Here we go: ECU rule modification

[Wren]

There may be more HP available if you aren't concerned with certain safety margins that the factory put in place---granted those safety margins can certainly be narrowed/eliminated by reflashing.

It may not come down to actual HP to the wheel, rather better driveability in a variety of conditions.

I've heard from George and Arnie that there is not more power to be made over a stock ECU. I can't imagine that I would ever know more about it than them.

By the letter of the rule IMO it IS certainly legal. However, my common sense meter tells me that it may have been outside the intent of the rules writer. It may have started life as a Stand alone ECU, however if you remove the stock ecu and the motor won't function it clearly is no longer a stand alone ECU.

I'm thinking perhaps a SPEC low cost aftermarket ECU might be a viable alternative worth pursuing.

It isn't even legal by the letter. This bit about removing the stock ecu and the system no longer functioning appears nowhere in the GCR. It's one of those things that I keep hearing, but it is not any kind of rule. If you wanted to go by the exact letter of the rule, then none of the piggyback systems would even be legal. But, rules certainly have intent and trying to parse the GCR like a lawyer is a fool's errand.

[Daryl DeArman]

Wren, I'll agree that the factories all do a great job with these bikes. We'll just have to disagree whether more is available through tweaks to the ECU. No, I don't pretend to know more about this than GD or Loyning.

Regarding the stand alone issue---until a stand ALONE ECU is defined I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree because our definitions are clearly different.

Enjoy the game!

[Jnovak]

There is not extra HP from running a stand alone. The OEM's knew what they were doing.

There may not be more HP with a free ECU and most engines currently used in F1000. However a free ECU rule would open up the class to the newer 200hp engines such as the BMW & the Kawi. Then the development would start in earnest & costs will really escalate. I suspect that all of us would agree that 20 extra HP is a performance advantage & I am certain that that is what this entire discussion ia all about.

Now I am not at all against these new engines as long as they fit within the current rules & I would bet that the 1st time someone starts kicking ass with a new BMW or a new Kawi that the CRB will institute inlet restrictors to level the field as per allowed in the current F1000 rules.

Thanks ... Jay Novak

[Wren]

There may not be more HP with a free ECU and most engines currently used in F1000. However a free ECU rule would open up the class to the newer 200hp engines such as the BMW & the Kawi.

Absolutely. There are lots of potential for problems with this and not a lot of upside.

[Thomas Copeland]

What's wrong with restrictors on higher HP engines to level the playing field? You go in knowing that if you put an engine like that out there it's going to get some restriction placed on it. I don't see an issue.

[George Dean]

It looks to me like some people want to prepare for the future and some people want to wait until it gets here, I really dont know what to post on my opinion of the ecu rule but I do know as time goes by the electronics in the motorcycles that we extract these engines from are going to get alot more complex. I have watched this happen now for 35 years. We all have to remember that the engineers that designed and built these machines designed them as a complete system. That means from the front of the motorcycle to the tip of the tail pipe, Then we come along and put them in a car, When one or more components of that complete system are missing somtimes the engine and ECU dont work correctly, We have been lucky so far in most cases, But I know as time goes on our luck will run short and it will get harder to make these newer engines work properly for us. Right now there are no issues using engines that are a couple of years old, But one day they may not be so available, Yes they did sell a million 1000cc motorcycles, but not all of them are going to be available to be put on racecars, and there are other types of cars out there that use these engines, The dirt track guys out number us seems like 10 to 1. I guess sooner or later we will be faced with some problems that using stock electrics we cant over come, but until that day gets here... What are we going to do??

George

[Daryl DeArman]

What's wrong with restrictors on higher HP engines to level the playing field? You go in knowing that if you put an engine like that out there it's going to get some restriction placed on it. I don't see an issue.

You have two motors in FF and FC and it will take/took how long to achieve some degree of parity and how much data? Now, introduce 6 new motors a year. When they don't get it right the first time, how much time/$ do you spend trying to tune everytime they make a change? Look at FA/CSR and the engine tables. Develop package A to the rules and then have them change the rules on you in a heartbeat. You don't see an issue with that?

[Daryl DeArman]

The dirt track guys out number us seems like 10 to 1. I guess sooner or later we will be faced with some problems that using stock electrics we cant over come, but until that day gets here... What are we going to do??

At least 10:1, and then you have the Jr. Dragster series with their new-ish Jr. Comp class going after the motors as well.

What are we going to do? I'd guess stick our heads in the sand until it's an immediate problem. Some personalities are such as they don't like to look much past today. Others spend lots of time worrying about problems that may never be. IMO, we won't make changes now, we'll wait until it's a problem--then try to put the horse back in the barn, pissing a bunch of people off in the process.

[Jnovak]

I agree that we need to plan for the future, however, I am not a all convinced that free ECUs are the only answer. I think that we should first consider what the factories are doing in that they produce & sell ECUs for their race bikes & I can bet you that they are not setup for turn signals, kick stands etc. This has to be much more cost effective than an free ECU rule.

I am looking for racing ECUs for production 1000cc race engines. Here is the 1st one I have found:
The Yamaha racing ecu sells for $723 for the latest R1 engine.
Part # 14B-8591A-72 €532,67

I will find others as time permits.

Who would know better than the factories on how to run their engines?


Thanks ... Jay Novak

[Jnovak]

BMW sells a kit to eliminate the lights, kickstand an other devices. They also offer software to tune the ECU. I have read on the net that they also have a separate racing ECU but have not found it yet.

Link: http://www.alpharacing.com/produkt/p...rts.html#c1637

Thanks ... Jay Novak

[Wren]

What's wrong with restrictors on higher HP engines to level the playing field? You go in knowing that if you put an engine like that out there it's going to get some restriction placed on it. I don't see an issue.

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43314

[JohnPaul]

Seems like a lot of people are worried about these new monster HP engines hitting the market soon (and I understand why) I believe there will be a short time when there will be a big HP gap (maybe 2 years) but I simply don't know what anyone can do to stop that, and I don't know why anyone would feel alarmed about it, it was written into the rules that way, it's no surprise. Eventually all the motors will be within a few HP's and it'll be a (somewhat) level playing field. I could be wrong but I can't see engines doing another jump after this 200hp mark, they are just too fast and powerful even at 200hp (believe me I know). Let's face it, in 3-5 years no one will be running a 2010-11 engine (and be competitive). Eventually everyone here today that will still be racing FB's will have blown up their engines and need to get a new one. The guys now that can spend the money and develop these new ones will have done us a favor. I'd personally like to see this class get to 200 HP engines and be done. Also on another note, speaking to "the man" (everyone can guess who I'm speaking of) the CRB will be NOT be (and have no intentions) instituting restrictors even if FB's get into the 200 hp range.
Also, I don't believe the factory "race" ECU's are the trick as I imagine (and don't know for certain) that there things (motorcycle, two wheel things) other than kickstands and turn signals that make it difficult to stick into a car.
I guess what will have to happen is someone installs a new engine a la the "Philly Sal" piggyback aftermarket ECU with the Stock ECU and see if it stands up to Protest.

[DonArm]

One of the proposals was "any factory produced ecu", or you could substitute "only" instead of any, this would include the factory racing ecu. And leave it at that plain and simply.
As I mentioned all or almost all of the manufacturers have their own racing ecu as has now been mentioned by Jay N. also.
And the idea of using a restrictor would cause all kinds of problems, then you would really need to use a standalone.
The motorcycle engineers spend a lot of time designing the airbox and intake system to maximize efficiency.

[Wright D]

Performance Electronics ECU.

Don't get me wrong, I do not want to see the rules change, or cost of the series elevated. However, should a spec ECU rule come about, then I'd have to fully support the PE.

I have first hand experience using the Motec, Bosch systems, and the PE. The PE is a fraction of the cost of most ECU systems, and is designed specifically to run a high performance street bike engine.

The guys who run PE offer tech support that is unparalleled. In fact, they once stayed up all night with me, building a wiring harness and installing an ECU at the track, after our big buck Motec got fried by yours truly.

Here is their site:

http://www.pe-ltd.com/

[DonArm]

Spec will do one thing, increase the cost of racing in this class.
If people want spec then they should run in FE or FC.
When you limit supply to one source the price does only one thing.
In addition no one knows their own product better than the manufacturers, so use their equipment.

[Wright D]

Just to make sure it is clear, I don't want a spec ECU rule for F1000. Only wanted to point out that there are is a lower cost, and quite good alternative to the Motec.

Again, I say the leave rules as they are.