Great news! I was contacted by HPD....they are ready to ship the DB-1 kits. Soon, very soon, the sound of little Honda's will be coming to a track near you!
Follow up....my DB-1 kit is in the works to ship Friday the 19th.
The DB-1 "Fit Kit" is shipping?
Great news! I was contacted by HPD....they are ready to ship the DB-1 kits. Soon, very soon, the sound of little Honda's will be coming to a track near you!
Follow up....my DB-1 kit is in the works to ship Friday the 19th.
Last edited by gtomlinson; 02.18.10 at 5:28 PM.
Fit engine and Engine Conversion Kit arrives!
Just finished unpacking the new Honda Fit engine and Engine Conversion Kit. Everything was very well packaged and documented. The shipping company did a great job of contacting me and arranging lift gate delivery to my home shop.
The HPD engine conversion parts appear first rate and well turned out. The engine looks to be directly from Japan and very complete. It came with the OE intake, oil pan, assorted wiring, catalytic converter, several shields and more attached to it. I assume this engine was assembled and ready to go into the FIT car. The spare OE parts will most likely end up on ebay to further fund the race efforts.
A detailed and carefully prepared assembly manual was included providing step by step instuctions with very detailed pictures in book and CD format.
Pretty impressed so far with the quality of handling, parts and materials. The chassis conversion kit is still forthcoming....
Originally Posted by gtomlinson
Maximizes profits - minimizes liability.
Would yo be kind enough to weigh everything going on to the car? I have called HPD asking for the deltas in mass and cg position given a typical db1, but their engineers 'do not yet have that data'. Somehow I doubt that.
I'll see how it goes na94....just remember I do this amateur racing stuff for fun. If the the damn thing starts every time I get in the car, I'll be tickled pink. In regards to it's center of mass and relationship to the alignment of the stars, that holds no great interest to me (please, no insult intended). I bought the Honda package to make my racing experience more enjoyable by increasing my time on the track and reduce my time in the shop (and the money I toss in the wind).
My current goal is solid reliability...something that's increasingly hard to find in cheap amateur race cars, especially formula cars. Having a reliable car that's more likely to be race ready will be a welcome commodity with the current state of economic stess. I'm betting on Honda's enormous race engineering background toward this goal.
The recent news that the SCCA BOD is reducing the restrictor plate to 27.5mm was actually good news to me. It means the motor will be even less stressed and more likely to be reliable. How can that be a bad thing for a sports hobbyist trying to maintain a responsible budget....
The recent news that the SCCA BOD is reducing the restrictor plate to 27.5mm was actually good news to me. It means the motor will be even less stressed and more likely to be reliable. How can that be a bad thing for a sports hobbyist trying to maintain a responsible budget....[/quote]
I think it really only affects the heavy hitters that planned on running up front with the new lump.......................... If it was a direct drop in replacement I might have been interested in a transplant.
It affects everyone who switches - they will be horribly uncompetitive until the restrictor diameter is changed, whenever that may be.
The engine won't be any more reliable than it would have been with the larger restrictor.
Well I guess you know what I mean then Richard.........................If only everybody was as accepting and looking for the same things as Glen.........
There will be no reliability gains using a smaller restrictor, as the Fit was designed to run at 117 hp all day in a street car, where the Kent was designed to run at 45hp in a tractor. The reliability issues are in the engines tweaked to more than double their original intended purpose.
The Fit will run indefinitely at 117 hp, restrictor plate or not.
This CRB decision is exactly the same thing that screwed up the Zetec infusion into FC--and that took 3 years for them to finally get it right! That's after saying that the power would be equalized after ONE season. And the Zetec wasn't nearly as far off as this deficit they are killing the Fit with.
I hope one of the Pro F2000 series recognizes that there are similar opportunities for FF now for them just like there were 3-4 years ago with the Zetec ignorance.
I think you need to check your facts. Try 1959 Ford Anglia. 997cc with 39bhp.
'Nuff said.
That is what I can not understand why people bitch and moan about the Kent. It has seen a 307% increase in hp with a design that is 51 years old.
Do you think the FIT will even see 307% improvement?
That is the essence of the problem with the Kent...
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'Stay Hungry'
JK 1964-1996 #25
Probably because the result of the 307% increase has been a decrease in reliability and an increase in cost.
There is not a single good thing about that 307% increase.
No, that's the point.Do you think the FIT will even see 307% improvement?
My point exactly. Would it not been a lot less head ache and cost if a restrictor plate was added to the Kent to increase reliability?
Wait. What?
Your solution to the problems of insane costs, poor supply, durability and longevity issues of the long-in-the-tooth Kent is to put restrictor plates on existing Kent engines to increase their reliability?
Sure, bringing them all back down to about 39 bhp ought to do the trick.
What?
Get a rope boys
improving reliability........!
the truth of the matter is GCR compliant Uprated 1600 Kent reliability and durability are both UP and IMPROVING because of the combination of approved aftermarket replacement parts and better available technology. GCR compliant aftermarket rocker stands, rocker shafts, and forged pistons have had a profound positive impact on Kent cost of ownership. significantly better lubricants and affordable aluminum radiator technology have also contributed materially to improved Kent availability. when some of the poor quality aftermarket parts are completely flushed from the population, I would not be surprised to see more reported two and three year rebuild intervals on non-RunOffs Uprated 1600 Kent engines that get reasonable valve maintanence AND reliable electronic rev limiters set below 7000rpm. missed shifts and burnt valves aren't the engine's fault! based on my small sampe of engine data, it's also my sense improved reliability and durability can also be expected by those pushing for more power from their Uprated 1600 Kent's as long as the engine isn't treated like a lawn mower in the morning.................
building one or two race grenades is expensive in all classes, even those based on junkyard stock engines!
Art
artesmith@earthlink.net
Art,
What's your point?
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you.
Tim-
the point is: as simple AND reliable a racing engine as the Ford Uprated 1600 Kent is, it is NOT immune to driver, crew chief, owner, and/or engine builder abuse. abuse can be "administered" in many ways. running an engine without oil is clearly abuse and unfortunately takes many forms in racing engines with solid lifter cams. street oils (API approved) without adequate ZDDP, oil from fly-by-night suppliers, dry starts, cold oil, no or inadequate oil pressure, an oil filter from the corner convenience store, ...... never, infrequently, or incorrectly adjusting the valve lash on racing engines with solid lifter cams is abuse. never, infrequently, or incorrectly adjusting a racing engine's Weber(s) jetting is abuse. never, infrequently, or incorrectly adjusting a racing engine's ignition timing is abuse. operating a racing engine without cooling water or with excessive cooling water temperature is abuse. operating a racing engine above it's recommended redline is abuse. operating a racing engine without a rev limiter can be abusive depending on driver shifting skill. operating a racing engine without protection to preclude flywheel impacts with the racing surface is well beyond abusive in my book. and finally while not strickly abuse, it's my opinion that not installing ARP rod bolts per the manufacture's installation instructions or a Ford crankshaft race prepared by someone with years of experience with Ford Cortina's and Ford Uprated 1600 Kents used for road racing is asking for expensive problems.
most racing engines, Ford Uprated 1600 Kents included, need better care than afforded the typical family's lawn mower which is expected to start cold every saturday morning and gets serviced/oil changed every five years without regard to need.
Art
artesmith@earthlink.net
FIT's and KENTS will both fail without oil or water, I kinda get that. Are you suggesting that a well prepared Kent will last as long as long as a non-blueprinted FIT?
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you.
Most of what you are calling abuse when failed to be done is actually 'maintenance.' There is a reason my Dad does not ask to teach me how to tune up his Pontiac Tempest 6 cylinder with 3 speed on the column every 3000 miles anymore...engines are maintenance free now, including even many racing engines. The Indy car engines I worked on 15 years ago had less FWF than a kent and they are even more commodity now. Why are we so beholden to a bygone era when we can have much more equally prepared power plant that has a longer MTBO (i.e. replacement) for less money and with a smaller FWF? Racing is not an investment; the cars & engines are appliances that are one aspect we use to achieve our goals in racing.
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'Stay Hungry'
JK 1964-1996 #25
Tim-
it remains to be seen how reliable the alternate engine will be in the real competitive road racing environment in the hands of normal competitors. for the sake of the class and competitors like yourself that have purchased alternate engine(s) I'm hoping it does better than 1-liter bike engines did on their introduction........................
Art
artesmith@earthlink.net
The 1 liter bike motors did fine as long as the engines had the fundamentals taken care of. They were exactly what they were promised to be: reliable, cheap, low maintenance engines. No motor is going to work when it doesn't have oil, especially not at 12k rpms. The reliability problems were greatly exaggerated.
At some point a few weekends ago while Brandon was showing me how to clean emulsion tubes, I started to get a little jealous of his engine that cranks every time, doesn't require a battery charger or jump battery, costs next to nothing, and is one of the most trouble free parts of the car. We did decide to check the valves after 1000 miles or so. They were fine and we won't be messing with that again. We finally had to put a new one in at Sebring, but only because the track surface was so bad that all the teeth left 4th gear. The engine should be ok with a new 4th gear in it. Other cars were having transmission problems as well.
Engineering by analogy is more aptly done against the Zetec or the Duratec than bike motor, IMO. But engineering by analogy is not really engineering. Good try though.
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'Stay Hungry'
JK 1964-1996 #25
Bravo, Tim.
Hate to pop your cherry
BUT wrong, that engine is its daddy, the crossflow engine came out a tad later 67/68, then was indroduced as the bowel in piston design a little later in 68/69, (note quite sure), the first cross flow heads were chambered and not very good, infact you can get chambered heads from a lot of tuners in the UK (Burton, I think is one) and they produce 180/190 Hp and stay together.
Roger
Those 190 HP engines have entirely different build specifications, not limited to the crankshafts, flywheels weights, etc. that we are. I'm confident that the Honda won't have a crankshaft that's as prone to failure as the Kent. Time will tell.
Art, the Honda is not being used in a vehicle that is 2+ times the weight of its original intended purpose.
So who is going to have the first Honda powered car at a National? When and where?
Crossle 32F, Piper DF5 Honda
Someone who just spent a bunch of money converting a car and who feels like going to a race that they won't be competitive at or as fast as they were with their old motor.
John-
it's true there were some 1-liter motorcycle clutch and transmission problems early on that could be directly related to vehicle weight. as an interested observer not directly involved in either DSR, CSR, or FB, it's my sense the far more wide spread engine failures were related to the 1-liter motorcycle engine's lubrication system and/or too much air entrapment in the oil. much ta-do has been made by some about endurance testing of modern engines on dynometers and in vehicles on street vehicle test tracks. real world on track road racing experience with the 1-liter motorcycle engines has shown (conclusively in my mind) that passing modern endurance street vehicle testing with flying colors is not a guarantee of future reliability in a competitive 4-wheel vehicle road racing environment.
engineers and even engineering managers that know there business/product will tell you that product reliability is linked directly to environment
Art
artesmith@earthlink.net
That's not an apples to apples comparison, the problem is converting a MOTORCYCLE engine to CAR usage. Modern "crotch rockets" will take high RPM abuse all day, but when you subject them to lateral forces they were never designed for, of course you'll have problems. Their low profile sumps need modifications, or a dry-sump conversion to compensate for the fact that they no longer lean while cornering.
Not to mention the Zetec, Duratec & Fit all have race application designed dry sump systems from the outset...many of the bike engines used stock lubrication designs...
I'm not saying the Fit won't perhaps have teething problems, but as Honda has very patiently answered my myriad of questions they have applied a higher level of engineering and testing than most have done to adapt an engine to motorpsorts use.
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'Stay Hungry'
JK 1964-1996 #25
Your sense is wrong. The oil system is fine unless you uncover the oil pickup or run the oil to 400 degrees.
The problems with FB engines have been greatly overstated, but the problems that have existed were because there was no reliable dry sump sytem available and people needed to realize that the engines need an oil cooler as big as the water radiator.
Trying to relate the FB/DSR engine problems in any way to the Fit is disingenuous at best and shows a real lack of understanding. The Fit is coming with a purpose built dry sump system anyways, so I don't know why you would even try.
Not nearly as much has been made of modern engine testing as has been made of modern engineering and manufacturing. It's not much of a stretch that 40 years and billions of dollars have improved the state of engine design and manufacturing. The FB engines along with the zetec do help prove that. If people keep good oil temps and pressures and good water temps, we don't know how long an FB engine will last since no one seems to have worn out an engine yet.
oil pressure
exactly, all our gsxr failures where due to loss of oil, insufficiant pressure. Go Team Canada!
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