a very stupid idea we should do

[mark defer]

okay, this is a VERY stupid idea, but i think it would be a hoot.
how about if next year we do at least one LONG race requiring pit stops for refueling?
say a 150 miler?
yeh you'd have to have the drivers exit the cars for refueling, but think of the other aspects of it.
you'd have to pace yourself. there would be strategy involved.
you'd have to determine the optimum time to refuel [if you screw up, you're out of fuel].
full course yellows would get interesting.
it would be great experience for the up and comers.
it would be unique in that no other small formula series would have it.
there are probably a dozen good reasons not to do it, but again, i think it would be a hoot.

mark d

[jim morgan]

Mark,
Wouldn't that require Rob to actually talk to someone on the radio?

[cooleyjb]

Most fun race in open wheel I've had was the Long Race that midwestern council does. 100 miles and with the exception of a couple random cars with huge fuel cells we all had to do a pit stop.

Great idea IMO

[Chris Livengood]

I like the idea. It reminds me of the RoboPong karting event.

Would tire changing be involved? It could drastically increase the cost of equipment needed to compete. Perhaps it should be limited to manual wrench and jack tire changes only? The newer brake setups i think would have a big advantage here, only due to longevity not really performance (as there isn't evidence to show that the new setups are faster). Would it be a demand that you do the race on more than one set of tires? How about specified fuel jugs (Scribner or similar plastic hose type jugs)? Crew safety equipment would need to change. Nomex, etc. Perhaps there is an engineering fix to the fire issue?

It could be a blast and if done correctly shouldn't increase the cost of competition beyond perhaps another set of tires and another 20 gallons of fuel.

[andyllc]

It would be a ton of fun. There are ways to minimize the cost. Mandate you have to run the same set of tires for the whole thing unless there is a flat, minimum time for your pit stop (ie five minutes) which will prevent teams from investing a lot of money in expensive fueling equipment.

[RussMcB]

In some IT endurance races, there is a manadatory 5 minute (minimum) pit stop. That removes a lot of the hectic, rushing around unsafe aspects. 5 minutes usually allows plenty of time for the driver to get out, fill with fuel, and change 4 tires.

[ric baribeault]

interesting idea. maybe a spec tire like hoosier 60 would go the distance. i'd do it....ric

[mark defer]

i would say that if it was done, limit the weekend to the one race. that way you could easily get by with the six tires normally alloted. well. i say easily if you MANAGE your tire wear. some of the guys [cole] at mid-o last weekend might have issues. but again, that's half the fun.
limit it to quick jacks and one electric tire gun.
the pit stops would probably be timed, say 5 minute minimums for refueling stops. this would reduce the possibilty of fuel spills..
the biggest obstacle that i've heard about doing this would be the extra personal the series would need. they would need radar guns in the pits, and they would need pit marshals to monitor pit stop times.
and yes jim, rob does talk on the radio, between smokes.


mark d

[SOseth]

In some IT endurance races, there is a manadatory 5 minute (minimum) pit stop. That removes a lot of the hectic, rushing around unsafe aspects. 5 minutes usually allows plenty of time for the driver to get out, fill with fuel, and change 4 tires.

It takes me 5 min. to get in the car!!!

SteveO

[HazelNut]

that's a fantastic idea!!!!!

[SMRacing]

I can't talk for the rest of the SMR team, but I will anyway.

We're in if this goes down.

-Tim

[KevinFirlein]

to quote Mike Rand when I made a suggestion in 07 for rewards weights... " your not only outside of the box, your outside the entire shipping department"

[RPAUL6]

to quote Mike Rand when I made a suggestion in 07 for rewards weights... " your not only outside of the box, your outside the entire shipping department"

This is where FedEx comes in. They'll get it done.

[Cole Morgan]

some of the guys [cole] at mid-o last weekend might have issues.

mark d

So that's what you were doing finishing 10th in Race 1, and 19th in Race 2, conserving your tires. Now I understand the difference in pace Mark. All you had to do was explain that you we're saving your Hoosier's and waiting for us guys at the front to run our tires off, then you were going to pounce. I like the strategy.

[mark defer]

So that's what you were doing finishing 10th in Race 1, and 19th in Race 2, conserving your tires. Now I understand the difference in pace Mark. All you had to do was explain that you we're saving your Hoosier's and waiting for us guys at the front to run our tires off, then you were going to pounce. I like the strategy.

the 19th in race 2 was due to brain fade clear and simple.
tell carly i miss her.
seriously though cole, don't you think a race like that would be a hoot?

mark

[Cole Morgan]

I do agree it would be fun. One way to cut costs would be to do a 3 hour race. Pair a "young gun" with a Masters Driver and they share a car. Splits the costs in half theoretically. Each guy does 1.5 hours.

If this does happen. I call McCrone, Nicholas, or Minor as my masters driver. Doesn't have to be in that order, but I get one of em.

[jim morgan]

Having been completely disrespected by a never again to be named younger driver. I offer my services as an older "Master Driver". While nowhere as quick as the DNTBN I have been successful in the same equipment with less equipment wear and competitive time with about 50% less tire wear.

[Cole Morgan]

Having been completely disrespected by a never again to be named younger driver. I offer my services as an older "Master Driver". While nowhere as quick as the DNTBN I have been successful in the same equipment with less equipment wear and competitive time with about 50% less tire wear.

If I'm not mistaken you went slower, and broke the engine of the car that set a new track record at Sebring this year. Just sayin'.

[jim morgan]

DNTBN enough said

[Redbone027]

I know I should keep my mouth shut, but....

I completely agree with Defer's idea of "something different" here !

• I've had lots of drivers ask me "how do you do that" when they hear whats involved in 200 miles of endurance in an FC car. I have completed many enduro's, & some of us "old guys" actually get faster after 5 or 8 laps while the youngsters fade.
• The 5 minute pitstop goes by VERY quickly when the driver exits & then re-enters the car. But I can confirm that it can be done SAFELY, 6.5 gallons of fuel added & engine cover replaced, and still have 45+seconds to spare
• I know for a fact that Hoosier Radials will make 200 miles even if driven hard (but not abused & flatspotted) on smooth surface tracks
• The additional Crew needed to successfully pull-off pitstops in this scenario probably concerns the Series, but in reality it can be done with the Driver, 1 Pit Crew person, and a "shared" fire-watch person (the firebottleperson can be split between multiple cars if organized correctly) or hire the local volunteer fire dept. & supply the BBQ that night !
• the strategy between fuel conservation, driver brain-fade, tire wear, etc. add HUGE fun to the event for EVERYONE (especially the Crew !)
• allowing a REAL RACE to develop over an hour or so is very different than sprinting (hoping not to crash) for a few short laps
• I have even heard of "full-field mandatory 10 minute pitstop" to verify the safety of Crew persons if there is a big concern
• Organization is key to pull this off.... but its certainly not difficult ! I have even started the Enduro with a "real" LeMans-style start (strapped in, engine off) with your Crew Chief running across the track before you launch when the cannon fires (might require a lower 1st gear, but so what ! we all change gearsets to mask poor driving anyway)
• maybe this could be a non-points event, or a "bonus round" that supplements the season "drop points race".... there's lots of ideas TO KEEP THE F2000 CLASS THE MOST INTERESTING & LARGEST FIELD of OPEN WHEEL racing in the USA ! I can just imagine the PRESS that Monte could generate (that would help the Series attract Sponsors - which may offset costs - which should filterdown ???) if these junior-level openwheel F2 cars had a standing start, long Enduro distance, huge fields, pitstops..... waitwait ~ we'll need something else : Finelli can get the Umbrella girls !
• For the young-guns looking to move up... how long is an F1 race ? what about the short INDY events ? I think the ALMS races run more than a few laps too ! For the Masters Class... it may help "get the feeling" of what we missed ??? Lets try 60-120 minutes -- Just as an experiment, maybe we should try it once & then review.... Maybe Cole has an interesting idea with "shared drivers" picked from a Lottery ???

• Speaking from experience : Watkins Glen is even MORE amazing the "last 30 laps" Mid Ohio flows like honey from 45 minutes onward Road Atlanta never gets old (even after 12 hours on a motorcycle) and VIR rewards consistency over 100 laps.

And besides - its not like we're doing something really scary like putting lights on the cars at night

Maybe we can have a "write-in" section on the Survey ?
Count me in !

P.S. - If there's a need to REALLY increase the car count, maybe its opened to FB cars too !

[azjc]

okay, this is a VERY stupid idea, but i think it would be a hoot.
how about if next year we do at least one LONG race requiring pit stops for refueling?
say a 150 miler?
yeh you'd have to have the drivers exit the cars for refueling, but think of the other aspects of it.
you'd have to pace yourself. there would be strategy involved.
you'd have to determine the optimum time to refuel [if you screw up, you're out of fuel].
full course yellows would get interesting.
it would be great experience for the up and comers.
it would be unique in that no other small formula series would have it.
there are probably a dozen good reasons not to do it, but again, i think it would be a hoot.

mark d

Come to sunny Arizona on Thanksgiving weekend, we already do it . Last year I could not make it, but for part of the race it was raining at one end of the track but not the other.... made for lots of fun !

[FONT=Calibri]Yellow Enduro (75 min) Mandatory - 5 minute Pit Stop - Saturday[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]* Driver changes are permitted – all drivers must be licensed and registered[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]* Tire changes or other repair work may be done in either hot pit or paddock. [/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]* Paddock speed is 5 mph - Drivers will be docked laps at ProAutoSports discretion if they enter or exit the paddock in an unsafe manner.[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]*Refueling must be done in the hot pit lane on the main strait and not in the paddock (we will have fire fighting equipment in the hot pit)[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]- Driver must be out of the car during any refueling (our Safety Director has insisted on this rule to insure the safety of the drivers during refueling).[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]- One person fueling and one with a fire bottle.[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]-Driver or crew person(s) can either be the fueler or the fire bottle holder[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]Regardless – all people doing fueling – in Nomex and wearing a Nomex hood and goggles or helmet.[/FONT]

Firebird main track is used, 1.6 mile, around 1 min lap times depending on your car.

[mark defer]

gee cole,
you managed to alienate your dad, both your uncles mark and bill, and probably master's champ lombardi all in one fell swoop. pretty swift lad.
actually, your suggestion probably wouldn't work too well. first of all you'd have to have an equal number of masters and youngsters. secondly, with your height, the seat and pedal adjustments would be a problem.
i personally think it would be more phone to do it solo anyway.
anyway, i'm really serious about this sounds like some of you feel the same way.

mark

[jim morgan]

Uncle Bill and I could compromise a seat as could you and lombardi sort of an real old guy real short guy kind of thing and be competitive versus a real young guy with a DNTBN who will never finish the race (lapping in endurance racing can be dangerous)

[Cole Morgan]

Mark,
I wasn't disrespecting Lombardi. I immediately ruled him out for the "height difference". Now that I think about it, McCrone is out too. Nicholas and Minor are still in.

I do see how you would be a respectable candidate for a co-driver. You had a very low spare parts bill this year. As long as you promise to not point anyone by on the straights I will accept your application as my co-driver, but I can't promise anything.

This would be fun as hell. Imagine if we did it combined with the USF2000 Series at Sebring in Jan. USF2000, F2000, Club Racers. I think we could get a big group of people.

Dad, any more threats of taking me out while lapping you will not be tolerated, besides, I don't think you have the reaction time to block/crash me at the speeds I will by passing you.

Someone get a mock entry list going.

Disrespectfully yours,
Cole

[John Caldwell]

Cole,

Please forward me a copy of Mark's application when you receive it. I believe that Mark and Bobby sharing a car would be in my best interest. This way those two probably won't hit each other on the track (unless one of them manages to run over the their co-driver in the pits)

Thanks,
John

[Cole Morgan]

Cole,

Please forward me a copy of Mark's application when you receive it. I believe that Mark and Bobby sharing a car would be in my best interest. This way those two probably won't hit each other on the track (unless one of them manages to run over the their co-driver in the pits)

Thanks,
John

I think everyone should be forced to stay behind the wall during Mark/Bobby pitstops until the car comes to a complete stop and the engine is shut off. It's safest for everyone.

[JByers]

This sounds like fun as long as I can find a place to mount an ash tray and cigarette lighter.

[DS63]

This idea was mentioned to the series a couple years ago and they (Rand) didn't seem to be keen on it, maybe Mike will chime in sometime to give us his thoughts...

[andyllc]

Another idea is to make it at the end of the year. Instead of a doubleheader, Saturday is the last race of the year then Sunday is the enduro non-points race.

[Michael Rand]

Hey, all this sounds great !
Really !
Ooops, I just came up with a roadblock.
Well, at least one, but this one may be a deal breaker.
And as always it starts with $.
Yup, cash, folding green.
60-90-120 minutes of track time comes at a huge premium regardless of the track or the club we partner with.
I'll never say never, but I will say maybe some year in some economy, how's that ?

[mark defer]

mike,
but if you cut the weekend back to just 1 big race instead of 2, wouldn't that help to make the numbers work? i mean you'd cut out both a qually and a race. that's an hour of track time you could devote to the remaining race. i'm assuming the track is charging for total time, or does the length individual sessions make a difference?

mark.

[Bumpdraft]

Mike, I hit another road block. Fire! Each crew mwmeber handling fuel will have to wear a full driver's uniform as required by the GCR. I for one refuse to fuel a hot car unless I'm reasonably protected. And the expense of this equipment for just one event is ridiculous. And low budget crews would have to add a guy just to man a fire extinguisher and maybe 1 or 2 tire changers. And the fuel inlets on the cells are from appropriate for fueling in the hot pits. Isn't why you don't want us to refuel in the pits during qualifying? So, I say the current series works well, although 1 qualifying and 3 races a weekend would be nice, just the way it is. Don't force the lower budget operations to miss a race weekend because our budgets can't handle everything required for one race weekend with pit stops for fuel. The one thing I might be in favor of is lengthening the races a little bit so we have to use more of the fuel tank capacity up.

[mark defer]

if you read the above posts, it would seem like these type events are happening all the time right now [unbeknownst to me] with no safety issues. i mean if guys at the regional level are doing this without burning any cars to the ground, i would hope that a "pro" team could manage to do the same.i would think that 2 crew guys should be able to handle refueling and tire changes. remember, with the 6 tire rule, you'd only be changing 2 tires at the most.

mark

[jim morgan]

Or old washed up drivers who aren't good enough to run could help multiple teams, or people who race probably know other racers who would lend suits not being used.

[B Reid]

I did a 24hrs of Lemons race this year and they manage the fueling without much drama. We had the driver that was jumping out add the fuel, the other driver holds the fire extinguisher. I think its a great idea.

[Bumpdraft]

Mark, you're correct. There are regional endurance series all around the track. In fact, I'm going to Watkins Glen this weekend to watch one. But remember, they have purchased the required safety equipment for the crew to do a series, not one race. Also, look at the locations of the fuel fillers compared to an F2k car. I worked on one of those endurance series crews about 4 years ago, and I used to work on a crew for Ultimate Motorsports in the old Firehawk Series in 1986 & 87. I've seen those pit fires when the the fillers weren't right next to the hot engine & exhaust like ours are. I saw Bill Mitchell's guys set 2 cars on fire in consecutive pit stops at the Nelson Ledges 24 Race, and they were factory backed pros. I'm just saying that one long distance race in a season does not justify the cost of safety equipment that a team wouldn't otherwise use during the rest of the season.

[Rick Kirchner]

Vince Tjmelland from Sabina Prep usually organizes our Formula Car enduro. This year it's next month in Vegas, which on that short twisty track should prove - exhausting...

From Vince: "66 minute race !!!.. Yes a full 66 minutes ! WE heard last year that everyone wanted more run time so we fixed it ! So all you formula guys now have to figure out how to stretch you mileage and work on your pit strategies So with a 66 minute race there will still be a mandator 10 minute pit stop.....WE have also added a new wrinkle to get even more participation... Two drivers can share one car , or two drivers can each drive their own car and do sort of a tag team relay !.. Now you don't have to find a second driver who fits your 6ft 7 inch race car lay out ( OH YA that is me !!!!)

you still have to have a 10 minute pit stop when you switch from car one to car two, but the comfort factor should be much higher for both drivers with your own car....

SABINA will again be providing trophies , champagne, and entry gifts....

bring your A game !"

I've run this a couple of times and I have another driver fuel for me. We remove the bodywork and throw a welding blanket over the back of the car. I've also extended the filler neck - not for the enduro but because the original arrangement just seemed nuts to me. Usually you can run the fuel down so that the second fill doesn't have to completely fill the tank, that reduces the spillage risk.

Back when Cal Club ran an enduro, Johnny Crean converted his FC VD to a CSR with bodywork (was a closed-wheel enduro) and had Victor Herfeldter rig up a dry break - but that's the only one I've seen (Johnny had a lot of $$$)

[Modo]

and F1 just eliminated fuel stops which can ruin a drivers hard work, next eliminate mandatory tire stops like yesteryear, although they are working out and could be a safety factor!! U blink, u lose!!