Swift 008 Performance
It seems from reading the posts on Apexspeed a lot of people do not feel the 008 is a competative car. It would appear the RT-41 is viewed as superior however a few years ago the 008 was winning the runoffs beating the Ralts. Why is the 008 no longer viewed as a car that can beat the RT-41 and what is the differance between the 008 and the 014? Can a 008 be updated to become a 014?
The only 008 that ever won the Runoffs was in '05 when Arnie Loyning's 008-based CSR won that class' title. No 008 ever won the FA title.Originally Posted by cbr900rr
The 008 was never viewed as better than an RT-41. After the tub went back through the factory to be stiffened it was potentially about as good as an RT-41, but it has higher drag at equal df, so is not generally considered as good.Why is the 008 no longer viewed as a car that can beat the RT-41 and what is the differance between the 008 and the 014?
No. A 008 can be updated to look like an 014, and share its aero, but the 014 has many detail improvements that make it inherently better than an upgraded 008.Can a 008 be updated to become a 014?
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
Hi Stan,
Sorry about that I thought a 008 won the year after Rennie won. Do you think with equal drivers the 014 is a better car then the RT-41? There are some pretty good deals on RT-41's right now. I will probably end up in FC or FB but it is fun to think about.
Scott
Bob Stallings won in an 014 the year after Rennie.
I think the 014 and the RT-41 are very evenly matched under the present rule set.
Cheers! Stan
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
Deals????
Scott,
Just curious........excluding Bill Gillespie's car, where have you seen any "good" deals on RT-41's?
Rick
I believe Bernie Sunier was selling his RT-41 at one time for a good price. Also Charlie Monk earlier this year.
Charlie Warner
fatto gatto racing
'Cause there's bugger-all down here on earth!
Bernie's 41 is nice but his site has no cars listed in his classified section.
http://www.sunier.com/
If one were interested a phone call might be in order.
Charlie Warner
fatto gatto racing
'Cause there's bugger-all down here on earth!
Rick,
The race car sales site has an RT-41 up in Canada I saw. I guess a lot was not the right word to use maybe 2 or 3 would have been better.
Scott
008 Performance
Bernie Sunier raced a Swift DB4 for years and eventually replaced it with a 008. I don't think he was any faster in the 8, than he had been in the DB4. He replaced the 8 with his current RT-41 and was MUCH faster. A pretty good car to car comparison, same driver, same level of prep, same tracks.
Jim Gustafson
Visual Communications
I have a both 008 and an 014. My 2cents is that it depends on what you want to do. The 008 is a great way to get into FA for $30ishK. It might be a second or two (depending on track) slower but for the money I don't know of another way to get a pretty reasonable FA car for cheap. I'm not aware of any 41's priced in that arena. Honestly the 2 (008 vs.014) cars feel pretty similar. The gearbox is, in my opinion, the biggest and most noticable upgrade of the 014. I destoyed an 008 box on my first test weekend trying to get the car to go fast. The 014 box is much nicer. But it comes with a much higher price tag. If I didn't get such a good deal on my 014 I would still be very happy with my 008 (which is for sale with a brand new gear box!).
Last edited by campbell53; 12.10.09 at 6:04 PM.
Ohhh......you're THAT Scott.
Be sure to try one on for size before buying. IIRC, you couldn't cram your size 15-wides into my Ralt's foot well.
Stan
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
There are no deals !
The only way to get a deal is if you find an Atlantic with a fresh motor and gearbox at
a low price.
BEWARE.
I have seen too many people buy used cars at a high price with low miles on engines and gearboxes and never get passed a practice session.
The old saying: You either pay now or you will pay later.
Jason,
my RT41 is for sale and just put in a fresh Loyning's, its not listed,I did not finish the
inventory of all the spares,etc.I am waiting until after the holidays.
If anyone would like some info on the car,you can PM me or call me at
314 740-3840.
Bernie Sunier
Scott,
Not sure where you are but I think I was there one year ago. It really all boils down to money. Do you have a 08 budget or a 14 budget ?
I had several talks with Mirl and the fastest guys will tell you 1-2 seconds is the difference between the cars. There is a good interview you can find from a number of years back when the pro drivers were asked about the new car vz old. They indicated it was not that big of a deal. The reality of it is without being insulting is how fast are you ? not the car. If you cant make the 08 go fast the extra 25-45k wont make you much better. I am spending the savings on track time.
Bernie's' advise is very good. If you have never inspected an Atlantic hire someone to help you. The "300" mile motor that came with my 08 will be in a crate soon for a rebuild....dont' get me started.
08s are good regional cars, safer then FC/FE/FB. You can run HSR as well and if you are quick and get it sorted out you can still have a reasonably good time racing in nationals.
I know of several good 08s for sale none are located in Arizona...surprise. If you are interested PM me for info.
Ed
"The visibility at the best of times is liable to be a bit hazy due to clouds of ignorance"... Carroll Smith
Manuals?
What type of manuals (if any) did Swift publish for the 008? Was there an aero manual?
Swift provided basic set up sheets for road and oval, toe, caster,camber ride height, the usual. Literature also included xyz axis points to measure and set up the car, the aero manual was for the 14.
"The visibility at the best of times is liable to be a bit hazy due to clouds of ignorance"... Carroll Smith
Interesting thread. The 008's are now at my price level, and if I ever decide to sell my Citation FB, then this would be the next step. Ever since I sat in and looked over a DB4 for a potential purchase a few years ago, I've wanted one.
I recall reading a Swift technical article on the web that stated one of the main reasons the 014 was so much stiffer than the 008 had to do with the attachment method of the engine/transaxle to the tub. Maybe there's a way to update...
Yes it is a trunnion issue, The attachment point are different between the 2. I will be looking at beefing up the trunnions during motor r&r the problem is on exhaust side where header goes inside trunnion.
The reality is the cars were good enough for the pros and I'm no Joey Hand so its a damn well good enough club car. If one wants to be contesting the runoffs and running with the big shots up front at every national yes you will need a 14 or 41 or 16 ??? if you can drive like Wilcox a DB4 will work too. My memory may not be the best but are there any SCCA FA club drivers that have been plucked from the ranks and given a ride in a prominent series ?
Bench racing heats up in the winter. I look at it from the perspective of what I am trying to do. There is always a better car thats for sure. My bet is that when the 16s infiltrate the ranks and all the dust settles the same rhetoric will be going on comparing the 16 to a 14.
"The visibility at the best of times is liable to be a bit hazy due to clouds of ignorance"... Carroll Smith
I know this has been covered in past threads, but the trunnions are not the only stiffness issue. According to Swift, the 014 bare tub has 45% greater torsional stiffness than the 008 bare tub. With trunnions, the 014 is 32% stiffer than the 008. These are significant differences, although it will not really matter unless the car is being driven to its limits.
I do generally agree with Ed's comments, however. At current price levels, a 008 could be pretty good bang for your buck, and I have been tempted more than once to take a look at one. In my opinion, the carbon tub is significantly safer than any tube-frame construction. My primary concern about a 008 would be gearbox costs and reliability.
I don't know Rob......I would think $35K engines vs. $5K engines plus significant transmission and gears costs for 2 to 4 seconds per lap would get old fast.....
If anyone is paying $35K for Toyota motors, I have a couple to sell.
4ag
atlantic motors are priced between $6k-$9k but if you want to spend $35k I have two for sale.
Ivin,
I don't know who you've been talking to, but my last two Toyota 4AGE rebuilds cost around $6K. And I purchased a good, complete used engine last year for around $8K.
Is FA more expensive than FB???? Probably......but the cost difference may not be nearly as great as you imagine. For the price of a brand new FB with spares, you could buy a nice Swift 008 and have enough money left over for your first two engine rebuilds.
The only way to buy one of these motors is fresh off the dyno, as Bernie suggested. A motor is used after the first start and I've seen several ruined on that first start. You get what you pay for.
Charlie Warner
fatto gatto racing
'Cause there's bugger-all down here on earth!
If anyone is paying $35K for Toyota motors, I have a couple to sell.
I am sorry guys; I thought rebuilds were $12 to 15K. Thanks for setting me straight.
Rebuilds can easily exceed these numbers depending on what you are beginning with. A motor with 500 miles on it but with all reasonably fresh parts might only need $8k or so. However, a motor with a worn/warped head, used up valves, soft springs, etc. can exceed $15k. You also have to remember we have rebuilt motors then we have motors which have been rebuilt by the pros: Jennings, Loyning, Hasselgren, Reilly, Wenz (soon to be in Savannah, Ga. BTW), Cornelison, Knapp, Slade, etc. Labor alone will be north of $5k.
Yes, it is more expensive (on the surface) to use one of the best, but they stand behind their work. One of the biggest problems most people have with them is that they normally do not use parts that many of us wish they would. A head might be a bit thinner or more pourous than the builder likes so he requires that it be replaced. We don't like it, especially since we just got the motor and "it only had 300 miles on it after rebuild." So, that adds another $6k+ fror the latest and greatest. BTW, in my experience most builders will do their utmost to source replacement parts at a discount which you will not get as a backyard engine builder. Another small reason to use the pros.
You have to remember that these motors wear out fairly rapidly. Where do you think the worn out parts go?
Buying $6k-$9k motors and expecting to get a full season out of them is wishfull thinking. Might it happen? Sure, you can get lucky. On the other hand, pay your costs up front from the pros, follow their installation and care-and-feeding instructions, and enjoy the sleep of the innocent, knowing you have a good motor that should last according to your plans. You can discuss these things with the builders and they can build a motor to do what you want. You want a 1200 mile BDA? It can be done. Want a hand grenade? No problems, my friend.
For those not old enough to remember the FRAM commercials . . . . Pay me now or pay me later.
Last edited by Charles Warner; 12.13.09 at 2:34 PM.
Charlie Warner
fatto gatto racing
'Cause there's bugger-all down here on earth!
You can also include Elite to the engine builders list, Steve does stand behind his work.
RE the 08 - what were the performance upgrades to the braking system when the 014 was introduced?
Thanks for pointing out the ommission. Steve is indeed one of the best.
Charlie Warner
fatto gatto racing
'Cause there's bugger-all down here on earth!
Good question. I just reviewed the Swift SAE paper regarding 014 design, and the brakes are not specifically mentioned. They did include a drawing which implied that the 014 brakes were "new content" that could be retrofitted to a 008.
From memory, the 008 brakes were retained on the 014. The hubs were different, though and the 014's were frequently retrofitted to the 008.
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
rotors and hats are the brake change from 8 to 14, I am fairly sure the caliper is the same
"The visibility at the best of times is liable to be a bit hazy due to clouds of ignorance"... Carroll Smith
Cost? I paid $1200 for a 450 mile used 06 Yamaha engine for my FB. I guess I got lucky with a good one because it lasted all last season, and I expect to run it again next season.
How about a Hayabusa or big Kawi in a Swift 008? Tha would keep costs down significantly and remove the weaker 008 gearbox. I'll have a re-look at the FA engine rules.
Now you're talking!
Rob - I know your are very handy and can easily swap ancillaries to a new engine - but are you planning on "stockpiling" a few of the same generation of R1 engine so you can just bolt in a replacement? What year R1's are the same?
I think one of the weaknesses of the FB class is the rapid evolution of the Japanese superbike engines - FA and FC do not have to worry about new engine specs every 2 to 3 years.
That would drive me to ....
That's why I am going to accumulate a few spare engines, so i can just bolt in.That would drive me to ....
At $3000 for brand new and $1500 to $2500 for less-than-1000 street mile used, the engines are very reasonable.
Even my TM 125cc moto shifter kart engine cost $3K in 1998.....
The big superbike motors 1400cc are around 200hp and 110ft/lb or so depending on brand. I don't think this will get it done in an Atlantic.
If one wants to start building superbike motors from the base motor to get the numbers correct you will be in Hasselgren land with costs and the reliability is still going to be an issue. I ran superbikes for 10 years and as these motors have gotten larger and more intricate the cost to build them has sky rocketed. Then you have to fit it into an Atlantic.
You may as well work on another 4 cylinder car engine and upon successful fitment sell the parts to the rest of us...think Honda here....
I highly doubt we will ever hear Mirl, Kris or the Grants ask for someone to pass the chain lube while working on a FA
"The visibility at the best of times is liable to be a bit hazy due to clouds of ignorance"... Carroll Smith
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