Letter to SCCA Enterprises

[jimkelly]

To All FE Car Owners/Drivers

A letter has been sent to SCCA Enterprises concerning ongoing problems. The contex is to long to post. If you are interested in your class future this could be of interest to you.

If you e-mail me your e-mail address I will forward you a copy of this document. My e-mail address is: sean32@sbcglobal.net This letter is now posted by Keith Carter. THANKS Keith

Jim Kelly

[Zambo]

Awww, come on now. If it is of earth-shattering importance, you could share that with us. Come on now. We are good people. Cut and paste a little. I'm sure that Keith wouldn't mind a lengthy diatribe. Heck, look at the FF postings on the HPD proposal.

[jimkelly]

Sir:

In keeping with the intent and basic rules of APEXSPEED the contents of this communication will anger some, and as such I felt it best not to push the ruls
imposed by APEXSPEED.

Thanks,

jim
k.

[formulasuper]

Sir:

In keeping with the intent and basic rules of APEXSPEED the contents of this communication will anger some, and as such I felt it best not to push the ruls
imposed by APEXSPEED.

Thanks,

jim
k.

Why don't you send it to Doug as an email & let him decide?

[jimkelly]

Do you have his E-Mail address?

Thanks

[Keith Carter]

You can send it to keith (at) apexspeed (dot) com and also doug (at) apexspeed (dot) com

[Lee Shumosic]

I asked for a copy.......

[Erik Skirmants]

Dear Jim,

I am in receipt of the letter; thank you for taking the time to express your concerns and opinions. I read it over my morning coffee and I think that everyone should read it.

Sincerely,
Erik Skirmants
SCCA Enterprises

[Keith Carter]

I received the letter and it's perfectly fine for Jim to post his opinions.

[Keith Carter]

Here is the letter from Jim

[smcqueen]

Jeezz! I don't want to be like California because of their messed up sound rules (as well as many other things). Front sway bars will make the cars more equal, because the messed up setup required by the current imbalance breeds inequality. If you run 9 heat cycles on tires, you damn sure won't have a mid corner push. It is not possible to build a legal and safe race car for under 50k (unless you have it built in China). If Enterprise does not make money, there will be no Enterprise. Not good.

I should not drink and type.

scott

[Stan Clayton]

I should not drink and type.

Words to live by, Scott...

[jimkelly]

Scott:

Please explain what you mean if I get 9 cycles on our tires we won't get mid corner push

Jim

[rickb99]

Just a curiousity question.

Are the FE engines really loud?

On our Pinto FC we run an 18" glass pack SuperTrapp with ZERO baffles so it's straight through. Always hit sound at 92 to 93 dB with a local limit of 103 dB. Would be nice to make the car louder with a shorter one

Why are you guys having muffler problems? "sounds' really nuts

[Frank Williamson]

I don't believe this "sound" problem is an FE problem, it is a "Laguna Seca" problem. Cars that don't seem loud exceed the dB level, and some cars that just scream don't. Some strange acoustics at that place.
Between the sound restrictions, the gravel traps(every session BF all) and the higher entry fees, it wouldn't bother me if SFR dumped Laguna and ran all it's races at Sears and Thunderhill. From talking to some others, I am not the only one who feels that way.

[jimkelly]

I have questiond the proper calibration of our sound equipment. The pickup point is placed where we are at near max. RPM. I don't really know the answer to solve this except be allowed to have a regional only rule and have the rest of the country stay as it is. We have faught this for six years.

I would really like to see all of us under the same GCR rule, with one unit the same or allow us to choose our own unit to use.

[Marshall Mauney]

I would really like to see all of us under the same GCR rule, with one unit the same or allow us to choose our own unit to use.

Jim,

The problem with allowing us to choose our own muffler is that it will seriously impact the power output of the engine. If this becomes a "free" item, the guys with the most money available to develop muffler designs and use track time to test them will be at the front, and the rest of us will be stuck. Yes, it is true that a muffler by itself only costs $2-300. Figuring out which muffler will be the fastest within the rules and spending the time to tune for it will cost thousands, however, and I don't think that's what anyone really wants in a spec class.

I guess I would ask, as well, what is the problem with using a turn-down or a very mild secondary muffler on the end of the existing pipe on tracks where there are issues? We've heard of the serious trouble at Laguna, but outside of the one issue at RA I haven't heard of anyone else having sound problems. We had even more cars at the Sprints - was anyone even warned at that event?

In a similar manner, I agree with Scott on the front swaybar. Through this year of racing, I have heard numerous other drivers complain about the front being too stiff. Though I can't speak for anyone else, I know how my car is set up to try to get somewhere close to a balance; it's not pretty, and I would never have gone this far towards a "loose" setup in any other car I've driven. Does it need to be cockpit-adjustable? Maybe not, but a softer bar can do nothing but make the car easier to tune and more driveable.

Now, I agree with some of your other points re: cost (though I would challenge you to look at the Euro/$ conversion rate over the past 7 years and re-work your numbers). I would also like to see a published price list so that we know what we're getting into for various consumables. I would point out, though, that requiring all of us to buy a new muffler to comply with Laguna's issue would only make the cost issue worse for most of us.

[mousecatcher]

I don't believe this "sound" problem is an FE problem, it is a "Laguna Seca" problem. Cars that don't seem loud exceed the dB level, and some cars that just scream don't. Some strange acoustics at that place.
Between the sound restrictions, the gravel traps(every session BF all) and the higher entry fees, it wouldn't bother me if SFR dumped Laguna and ran all it's races at Sears and Thunderhill. From talking to some others, I am not the only one who feels that way.

Agree, it's a Laguna Seca problem. That said, I've never been over the sound limit there.

It's fun to state your opinion of dropping Laguna as having some kind of consensus, but if you did a wide poll I'm sure you'd find the answer to be different. I would certainly mind if SFR dumped Laguna.

[mousecatcher]

Not to be too harsh, and really this is meant with all respect, but I found the letter to be just a personal rant and not in the best interest of the FE class. IMHO and limited experience with Erik, I'd say he's done quite an amazing job with the class. And it is growing, not dying, which in these times is really saying something ...

Making the muffler free would indeed be a mistake, as others have said it's trading lap time for $$$, something we don't want in a spec class. And there's no reason for Enterprises to come out with a "Laguna" muffler when the rest of the country doesn't have this problem. We (SFR) just have to deal with this locally. While I am a relatively new competitor (2 years) I don't understand the problem with just having an SFR supplemental rule specifying a second muffler (I don't like the current free second muffler ... it's just an opportunity to spend money). Extensive research isn't required as we don't need to maximize power, we just need equality.

The front swaybar is awful and IMHO the 2nd biggest source of frustration in our cars. The first being the shift actuator of course. It's fortunate that the swaybar has a cheap fix.

Scott - I disagree about 50k being the minimum for a safe racecar. Are you saying FM cars are junk? (OK yes they are ) I do think that 50k is a great value though. We have a truly modern car with bare minimum operating cost.

[mousecatcher]

just wanted to add, having all the owners have a vote on changes (the last paragraph of the letter) is a mistake. it will breed a tragedy of the commons situation. you just have to accept that there will be changes that you don't like. just like you would vote for changes in your self-interest, Enterprises will only make changes that are in their (ie, the FE class's) best interest, and they along with the CSRs have a much better and broader view into what is good for the class as a whole.

[Dan Aleckson]

Hi mouse catcher The problem with the muffler is not just a laguna issue its all tracks in california including thunderhill infineon buttonwillow .its been that way since day one.most of us run a wave tech super trap behind the enterprise muffler and there were 3 cars with soumd issues at the runoffs not 1.one person told me at barber track they were having sound issues and the person who was sound control put a sock over the mic...the one thing I do want to bring up is the use of tire warmers at the runoffs. I personally think this spec classs should ban them !! everbody wants parity but with tire warmers that is not the case a few teams used them.very difficult to compete with them.Brandon said the tires never came in till the 7th lap of the race. the thing I would like to see is the updates put on enterprises web site or some where so we can make sure we keep up with changes ecu updates or neww holes in the front wing end plates anyway thtas my 2cents..Dan

[mousecatcher]

the one thing I do want to bring up is the use of tire warmers at the runoffs. I personally think this spec classs should ban them !!

what!? i thought they were banned by the rules. guess i was mistaken. definitely they should not be allowed.

[Dan Aleckson]

they are allowed its in the gcr you just cant have them on the grid ... you can have them next too the grid with a generator .. they cost about 2 grand I dont want to go there, and Scca is the only group that allows them that i no of F1 has even banned them but not Scca. Let Eric Know you dont want them...Dan

[jimkelly]

Marshall:

A turndown on the SCCA unit will not work here. We currently use a second unit, which gets us to 99-101db. From all the posts I have been reading It looks like California FE cars will have to have a set of SFR regional rules only. We can't run the SCCA unit alone and we continue to run two units which is not what everyone else is doing . And it appears the rest of the FE community does not want to make changes, blame Laguna or our regional sound persons for the problems, when we are in total compliance.

Remember, Enterprises was in favor of a single unit for all, hence two years of testing.

It's fine with me if we at SFR must go outside the norm to race our cars. Or convert to FS.

The intent in my letter was to to get everyone communicating and know we at SFR do exist, and have real problems to solve.

#32-SFR














#32/SFR

[jimkelly]

Scott

Some people can make tires last 9 cycles some can't. The guys who put on new tires every race weekend would not know about this. I had a old style fm car, and star mazda had a filter, intake, shock, and muffler update that was an option for your car, but if you wanted to compete you needed to purchase these parts!!! I just don't want this class to go that route.

Sean Kelly
Driver #32 FE

[smcqueen]

Sorry, i've been sleeping. Tires usually hold up pretty well for four cycles. I will run eight cycles if the last four are at a regional race. They will be 2 seconds slower on the last four cycles and borderline dangerous loose at eight and nine cylcles (thats what I meant by no mid-corner push, I think)

I started road racing with SCCA when I bought the FE car and learned the hard way on how to play the sound game. I have protested and lost on placement of sound meters which were located inside of the track at exit of a bend where the exhaust is pointed at the meter at near max rpm. The fix was to shift a little early. On other tracks a turnout may be needed. From my experience the sound problem is only near max rpm. As far as the State of California, I can't really help you there. An alternate muffler should be allowed for CA IMHO, understanding that it will either hurt you HP or cost quite a bit of money.

As far as the cost of the car goes, I don't think there is any room to complain about the cost of the car at 50K. If you read through the FF forum about the new Honda proposals and possibilty of new cars being built, the concensus seems to be that a new FF will be greater than 50K. I know that Enterprises was constained in their original contrct with VD on replacement parts, however, in my discussion with Erik, I know that he is doing everything that he can to negotiate lower prices or get into a position to where they can outsource parts. I think the ideal situation would be for Enterprise to have the ability to provide specs and QA on parts, qualify the vendors, then take bids from multiple suppliers which would enable them to drive prices down. I just don't know if they will be able to get there.

And or course, I do like all of the upgrades approved to date. They correct defeciencies in the car and enhance long term value of the car and class.

scott

[jcorsico]

Sorry, i've been sleeping. Tires usually hold up pretty well for four cycles. I will run eight cycles if the last four are at a regional race. They will be 2 seconds slower on the last four cycles and borderline dangerous loose at eight and nine cylcles (thats what I meant by no mid-corner push, I think)

Oh man. So I should ditch those Hooiser's I have with 19 cycles?! There's still penty of rubber on them, most of it pickup from the track!

Jon

[riderxracer]

All this class needs is:


1. A trans actuator that will work all the time
2. A muffler that will pass all the time (CA excepted)


Understandably for marketing purposes ( i.e. car sales) the adj F sway bar would be ok, maybe make it an option for cockpit adjustable.

Tires great as are. If they can make a better product at comparable price , then fine , have at it. Our tires are less expensive than F 500

Lee Rackley
FE # 79

[Dan Aleckson]

Hi Lee I hear you on the tires rule or lack of .. The tires we ran in the race had 3 heat cycles on them..We might be getting priced out of running nationals.. I didnt know that oxygenated fuel made that much of a difference..Dan

[riderxracer]

3-4 hp on my dyno

Lee

[Marshall Mauney]

3-4 hp on my dyno

Lee

Seriously? Sounds like I chose poorly.....