your time to look at the Gloria parts.
Possibly the reason they do the 2 piece method is that they can utilize existing stub axles and reduce costs.
I am all about reducing costs if safety is not compromised.

I assume the concept of summation of forces would apply to both 1 and 2 piece stub axles?
Does this concept have to do with the stub axle stretching when torqueing the center lock wheel nut and therefore reducing the torque on the nut holding the bearings to the hub?
Or does stub axle stretch have anything to do with summation of forces?
What torque front and rear is used on the inner stub axle nut?
What is the torque used on 3/4 by 16 center lock nut-washers?
Herman

[Wren]

Wren
Would you explain the details of how all thread would be used.
I assume there would need to be a bushing to center the all thread in the hub and then a nut to torque the hub to the bearing and then a separate nut-washer to hold the center lock wheel on.
All thread would only work on the front and not the rear??
Thanks Herman

Pretty much, and it works fine on the rear too.

[john f]

I assume the concept of summation of forces would apply to both 1 and 2 piece stub axles?
Does this concept have to do with the stub axle stretching when torqueing the center lock wheel nut and therefore reducing the torque on the nut holding the bearings to the hub?
Or does stub axle stretch have anything to do with summation of forces?
What torque front and rear is used on the inner stub axle nut?
What is the torque used on 3/4 by 16 center lock nut-washers?
Herman[/quote]


Herman:
The sum of forces applies the same to both one and two pc stubs. Yes, the center stub stretches when the wheel is tightened, reducing the pre-load on the bearing. I run a S2000 with 3/4-16 center studs. The wheels are torqued to 100 lb-ft and the bearings are torqued to around 200 lb-ft. So far, nothing has come apart Just my $0.02.

john f

[R. Pare]

Preload across the bearing does not change as the wheel is torqued to any meaningful degree. The preload is controlled by the fit of the 2 inner races against each other, and can only be changed by grinding the inner face of one (or both) of the two halves where they butt up against each other (more preload), or thru bearing wear (loss of preload).

What does change (increase) with torquing the wheel nut is the load from the hub to the bearing inner race outer face, the crush load across the 2 inner races, the stress imposed on the portion of the stud where it crosses through the bearing, and whatever the mechanism is that "anchors" the stud to the bearing inboard inner race (a flange or a CV joint).

This style of anchoring has been in use in many classes of cars since sometime before the DB1 and is still very common.

[john f]

I stand corrected.

john f

[R. Pare]

Citation has for 25+ years used B7 grade threaded rod for the stud used in the front, and now most recently (since the switch away from the dasher outer CV joint) the same rod in the rear. Available from McMaster-Carr, and quite inexpensive compared to making a special rod, heat treating it, etc.