Fastrack March 2011 Shifter Rule

[DonArm]

Ok, so reflexes, steering, situational awareness, braking at just the right time and flicking that little paddle at the right time all combined doesn't make a good racer that exhibits good race craft as you put it?
So, what your saying is that using a "computer" which the Geartonics system in it's entirety is not, makes you less of a driver? I think maybe a couple of the GP3, GP2 and F1 drivers would more than likely disagree with you.

[John Mosteller]

How many engines has Niki blown up running at the front?

[starkejt]

On the other side there are those of us that think the CRB is right and is trying to uphold the rule as written and as intended.That don't think we need to have a computer shifting for us.That believe shifting should be a part of ones racecraft, that is an advantage to one that is better than his competitor and is not afraid match his skills for better or worse against his competitors.

As stated in my previouse post. I believe the geartronics system needs to be protested and ran through the system to see exactly what the current rule is.

At that point those that end up on the loosing side can go through the system with a rule change proposal for 2012.

No amount of bickering here is going to settle things one way or the other.We each have differing opinions and at the end of the road on this issue one side or the other is going to lose and have to go forward from there.

Did you read the FasTrack? The CRB has proposed a completely different rule than the current one as it is written. Not sure how you can spin that as "upholding the rule as written." And as I have said multiple times, it is a change that would come at a great expense to a large number of the guys who were out getting the participation numbers up. If you think it's best for the class to tell every one of these people to stuff it, you are entitled to that opinion. Don't be surprised if the class drops off if you get your wish. If were talking about this before the cat was out of the bag, I would agree with your "purist" views about shifting. However, the cat left the bag long ago, years have past, and the best FBs are going fast enough that the manual shifters are just frustrating in their sporadic behavior on downshifts. Even smart people with skilled drivers have failed to get them to work consistently. Being unable to make your downshifts happen every other lap or whatever no matter how many mechanisms you try or how skilled the driver is just isn't my idea of racecraft. Believe me, I'd love to be able to ditch the air compressor, tank, actuators, GCU, 20-some wires, etc, if some mechanical linkage would work.

[starkejt]

How many engines has Niki blown up running at the front?

You'd have to ask him, but I was present at the runoffs when he was complaining about not being able to get his downshifts done consistently.

[JohnPaul]

Glad to hear someone finally got their head screwed on straight! These damn powerful motorcycles are a hazard to navigation and a menace to life & limb!
They terrify little old ladies and piss off guys in 5L Mustangs!

http://motorcycles.about.com/b/2010/...horsepower.htm

[Wren]

How many engines has Niki blown up running at the front?

What's the price of tea in China?

Making comparisons to the driver who is substantially better than everyone else in FB has zero relevance to the average guy out there.

I do know that Niki has mechanical shifter problems. Maybe he just needs you to fix it for him/show him how to prep a car?

[JohnPaul]

What's the price of tea in China?

Making comparisons to the driver who is substantially better than everyone else in FB has zero relevance to the average guy out there.

I do know that Niki has mechanical shifter problems. Maybe he just needs you to fix it for him/show him how to prep a car?

HA!

[John Mosteller]

It will be hard for you guys to convince me that the track will be littered with engine parts if you have to use a manual shifter.If you have to you will sort out the linkages and driving style and life will still be good.I know one guy that ran DSR and would blow up 3 engines every weekend until he ran out of money and finally found another hobby.But another driver in the same kind of car, same shifter, same engine and same engine builder never had even one blown engine in 4 years.

There is a big difference in having some inconsistant shifting and blowing engines up right and left.

[RobLav]

The attitude towards John is entirely too uncivil. He has invested time and money towards the goal of running in FB. His opinion matters just as much as as those who currently run.

Steve might be referring to me as one who left the class because of engine failures - probably due to over-rev. My three engine failures last year were:
1. Oil leak - low oil pressure for a few seconds killed a conrod bearing. The engine still ran.
2. In my rush to get engine #2 running, I did not tighten one spark plug nor the dry sump oil return line at the engine - resulting in another oil leak and imbalance. The conrod ventilated the block.
3. AC Moto engine that looked like it had been apart. While tearing down the car for Zetec conversion, I found a broken conrod bolt wedged next to the fuel cell. It was not discolored at all. I suspect someone had re-used the bolts. That engine lasted about 30 seconds under full throttle.

I don't believe I over-revved on downshifts, and the data show it. I also always used the clutch on downshifts, leaving it in until I got to the desired gear. The shift rod and heim joint mechanism worked very well all the time once I got used to it. 6th to 2nd was never a problem. 6th to 1st was occasionally difficult.

No idea where I'm going with this, but I'd prefer to leave the rules as they are currently written. But I also no longer have a dog in the fight.

[starkejt]

It will be hard for you guys to convince me that the track will be littered with engine parts if you have to use a manual shifter.If you have to you will sort out the linkages and driving style and life will still be good.I know one guy that ran DSR and would blow up 3 engines every weekend until he ran out of money and finally found another hobby.But another driver in the same kind of car, same shifter, same engine and same engine builder never had even one blown engine in 4 years.

There is a big difference in having some inconsistant shifting and blowing engines up right and left.

Multiple skilled drivers (I can think of 2 that each have 4 runoffs wins, but I don't mean to say others aren't as skilled), along with multiple smart people, trying multiple linkages, have been unable to make it work. Please finish your car, and start going fast. You will see it is not as simple as you think. There is a laptime threshold with the monster brakes on light cars with downforce at which the downshifts become frustrating at best. I really don't think the DSR comparisons are as valid as you suspect.

[Wren]

The attitude towards John is entirely too uncivil. He has invested time and money towards the goal of running in FB. His opinion matters just as much as as those who currently run.

I was cool with the opinions, it was the making **** up that turned me off.

Multiple skilled drivers (I can think of 2 that each have 4 runoffs wins, but I don't mean to say others aren't as skilled), along with multiple smart people, trying multiple linkages, have been unable to make it work. Please finish your car, and start going fast. You will see it is not as simple as you think. There is a laptime threshold with the monster brakes on light cars with downforce at which the downshifts become frustrating at best. I really don't think the DSR comparisons are as valid as you suspect.

The DSR comparisons may be more valid than you know. They are having the same problems.

The reality is that anyone who has gone fast with a mechanical linkage has had problems, especially at Road America.

John Mosteller][/B]
We each have differing opinions and at the end of the road on this issue one side or the other is going to lose and have to go forward from there.

That is where you are wrong and the point that several seem to be missing. People don't have to go forward from there if you screw them over. They might just decide to go somewhere else.
The guys with the geartronics are the reason there will be a national FB class after 2011 and you will continue to need them after that. FB barely made the participation numbers last year and if something like the Firman West guys decide they would rather run their new FC's or evidently Schweitz is going off to run his Piper FC or a few of the conversion guys start bolting their gearboxes back on then by the time you finish your car you will be running in FS at regionals.
The CRB decided to offer their special kind of help to the class at the worst possible time.

[Daryl DeArman]

Acting like there isn't a real reliability benefit to the geartronics shifter is just as silly as claiming that the reliability benefit is the only reason someone buys it.

I find it hard to believe we agree

[S Lathrop]

I didn't say he wasn't, and you're one of the guys I was talking about.


Listen, there's only one reason to keep the shifter rule as-is (which permits a closed-loop system) and that's to keep the rules stable and keep the class growing.
To say all the magical things that the system can do is insulting. If it can prevent engines from blowing up and cars from crashing and killing a busload of nuns, then the SCCA is negligent in not requiring it for every class. How in the world has FF, FC, F500, GT1, GT2, etc. gotten along without it?Think of the countless deaths that could have been prevented!



Wait, did I say F500?

Mike:

None of the cars you listed have 6 speed gear boxes, and none can top 150 mph on 2 straights at RA. And none can achieve the deceleration rates of a FB. Compared to FF and FC, the FB has way less mass to stop. Like it or not the FB is one of the highest performance cars raced in SCCA.

Like many things in racing, the rules makers write rules and the competitors figure ways around the rules. Someone will come up with a "mechanical" system that achieves what this system does but probably at twice the cost. What then have we accomplished?

[carnut169]

Good thing another thread was started. Very productive.

[brownslane]

GUYS GUYS GUYS!!

This whole thread has been about a couple of guys waving their d##cks at each other. I find the total lack of civility demeaning to you all.

You all know what has to be done; write your letters. It is obvious that the CRB does not read these posts other than perhaps for their entertainment.

I would suggest that a thread be started to form a letter that can be agreed to by all (THAT should be fun!! ) and can be sent to CRB as a petition. If two letters need to be sent, one for, one against, then so be it.

But this cannibalism not only is destructive, it is a waste of all your time.

You guys are great minds, committed competitors and super-smart about this class. If you weren't, the class would not be as great as it is today! Use your intensity and committment in a positive way; get the petition going and overwhelm the CRB with it; they cannot ignore a committed well stated petition with a majority of competitors.

I hate when crap like this has the ability to turn so many people aginst each other; You all deserve better!

Tom

[glenn cooper]

is a "dick waving" smilie icon to click on!!

Well said Tom O.

[cooleyjb]

is a "dick waving" smilie icon to click on!!

Well said Tom O.

Only for you Glenn. And if I get in trouble you better bring the BGE to VIR and cook some good food on it for me....

[brownslane]

The BEST response to end this thread on!!!

Joe, you ROCK!!
Tom

[dc]

I'm closing this thread down. We don't need two separate discussions on the exact same topic.