my next question... what chassis?

[vdrcr]

Yikes! which chassis are $30 large?

[Matt King]

The "$30K" figure probably comes from the price of a new, complete Vortech. The Vortech kits range from about $11K to $14K depending on options, so you could easily spend 30 to get one on track.

[FVRacer21]

30k chassis; 9K engines-- for a vee?! Often wondered why the class died in Socal. Now I get it!

Don't keep spreading false numbers.

A good vee can be any were from $6000 - $14,000 depending on what you want to do.

Can you build a $35,000 FV? Probably - but wouldn't you feel silly getting beaten by a $12,000 one?

ChrisZ

[davidb]

Don't keep spreading false numbers.

A good vee can be any were from $6000 - $14,000 depending on what you want to do.

Can you build a $35,000 FV? Probably - but wouldn't you feel silly getting beaten by a $12,000 one?

ChrisZ

Me, spreading false numbers?? I'm just alluding to what I read on this thread.

Personally, I couldn't care less; trust me, I'm not going to drop that kind of dough on a FV.

But, that said, what is available for 6K? Not much I expect. I'm not talking vintage. a Formcaror ancient AD isn't of much interest to anyone anymore.

[FVRacer21]

Me, spreading false numbers?? I'm just alluding to what I read on this thread.

Personally, I couldn't care less; trust me, I'm not going to drop that kind of dough on a FV.

But, that said, what is available for 6K? Not much I expect. I'm not talking vintage. a Formcaror ancient AD isn't of much interest to anyone anymore.

http://www.formulavee.org/interchang...php?f=9&t=3975 (Mysterian finished 2nd this year)

http://www.formulavee.org/interchang...php?f=9&t=3892 (project car but a steal at that price)

From http://sracing.com/ForSale/forsale.htm (links may not work)

FOR SALE - Lynx B for sale. I'm listing this for a friend who has no internet access so please call seller. This is a Lynx B, very well made, with American Flag graphics. Clean car, engine re-built a few races ago by DDC racing. Has only run at Waterford Hills. (Photo) Asking $5000 or offer. Call Dave Kneir 248-561-5081 (06/15/10) A Lynx is only a few steps away from a Mysterian with lots of parts, updates and support.

FOR SALE -1971 Lynx B Formula Vee Race package: $6000 obo Strong regional 1200cc engine with 3 race weekends zero-roll rear suspension RMVR and SCCA logbooks. LRE longbox transmission. Three sets of wheels. One mounted with sticker tires, one with rains, one with one race weekend tires. New front shocks, new brake master cylinders. Front crossbeam just rebuilt. Momo steering wheel. Fire system fully charged. Battery new last year. Some spares. Extra body (not RMVR legal, but SCCA legal).. (Photo1) (Photo2) (Photo3) Includes single axle trailer. Please contact Bob at bobdixon@frii.com. (05/18/10)

And there were a bunch of Citations and other "modern" cars sold in the last year for under $10,000.

Could they win the Runoffs - probably not. How about regionals? Yes.

Now that a VDF has won the Runoffs, will everyone want one? - depends on availability.

Wll they go up in value - probably. Can you run FV and win in another car - definitely.

Racing FV in SOCAL didn't die because of the price of the cars - look for something else.

ChrisZ

[samiam520]

David,

Chris is right on, there are many very competitive Vee's for $5K-8K available in today's economy.

You could also check out VARA since you are in SoCal. They have a great Vee program that would be inexpensive and fun.

We ran the last VARA event at Buttonwillow in our modern FV, they had 18 Vee's and 4 different classes based on the vintage of the car.

Send me a PM if you are truly interested in a very competitive modern FV in the 6K-7K range. I can direct you to at least two of them up here in Nor Cal.

[Tiago Santos]

I think the runoffs this year prove what I've said here before - it's not the car that wins the runoffs! I'm sure some cars have small advantages over others, but with the right driver and the right setup (which I guess is part of having the right driver!) I honestly think most cars could win the runoffs. Of course, assuming comparable engines

[Hardingfv32]

Let's see... right car, right tires, right engine and the luck NOT to be the first driver on the oil spill. So after all that the driver is still the most important? Sounds like a driver's ego talking. They always think the are the most important thing on earth.

Brian

[Tiago Santos]

No no no, I specifically left RIGHT CAR out of it.

I don't see how what I said translates into driver's ego. I never said I was any good, far from it. It is pretty obvious to me though that in a class like ours, the driver is the main performance affecting variable - in that it's the driver that controls (or should, at least I'm sure the guys who are winning the runoffs do) how the car is setup, directly or indirectly.

Of course engines matter, if you've only got 61 or 65 or whatever it is HP, 1hp makes a pretty big difference. But I'd like to believe all the top FV cars at the runoffs were making similar power numbers.

Anyway, sorry that I don't buy into the whole vortech/protoform thing. But to me the whole point of driving a Vee is that driver skills matter a lot. Not saying I am a very skilled driver, I'm not. But I believe FV races are usually won by the best driver at the track, not the most expensive car. How is that so offensive, anyway?

[FVRacer21]

Let's see... right car, right tires, right engine and the luck NOT to be the first driver on the oil spill. So after all that the driver is still the most important? Sounds like a driver's ego talking. They always think the are the most important thing on earth.

Brian

Brian,

Always throw gasoline when water will do.....

I was looking through my note from 1996 and looking at Tom Kaufman's notes on how well he expected his car (the VDF) to do at the Runoffs...... The 14 year overnight sensation....

The Mysterian I believe is older. Protoforms are no spring chickens and the Vortech dates back to at least 2003. Even the SpeedSport is now what - 5 years old? If anything, you can make the argument you have to build your own car to win. And that might be the trick. The guys who run up front, and I am including Davis and Womer in this, know their cars inside out and upside down. And as drivers, if they don't, they have a crew member or someone working with them who does.

I will take Roger or Steven or Ed. Give them any car and a couple of months and they will have that car in the top 5.

The package - shocks, engine, tranny, alignment etc. is what is important and with a good engine builder, it comes down to hard work and experience.

Now I will go out on a limb and say that guys who have spent time in a wind tunnel, or doing aerodynamic tests will have an advantage. Someday we might end up with a Handford device or other aerodynamic handicap if someone gets too ahead of the curve.

Aerodynamically. right now I believe the Mysterian is handicapped compared to the other cars (although you can't tell by Roger's drive!) and the Citation is also missing something (what happened to all the Brewer tails?). Training arms have a disadvantage in aero to leading arm cars, but balance that in handling and braking.

I think a modified Laser or BRD could still be competitive.

So pick your poison and get to work.

ChrisZ

[samiam520]

Obviously you have to be a good driver to win the runoffs, however, at the top level in any class, it is the car that makes the ultimate difference. F1 is a perfect example of that. Last year Button is better then everyone and this year he is struggling to be in the top 5??? Has he forgotten how to drive? not likely....... his car just isn't as good as his competitors.

HP and corner speed win races in FV, and every other class. If you have more then your competitor then you will win the majority of the time.

[Tiago Santos]

By the way, I will correct what I said above in that when I said car, I meant chassis.

Still, I don't think it contradicts what has been said - what do you think would give best results:

1) Pick a mysterian, or a laser, or a citation or hell, a lynx!.. Give it to one of the recognized top drivers out there, or simplify and give it to one of the top 5 drivers at the runoffs. Have him set it up whichever way he likes and drive it for 6 months.

2) Pick a Vortech or a speedsport or a VDF (hehe..) - give it to someone in the lower half of the table at the runoffs (Mike Varacins and any other oil slick victims not included :P) and let him set it up any way he wants and drive it for 6 months.

I know who I'd put my money on.

Maybe I'm not clear enough when I say the car (chassis) doesn't matter - of course the end product is extremely important. But I do believe that most available chassis are up to the task of winning races, given the right setup and driver.

[samiam520]

I would be willing to bet that Varacins could win the runoffs, at RA, with any of the cars that you just mentioned as long as he had 6 months to get ready and could use his engine, suspension, and knowledge.

The point that I am trying to make is that all of those cars are capable of winning. It just depends how much effort you are willing to put in. For the past couple of years Mike is putting in more effort then anyone else.

[Bill Bonow]

Even the SpeedSport is now what - 5 years old?

Chris,

I remember seeing a photo Butch had of MV in the AM-3 at the 1997 Runoffs.

[Matt King]

No doubt the driver and overall preparation of the package are the dominant factors for success, but from what I understand there are also significant improvements to aerodynamics, specifically as it affects cylinder head cooling, with some of the newer designs that contribute as well.

[Tiago Santos]

The point that I am trying to make is that all of those cars are capable of winning. It just depends how much effort you are willing to put in. For the past couple of years Mike is putting in more effort then anyone else.

Exactly!

[sracing]

I would be willing to bet that Varacins could win the runoffs, at RA, with any of the cars that you just mentioned as long as he had 6 months to get ready and could use his engine, suspension, and knowledge....

Finally an intelligent answer. There are a few things aerodynamically and head cooling that help out, but even those could be modified a bit in almost any of the newer (15 years) designs. The biggest single thing is the driver and prep edge.

[Hardingfv32]

1) Gasoline is sometimes needed to keep energy in a thread.

2) unxetas... Not critiquing your driving, just challenging your opinion of that driver's importance in this discussion.

3) Nothing about a FV makes the driver any more important than if he was driving another type of car. HP and corner speed win races in every class.

4) If the cooling ducts are that critical, why after 35-40 years of belt-less running is there no clear answer to duct design in FV?

Brian

[MarkFV]

You might consider a Caracal D. I have one that I have run for 10 years.

It does accomodate wide shoulders and has a taller roll hoop.

That's the first thing, find a car that fits you.

With a fresh Dietmar Engine and a modest spares kit I want $7500

Contact me via e-mail if interested in details.

[vdrcr]

question? what factors effect cylinder head cooling? which cars seem have the best designs? and while i'm at it, can anyone tell me what some of the new aero developements are?

[Jean-Sebastien Stoezel]

I would be willing to bet that Varacins could win the runoffs, at RA, with any of the cars that you just mentioned as long as he had 6 months to get ready and could use his engine, suspension, and knowledge.

The point that I am trying to make is that all of those cars are capable of winning. It just depends how much effort you are willing to put in. For the past couple of years Mike is putting in more effort then anyone else.

I keep hearing about Mike Varacins suspension, but I haven't seen it. What is so particular to it?

[sracing]

question? what factors effect cylinder head cooling? which cars seem have the best designs? and while i'm at it, can anyone tell me what some of the new aero developements are?

They are interchangable. Cooling the heads with the least possible drag aerodynamically is a big issue. Some of the newest cars do this best. That is one of the leading/trailing arm issues. Mike (Varacins) spent some time in the wind tunnel. If I remember correctly Al told me they found a couple HP there over their original design.

Most all of these things across the most modern cars are very slight in total, but everything helps. Assuming equal engines, the driver and prep makes far more difference. If Al makes 30 more cars this year and they all start the run-offs next year, the results (aside from mishaps) won't change at all. No one mid pack is going to move to the front and vis versa. (and if you put this years front runners in Lynx's they will still finish up front.)

[Hardingfv32]

The Varacins rear suspension uses a true mono shock rocker system which provides a low shock mounting position. It is setup to function as a normal zero roll rear suspension. There is a roll limiting feature and possible variable rate motion ratio, but beyond that nothing any different in function than all the other zero roll rear suspensions.

You guys will have to look elsewhere for his mechanical grip advantage.

Brian

[veefan]

[FONT=Verdana]I heard a few years ago that the runoff winner (in a Vortech???), jumped into a correctly setup Zink a few months later and won a race against all modern Vees. Driver skill and car setup play a big role in going fast. [/FONT]

[Hardingfv32]

Blah, blah, blah.... How are such stories going to improve your competitiveness? Is this someway of justifying an inferior car? Very thing is additive: the best driver in the best car will always be faster than a weaker combination.

Brian

[Hardingfv32]

Jim

Have you seen much performance variability with different head cooling temps on the dyno? I'm assuming a constant oil temp.

Brian

[Matt King]

Every thing is additive: the best driver in the best car will always be faster than a weaker combination.

Brian

If the top five or ten guys at any given Runoffs were in Lynxs, the relative results probably wouldn't be much different than if they were all in Vortechs. But if nine of them were in Vortechs, good luck to the guy in the Lynx!

[csatte02]

If you can get in a car and can get close to min weight, you will have an advantage over quite a few drivers. There were still a lot of different makes running in the top group at the runoffs. Obviously the Vortech and Speedsports are great cars, but it was proven that you can have a VDF, Mysterian, or a a few other cars and win. I like my Caracal C and it (I) get faster every time I drive it.

[sracing]

Jim

Have you seen much performance variability with different head cooling temps on the dyno? I'm assuming a constant oil temp.

Brian

Significant. Run the engine up on the dyno, hold it at peak HP, then spray some water on the heads.. Watch what happens..

[Speed Sport Engineering]

I keep hearing about Mike Varacins suspension, but I haven't seen it. What is so particular to it?

The rear shock in our car is mounted under the gearbox and runs front to back in the car. It was designed to provide a true rising rate, but what makes it really unique is it allows for adjustable roll resistance. Not only can the amount of roll resistance be adjusted, but it can be set up to have different amounts for left or right turns.

Having the weight of the assembly and shock that low in the car helps too.

[vdrcr]

sweet mother of all suspensions!!!
that sounds cool! also seems like it works. i'm always looking for ways to lower the center of gravity. can it be retrofitted to any other cars? you might get a few buyers here if it could...

[Jean-Sebastien Stoezel]

The rear shock in our car is mounted under the gearbox and runs front to back in the car. It was designed to provide a true rising rate, but what makes it really unique is it allows for adjustable roll resistance. Not only can the amount of roll resistance be adjusted, but it can be set up to have different amounts for left or right turns.

Having the weight of the assembly and shock that low in the car helps too.

Thanks for the explanations. I'm located in Canada and I race FV here. I only get to follow what's happening in FV in the US via a couple of forums like apexspeed. Your suspension seems to make a lot of waves, and for somebody who hasn't seen it, it's starting to be quite mythical.

[Hardingfv32]

Well boys and girls, could the secret be the "true rising rate"? What do you think that means for the rear suspension in the corners?

And yes, other cars have had rising rate rear suspensions, but not as aggressive of a rate as in the instance.

Brian

[samiam520]

Significant. Run the engine up on the dyno, hold it at peak HP, then spray some water on the heads.. Watch what happens..

Well boys and girls I want to guess......... it produces Steam, right ?????

[sracing]

That also.

[FVRacer21]

Well boys and girls, could the secret be the "true rising rate"? What do you think that means for the rear suspension in the corners?

And yes, other cars have had rising rate rear suspensions, but not as aggressive of a rate as in the instance.

Brian

"Not only can the amount of roll resistance be adjusted, but it can be set up to have different amounts for left or right turns."

Or could it could be that he can control the roll resistance. As someone who spent a lot of time in a Z bar car, each design has its pluses and minuses.

With a Z bar you have a very limited range to work in before you go into an oversteer situation. With Zero roll, the front end becomes very sensitive (hence the work with expensive front shocks).

If you can have zero roll AND control over rear roll stiffness, you can control camber on all 4 tires better and since he says he can adjust from side to side, he can really work on getting the car to handle in the Carousel, which would give great exit onto the longest straight (the run down to Canada).

Sounds like he has more tools to play with and really worked hard to optimize them.

ChrisZ

[problemchild]

Chris,
Only problem with your theory is ... the carousel is flat easily for everybody (accept when oiled down). There are many factors affecting terminal speed on the run down to Canada but handling through the carousel is not near the top of the importance list.

[FVRacer21]

Chris,
Only problem with your theory is ... the carousel is flat easily for everybody (accept when oiled down). There are many factors affecting terminal speed on the run down to Canada but handling through the carousel is not near the top of the importance list.

Greg,

(This is getting off topic a little - still, we are looking at differences in chassis...)

As I have not driven there except in a Skip Barber Van, many years ago, I have to ask some questions:

Last year Mike looked more hooked up in the carousel than anyone else . This year everyone looked better, but the line seemed to have moved in a bit. Just like the "new" line at Lime Rock (Big Bend) where people stay tight, it looked like most drivers were keeping it tucked in rather than drifting out - is this true?

How were race times compared to qualifying times? Last year Mike was 1.5 seconds faster than everyone, This year the race times were much closer. Was the cooler weather a factor in the handling in that turn?

Tires - any difference in tires from last year to this?

Finally, flat is flat for you, but flat can be different for other drivers. Car attitude can affect scrubbing. you would have to have a speed or segment time. Looks like you spend about 14 seconds in the carousel - that's a lot of time. Looking at Chris J. video, Roger seems really hooked up in the turn, but gets eaten alive from a draft. Were there cars that still pulled you in that turn?

Thanks

ChrisZ

[Hardingfv32]

The turn before the Carousel is actually the beginning of the back straight sequence. It is a left, while the other two straights start with rights. Not sure an asymmetrical setup would be a net benefit. Why couldn't you just use a asymmetrical front camber setup to the same effect? I know it is not unheard of, but why isn't this more common in all sports car racing?

There was a new Hoosier tire with only a R55 compound. Maybe this tire was slow to heat up on the cool race day. Some of the front runners, maybe winner, were on the old style Hoosier with a R45 compound. This could be why Varacins was not gapping the pack during the first few laps.

Brian

[problemchild]

Chris,
I think you are reading too much into the corner. It is a virtual straight line in a FV. Minimizing scrubb is not even an issue. I expect the shortest way around would be the quickest. I would focus any carousel sector analysis on gearing and hp.