Road Atlanta FIT?

[stephen wilson]

That example seems to illustrate the whole point of the Honda engine. To eliminate the need for a $3-4000 refresh, to regain 3 H.P.

[Art Smith]

Stephen-

$300 cams were the imposed "parity" answer on competitors running 2-liter Pinto's. the example has nothing to do with "refreshes"!! the example has everything to do with "haste makes waste" and as a Ford Uprated Kent and Ford Cortina owner I don't want to be forced to spend mindless parity money....................

Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

[Daryl DeArman]

hopefully on track performance data is used by the CRB to adjust the SIR size and not imagineering

Art,

I am surprised that you would include yourself in the "on track performance data required" camp.

Lets just get the first approximation close before we start worrying about all the other stuff. Why worry about stuff that cumalitively might not equal .5 second a lap when we are off approximately 10% in HP numbers accross the entire curve?

I would think you believe in "junk in equals junk out" Way too many variables to draw an accurate conclusion from on track data. If you are just looking for a trend...that's easy and I can save a bunch of time...the fit needs more HP. Lets start with numbers in the 110-112 peak range....then, and maybe just then, the differences in Cg, frontal area, weight of rotating assembly, throttle response afforded by FI, etc...might make it close enough.

[ric baribeault]

knowing where my last kent engine from QS was, in hp, on the QS dyno, i would be looking for 112-113hp, on the same dyno for my honda. and that's blueprinted. i know exactly from the 40th, which national kents were better, i also know how much hp some of them make. i see 117hp mentioned. i would give huge odds that the QS dyno has never seen a legal FF engine produce those numbers legitimately. if that's a number we chase for our honda's, i think the class will suffer. i really don't feel on track comparison between separate drivers, in different cars, is in any way a reasonable tool for comparison. in fact trying to derive accurate data that way, from a scientific analysis point of view, is stupid. in order to keep balance in the universe, i'm joining mike in thread seclusion.

[Stan Clayton]

knowing where my last kent engine from QS was, in hp, on the QS dyno, i would be looking for 112-113hp, on the same dyno for my honda. and that's blueprinted. i know exactly from the 40th, which national kents were better, i also know how much hp some of them make. i see 117hp mentioned. i would give huge odds that the QS dyno has never seen a legal FF engine produce those numbers legitimately. if that's a number we chase for our honda's, i think the class will suffer. i really don't feel on track comparison between separate drivers, in different cars, is in any way a reasonable tool for comparison. in fact trying to derive accurate data that way, from a scientific analysis point of view, is stupid. in order to keep balance in the universe, i'm joining mike in thread seclusion.

Just a friendly reminder...

"The following two charts illustrate the concept and possibly point to the beginnings of an answer. The graphs are illustrative only and do not represent real engines, nor actual distributions!"

Please don't jump to any conclusions.

[stephen wilson]

Ah, sorry, I missed the switch to 2L Pinto's. I have heard of 1600 Kent owners discarding a nearly new cam to restore proper lift/lobe profiles.

[John Robinson II]

Ric,
Sandy has openly stated that his top "legal" kent engines are now in the 117+ range. I finally got some numbers out of Rollin and according to his dyno, my engine is north of what QS is putting out. And mine is no longer the top dog out of his shop.
John

[TimW]

Ric,
Sandy has openly stated that his top "legal" kent engines are now in the 117+ range. I finally got some numbers out of Rollin and according to his dyno, my engine is north of what QS is putting out. And mine is no longer the top dog out of his shop.
John

But what does Sandy's top legal one run on Rollin's dyno? You may be north, or you may be over/under corrected. Though it does go to show that since the same identical Honda made +2 on Loynings over what it ran on Sandy's consistently over the configurations run, with the easy assumption a Loyning is every bit as good as a QS, that 119+ is realistic from Arnie. The other question is: for how long? When I spoke to builders when I considered rebuilding my Kent the cost vs power vs hour life was the big tri-fecta as an owner you get to choose. Of course you can only have at most 2 of the 3...

John, what is the difference between "legal" and legal?

[Art Smith]

Tim-

I agree 100% with your primary point that it's highly unlikely that any two dyno facilities get the same answer testing the same engine. it's the Achilles heel of all the arguments for using only dyno numbers from an unspecified dyno to be "someplace relative" to an undefined target from the same or different dyno.

since the alternate engine dyno runs at Loyning's have never been published to my knowledge, I have no idea about those results compared to any other unpublished results. comparing unpublished results to unpublished results is risky business on a good day! excluding Loyning's (never done back-to-back there), I do know from testing of my Ford exhaust (sample of three) that there is a material variance between the dyno exhausts at National engine builders suppling RunOffs engines. based on that insight and the GCR required exhaust for the alternate engine it's my sense there's no correlation between dyno results for Ford engines and alternate engines at the same facility. the derived Ford dyno exhaust performance variance is easily a factor of 1.5+ time your reported 2HPc (c ?).

Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

[John Robinson II]

Tim,
Simple answer... legal is 100 % not going to find any speed secrets here, while "legal" is every item pushed to the limit with very little margin for error by the volunteer tech inspector. Like when they were going to disqualify all the top 7 in '07 for illegal intake openings. 8th place almost became national champ and he probably wasn't legal either, by the volunteer's interpertation.
John

now back to the great restrictor debate... how much quicker is the throttle response of a FI as opposed to a well tuned weber? Bueller?? Anyone??

[TimW]

Tim-
based on that insight and the GCR required exhaust for the alternate engine it's my sense there's no correlation between dyno results for Ford engines and alternate engines at the same facility. the derived Ford dyno exhaust performance variance is easily a factor of 1.5+ time your reported 2HPc (c ?).

Art

So, how does that warrant the Honda being brought in as a total outlier? We've all established that the Kent performance target is a range. The honda performance range should be much much smaller and should not be outside the kent range, neither above it or below it and arguably not even top shelf in that range. But right now its way below it, which is not really beneficial to anyone.

So if the Honda does finally land in the 114-115 range, hooray. But here's some news to those with Kents in the 108-112 range...the Honda doesn't antiquate these motors. Arnie's 119 motors antiquate those kents. If you only spent to get a 110 motor, don't bitch about the Honda at 115. That was your decision to not spend for a 119 kent and irrelevant to any Honda engine. Lets not cut everyone off at the knees to make things 'equal.' I really think its a bad idea to cut everyone off at the knees.

But again, there is not enough data yet. The Road Atlanta data while interesting is not enough to base the decision on. The big question mark of what a legally blueprinted Honda will make will be answered soon enough. A field of 5-6 Hondas with talented drivers will be up against the best in Kents at the sprints in less than 3 months time. In my opinion once we have those experiences is when there will be enough data to really start whinging if there is not movement toward the as close as equality as feasible was communicated as the intention of the board in October. Until then, the only facts based opinion to be drawn is that the CRB took a very conservative approach which will make for a lot of wasted money between now and after the Sprints.

[TimW]

now back to the great restrictor debate... how much quicker is the throttle response of a FI as opposed to a well tuned weber? Bueller?? Anyone??

I'm not exactly sure if a dyno can support a step throttle input at a fixed load or not, but that would seem the best way to test it...and see the rate of RPM increase as well as the rate of the rate of rpm increase...

I don't think that is a normal test scenario for a kent...the pulls I've witnessed is a more lower rate of throttle application to get the RPM/sec rate consistent.

[VehDyn]

So if the Honda does finally land in the 114-115 range, hooray. But here's some news to those with Kents in the 108-112 range...the Honda doesn't antiquate these motors. Arnie's 119 motors antiquate those kents. If you only spent to get a 110 motor, don't bitch about the Honda at 115. That was your decision to not spend for a 119 kent and irrelevant to any Honda engine. Lets not cut everyone off at the knees to make things 'equal.' I really think its a bad idea to cut everyone off at the knees.

As an outsider watching this unfold and reading every thread, this about sums it up. Not being an expert in the Kent, I assume that those that don't have the big HP motors make a concious choice not to pay the outrageous sums (assuming they are outrageous from posts) to attain the highest of HP. Or maybe they just dont want to pay the price of longevity for that HP. Either way, they make a concious decision to show up with their motor knowing that someone else will/may show up with a top motor and have an advantage. It is accepted. Why is it different if its a Ford or a Honda? Why do people want the blueprinted Honda to be at the low end or the average of all Kent motors as was mentioned before?

If its the case that you can't just buy the HP and some motors just can't reach the top level due to the fact you need a "special" block or "special" head to hit the numbers, it would seem competitors would want the Honda to be reasonably competitive. If your lump doesn't have a chance of meeting the numbers you believe are necessary to be competitive and you will need to find and buy one of those special motors, it would seem like having another option (the Honda) would be wecomed.

[M.Sauce]

I don't spend more than 3500.00 for a rebuild on my Kent.I run it all year and can run in the top 5 at the Runoffs.I am an old fat guy that had to build his own car to get anywhere near the minimum weight and I am still 42 lbs over at the end of the race.My budget for the year is not that big either.All this talk about special Kent engines that make big numbers I wish I could get one.My engine builder does a good job at a reasonable price(Curtis Farley) and I am as competitive as I should be all things considered.You know I have won a few Nationals too.Anybody that thinks they cannot be competitive with the Fit engine without having equal or almost equal HP is not taking into account the most important issue ,driving the car.I have been giving away at least 3-5 HP with the weight since I have been racing FF.If I had thought then I would not be competitive because someone had 3-4 HP more than I did I would not have ever started racing.The people who want the Honda motor in their car,just do it and see how competitive you are but right now there is not enough data to see what needs to be done.When there is more data if the Honda needs a larger restrictor I am sure the CRB will give one.I am also sure once JR gets his Fit installed we will see some more potential for the Honda.