Cost of Tires and Motor - Non Competitive

[cfra_7]

Background:
I've had raced a Miata for 5 years. When that didn't go fast enough, I turbo charged the motor and reduced the cars reliability. Instead of building a new Miata motor, I've chosen to shop for my first race car. I've only driven two race cars in my life . The first was a Vintage FF which I though was wonderful. The second was a Winston Cup car that I didn't enjoy at all.

I have a few priorities in choosing a car:

1. Must be reasonably reliable.

2. Must look fast.

3. Must be affordable to maintain on a non-competitive level


That gives me some choices based on price range:

Under $15K:
FC - Reasonably reliable, look very cool, I hope is affordable to maintain but may be the most expensive option to maintain.

$15K to $20K:
FM - Not as fast looking as an FC but less expensive to maintain due to more robust motor. Difficult to find nice FM cars under $20K.

$20K to $25K:
Radical "D" sports racer. More reliable than FC but less than FM. Motors can be obtained in the junk yard for $1.5K and should last for at least 40 hours of racing.

$25K to $30K:
One year old SCCA Formula car. Best of everything but I may have to wait a few months to get one.


I would prefer to start with an FC due to the low initial cost and the wonderful people who currently own the cars. However, if after a few years of operation it would have been less expensive to have originally purchased one of the other cars, I would prefer to go that route.

The best thing for me is to understand the true cost of operating a non-competitive FC car. By non-competitive I mean that I don't care how many heat cycles are on the tires as long as they aren't past the wear bars. I also won't care if the motor is down on power as long as it isn't in danger of blowing apart.

A friend who races "D" sports says that you can get 10 to 20 hours of track time out of a set of tires as long as you don't mind that you will be running considerably slower by the end of the season. He says that you are not in danger of actually wearing the ties past the wear bars in just 10 hours of track time and that the only reason racers change tires is to be competitive and not because the tires are ready to blow.

How may hours of track time can you get out of a set of FC tires before they have been worn too much to use? Does it matter of you have a rocker car vs. and early pushrod car?

I also understand that someone who is competitive on a regional level rebuilds the motor every 20 hours and probably goes through the head once every 10 hours. Is this necessary? Can I have an engine builder build me an engine for longevity if I'm willing to sacrifice HP? Would it help if I reduced the RPM limit? If I can't get at least 40 hours of track time on a motor I don't want it.

Please note that I'm not someone with visions of glory. I just want to have fun. I understand that If I do get the competitive bug, costs go up dramatically. It would also be nice to know howo often the average regional driver changes tires and rebuilds a motor. I would also like to know the cost of the average rebuild and the average set of tires.

If your answer could be expressed in hours and not race weekends because the number of hours in a race weekend can very.

I would finally like to say that the most persuasive argument I've heard for buying an FC car is the great people I've talked to. I can't imagine a better group of people to spend time with.

[EYERACE]

then buy FF, no wing repairs to absorb, the motor will not clean the teeth off a set of gears like FC can, can be very reliable and you could wear a set of hoosier R60 down to the cord,,,and don't tell me a swift or 90's edition VD look slow - especially when they have A arms that give maximum track width

[Todd TCE]

I agree, why are you overlooking the FF or CFF?

It meets all your requirements but the 'must look fast' part!

Run it for a few years and then consider if you want to move on to a FC/FM or whatever. Like I always say; if you can't win in a FF, what makes you think you can win in a faster car?

[D.T. Benner]

WOW! thats a lot for one post! I think you make to big an issue about the tires. If you don't care about being competitive you can buy used tires from the guys who only run them a few heat cycles[thats what i did when i first started] They go cheap as most guys would rather get $100 for somthing they were probably going to throw away! If you want something low maintainence buy a Zetec or Formula Mazada-GAG!!! If you get into the FSCCA you will be in with the GoKart kids who want to be the next F1 star. Whats nice about FC is as you said the people. We tend to be more likely to share info,parts and set up with our fellow FC guys. You may find that you can be faster than you think when you get a car setup and working. These cars are very happy when setup properly and when your car is working properly you get more confident. I have found that a Formula car is sometimes evel when NOT driven at the level where the setup is sweet. I have a friend who went from a Honda CRX to a Formula Atlantic Swift 008 and his learning curve has been steep but he's having FUN! Come join us in F2000.

[cfra_7]

Yes, the FF doesn't look fast enough to meet my needs and I also understand that it is no less expensive to operate than an FC as long as I keep the FC on the track.

You have alleviated my fears concerning the tire situation. The last issue is the motor requiring a $4K rebuild every 20 hours. I come for spec Miata where a motor requires a rebuild every 5 to 10 years.

I know that for some, FM is an evil word. Is it the car or the drivers? If I did buy an FM I wouldn't race it in SCCA and therefore the people wouldn't be an issue. But is there a problem with the car that I'm not aware of? It sounds like a real low maintenance fast car. Not as nice looking as an FC but after a few years of FM it seems like you would have saved enough money to buy an FC for weekend use.

Then there is the "D" sport. Once again fast and less expensive to operate. I would prefer to go with the FC but I need something to justify the double or triple operating costs over the FM and "D" sports.

[Curtis Boggs]

Ed,

I went through the same thing, .. and a few friends talked me into FF, .. the best thing I ever did!

I saved a ton of money by NOT having wings and a diffuser to replace every time I spun, .. and while learning I spun a bunch.

Yes costs are very close for FC & FF. The primary thing that will reduce the time between engine rebuilds is how hard you run it and the number of over revs.

On my 1600, .. peak power is at 6250, .. and I never shift above 6500. With 1200 race miles on the engine it's still as strong as ever and leaks down like an engine with 1/3 the time.

Treat a pinto or 1600 like this, .. it'll go much farther.
Another thing to concider is most people talk about 20 hour rebuilds, .. but they are also looking to keep the last 10% of power. You can go more.

FC is a great deal right now, as is FF, .. cars upto 97 or so are a good deal. I'd get a 95 or 96 myself. Use a pro engine builder and let them know you want it to last, .. they can help.

As for D sports, .. if you want to run on a natioanl level, .. they are using high dollar rods & pistons, .. ported heads ( I build them)and have a reduced time between rebuilds, .. "junk yard" engines aren't run stock. D cars are expensive.

Curtis

[98Vandiemen]

Go for either FF or FC. The one year old FSCCA cars aren't going for 25-30k, it more like 40K, and currently prices on both FC's and FF's are resonable as Curtis said.

[cfra_7]

You have a lot of good information to share. I'll speak with an engine builder and see if it is possiable to build a long hour motor with less HP and a lower RPM shift point. I don't even require that it meets SCCA rules. I'll be too slow and underpowered to care. However, I'll still get to hangout with great people and if my budget increases in the future, I can then get the 20 hour rebuilds.

[Rick Kirchner]

So, you're up between SAC and Reno, if you aren't going to race SCCA, are you planning on running vintage, NASA, TCC, or just track days?

By the way, if you search the threads for "costs" I think you'll find a general consensus, that non-competitive costs for a Pinto FC are roughly $200/weekend for the motor and $250/weekend for the tires and $100/weekend for the gearbox (20 hr motor, three weekend tires starting with new ones, gearbox rebuild/R&P every couple of years). The other variable costs get into replacing mandated safety gear (belts every 2, helmet every 5). Tow costs, entry fees, crash damage, and what ever you can fool yourself into believing the resale value of the car will be at the end, versus what you pay to get into one to start.

At the bottom end, it's a thousand bucks a weekend, IF you are easy on the equipment, based on one hour of track time. A bit less per hour if you do practice days in conjunction with race weekends or double race weekends.

[size="1"][ December 26, 2003, 02:53 AM: Message edited by: Rick Kirchner ][/size]

[EYERACE]

ok so you told me that either a FF Swift or a 90's decade VanDieman just don't look fast enough, and eye say, go get your eyes examined! just drive one would be the best way of getting said exam

[Fred Michael]

If you are not going to run SCCA, then buy the DSR as there are not very many places to run a formula car outside of SCCA in Northern California.

Fred

[Thomas Copeland]

I've run race tires right down to the canvas on more than one occasion in an attempt to save $$. I haven't bought race tires since September 2001! In 2002 I ran a shorten season (5 weekends) with a tire budget of $0. Ran entire year on tires from previous year. Last year I ran in 5 weekends I paid $0 again. Ran practice sessions on the best looking tires left over from Sept 2001, and races on a new set I got when I bought a new car in February '03. Probably could have done the entire season with one additional set. I have seen some guys (Madza maniacs mostly) go through 2 sets in one weekend. So it's all relative. Running on used worn tires has set me back 2 to 7 seconds a lap depending on how I feel that day. Sometimes I'm closer, but rarely. But I've also won my class on them too (competition was lightweight even though they ran new tires).

If you are looking to keep overall costs down over a long haul go with the FSCCA. The duratec engine will last longer than the Pinto will. Rather than spend thousands on a rebuild you can practially throw it away..or so I've heard. Wish we had an engine like that in FC. The engine in my current car has been in it since Dec 2000. But it only has 450 miles on it. I'll run it all this season if I can.

I've driven FF, FC, Sports 2000, SRF, etc. From my perspective I enjoy FC the most. The cars and the people. Why else would I tolerate all the ills that goes with competing in this class? This is the only true racing class in the SCCA (maybe FA comes close).

Expressing cost on an hourly basis is difficult. I once spent $500 to compete one weekend at Sears Point. This equats to about 1 hour of racing or $500 hour. This is probably as cheap as you can get it. But expect to pay about $200-$300 more. That's $800 an hour.

[OWRScott]

Guys,

I'm thinking along the sames lines as this fellow and would like to revive this thread just to ask for further information on the maintenance costs.

If you need to go through the head every 10 hours and rebuild every 20 hours what are you looking at? Is a double race weekend about 2 - 2.5 hours of track time? So if you made it to a 4 or 5 weekends a year would you need an engine rebuild half way through the season?

The mid 90s cars are in my price range but this kind of maintenance could really blow my budget.

On another note I need to complete driving school still and plan to do so early next year. Does anybody know someone who has reasonable FC school rental rates in CENDIV? (Most likely at a Michigan track)

Any help you folks could offer would really be appreciated.

Thanks,
Scott

[Purple Frog]

For inexpensive rentals check with Keith Averill
632 Ajax Drive,Madison Heights,Michigan,48071 USA
email: information@racing-stuff.com
Phone 248-585-9139

Also you can check with Rob St. Clair @ St. Clair Motorsports 734-427-8596 Livonia MI

A mid-season head "refresh" can cost as little as $250 if you do the R&R. (new springs, lap valves, new gaskets)

And, those duty cycle times listed earlier in the thread are for very competitive national folks. In the beginning, getting through drivers school and doing some regionals, you probably can go longer into the duty cycle. I know in one low budget year I actually went over 25 hours on a pinto before a refresh. It's not like they are going to gernade on you, they just get soft on power.

Figure (without testing) about 70 minutes per race on the average.

[mark defer]

i just got my engine back from elite. it's previous rebuild was aug of last year. after that rebuild i did the mid ohio national and the runoffs. then i ran the 2 florida races in jan. add in 7 more nationals throughout the summer. when you factor in 6 test days i must have over 20 hours on that last rebuild. during the whole time the head was never off. the only maintainence done was oil changes and valve adjustments. the current rebuild was approx $3500, so that works out to somewhere less than $200/hr. pretty cheap actually. the crazy thing is, although st clair was telling me we were getting some fairly substantial leak down numbers, i was still getting competitors remarking about how strong the thing was.

mark d

[formulasuper]

I guess that $3500 includes resleeving the block, is that right?

[TimW]

Originally posted by Purple Frog:
I know in one low budget year I actually went over 25 hours on a pinto before a refresh. It's not like they are going to gernade on you, they just get soft on power.

Can the same be said for the 1600?

[mark defer]

no, the block was not resleeved. it was a basic rebuild, bearings, pistons, rings, gaskets, plugs, belts, supplies, freight, dyno time, magnaflux, etc. other than normal items replaced were some exhaust valves and a new clutch and pressure plate.

mark d

[David Ferguson]

I also am getting great reliability and performance from an Elite Engine in my S2. I put in a zero hour engine for the Runoffs last year, and last weekend I set new lap record times at Infineon with the same engine. According to my data system, that engine has 34 hours of operation, (17 hours above 5000 RPM and 24 minutes over 7000 RPM). I have changed the oil twice, and the plugs once. Except for a cracked mechanical fuel pump, I have done no other service to it except check the valve clearance/rocker condition if I had a big overrev. Once an engine has all the good stuff in it, they are really good performers for a long time. If I was a non-competitive guy, I would expect to run it for 2 or 3 seasons (because I wouldn't be racing as much as I do currently).

I don't think any of the bike engined cars are experiencing the same life/reliability (especially the ones that run at the front!).

[RS Motorsport]

Originally posted by D.T. Benner:
If you get into the FSCCA you will be in with the GoKart kids who want to be the next F1 star.

This was one of the ways the car was marketed, but the VAST majority of FSCCA owners/drivers are a natural cross section of SCCA membership.

There have been no issues (not one) I've heard about an inexperienced driver causing a problem on or off track.

It doesn't sound like FSCCA is a good choice under these criteria, but don't exclude it based on that comment because it hasn't turned out to be accurate.

Just my thoughts,

Jeff

[formulasuper]

There have been no issues (not one) I've heard about an inexperienced driver causing a problem on or off track.

I have heard of one.

[RS Motorsport]

Not taking the last post personally of course because there probably has been at LEAST one, but in the scope of all classes it's probably fair to say that FSCCA has had fewer issues caused by what I'll call "whipper snappers" than other less expensive classes.

I realize this verges on being a arrogant statement and I sincerely don't mean it that way at all, but....

Beginners generally buy less expensive first cars and because the FSCCA is more expensive than many options the result is that there are fewer true beginners driving FSCCA.

It was originally promoted as being a ladder vehicle with which one could progress up to other forms of open wheel racing (maybe some assumed it was the first rung). BUT, the marketing was done to the karting crowd, FM, and other similar folks that would have real experience already.

I can fully understand how one might be concerned that it could be full of unproven upstarts in fast (and reltively expensive) cars, but it just hasn't played out that way in my opinion.

Jeff

[problemchild]

There are going to be young "whipper-snappers" in any competitive class. Occasional controversey, over-aggressive driving, driving mistakes, and the participation of young up-and-comers just means that the racing is good and hard. That is what has attracted us to FF/FC in the first place.

I expect that Formula SCCA is probably the best answer to the question that was originally asked here by cfra_7. He can probably get a sweetheart deal on a car right now and by the time he gets the car and himself sorted out ... the class will have stabilized. The political and marketing issues have forever damaged most of our opinions about the new class .... but the theoretical reasons behind the class will likely prevail.

Not all go-karters are young lunatics. The "car" classes that can attract the karting crowd are the ones most likely to survive!

Greg
PS ... Not a kart guy. Not a SCCA guy. Trying to keep an open mind!

[Barry Haynie]

Ditto on my Elite
Bought car after 02 runoffs and ran the engine the whole 03 season with fall off coming after 10 races. Sent back to Elite, needed sleeving, $4200 total and have run it very hard all year with some buzzing and it has never missed a beat! Its acting a little tired now but strong enough to run down the strong (Elite too) 2nd place car from greater than 10 secs back after a spin from second place. Yes, you guessed it, I am pretty pleased with my Elite.

[Mark H]

I have 1600 mi on my engine and it still pulls hard (but its a Nelson) and will go to 3 more races before a freshining.
But as far as tires go 5 cycles and your off a sec.at least and man the car will start to push.
Don't sell yourself short stay on good tires, its no fun on greesy tires! [img]graemlins/skull.gif[/img]

[formulasuper]

its no fun on greesy tires!

by Mark H.


Oh yes it is, much more fun than watching from trackside or sitting on the sofa! If I had to buy new tires to race I wouldn't be racing. I learned many years ago that racing is fun no matter where you are in the pack and if it were not for the nonleaders the fields would be very small, now wouldn't they?! [img]graemlins/skull.gif[/img]

[carnut169]

Shouldn't you be in Savannah right now?

[formulasuper]

I'm out the door!

[RS Motorsport]

A bad day racing beats the %^&*( out of a good day working.

[LV2RACE]

I too, am new to open wheel racing. I currently autocross and race a Corvette on weekends (stock class) and am looking to get into open wheel racing.

At Bondurant I drove the open wheel cars for a day and a half and decided it's what I really want to do. My son and I are going to make it a joint venture but we are inexperienced so we don't know what to buy.

Our first concern is getting a car that will fit us. I'm 5'-11, 190 lbs with broad butt and shoulders and my son is 6'-1", 235 lbs with similar build. My question to the forum is: "What year/models of FC, FF, or FM will fit us?

Thanks in advance for the replies . . .

[Wooly]

Since you are in Tempe you should talk with Todd Cook 480.967.7901 and Mosses Smith (Todd can get you in touch with Mosses, who also has a FM or two available).

Wooly

[Purple Frog]

5'10" 190 will fit almost every car but a '97 VD. And you would fit that, but uncomfortably, mainly because of shoulder width.
6'1" 235... Is making it a bit tougher. A lot depends on leg length. Butt size is usually not an issue, shoulder width can be in some chassis.

Much in terms of car choice depends on the budget you have.
If you are lower budget and starting in a CFC type car. I would recommend a late 80's Reynard over the Swift, because the Reynards are a bit roomier.
Usually if you hang out at events, you can ask to sit in a lot of cars. Just don't ask 10 minutes before they should be on grid. By taking the driver's bead seat out, you will get a rapid idea of how roomy a particular chassis is. Don't judge a chassis by sitting in the owner's seat.
On the upper budget end, most of the FC cars built after 1998 probably could be made to fit. I'm 6'0, 200 and can shoehorn into my '98 Tatuus, and an extra inch in height would still fit.
The Formula Mazda would be an easy fit for both of you. FM might be a smart choice for a beginner due to ease of maintenance, and you may not suffer as much a "weight penalty" being 200 - 235lb. It's very hard/expensive to make minimum weight in FC if the driver is 200 lb or more. The new Pro Mazda also is very roomy.
The new Formula SCCA car also would accommadate both of you. It has a fairly roomy chassis.
So there's lots of choices available.

[John Green]

Do not dispare! I am 6'1" and 220lb. I fit just fine in my 94 Van Diemen. And I am within 10 -12 lbs. of minimum weight.

[LV2RACE]

Thanks gentlemen, I appreciate the input. I've been tempted by a VD RF84 FC but the current owner said it is narrow. I know it's non-competitive but right now I'm just interested in racing for my own amazement and I want to keep the cost low so that the SAF is acceptable.

[John Green]

I also had one of the few FC 1984 VD's. I fit in it just fine. The only weird thing was feeling the front shocks move as your legs sit right next to them. It is not a bad car....it was originally a FF up against the Swift DB1 and was never fully developed. I went pretty damn quick with one in the early 90's.

[LV2RACE]

John,
I've got size 12 feet - now I'm wondering if there'll be enough room in the foot well of an 84 VD for me.

[LV2RACE]

So - was the VD RF84 originally an FF converted by the factory to FC or, were the conversions made by owners? It does look damn fast though, just sittin' there . . .

[Jason Aranha]

I agree with the tight fit of a RF84 I have one that I run as a FF. I am 5'11" and 145lbs and confortable, however with the original seat I dont think anyone much bigger would be able to fit. The roll bar on some RF84s are a bit lower then most other cars ive seen, so I would also look at the height. I would definatelly go check out the car and sit in it. I have size 10 shoes, I left foot brake and still have some room on the pedals, so I think with practice you would be ok.

[John Green]

My 84 VD was not a converted FF...it was an original FC. I fit fine (not using the original seat) at 6'1" and 220lbs.

[LV2RACE]

I agree I should check it out; however, I'm in Arizona and the car is in Connecticut. Got to get all my ducks lined up before I commit to such a long trip.

I can take out the original seat and either sit on the skid pan or fashion a seat of 1/2" or 1" closed cell foam to get down under the roll bar. At the worst I can get a new roll bar for a couple hundred bucks or so. Any opinions on what an RF84 should go for?