Need help with F600 build

[VDF1]

I want to start building a F600, so I need to start gathering parts such as wheels and tires, axle, engine etc. for layout and mockup for chassis and bodywork. I'm on a very limited budget, so inexpensive is the key, while donations or loans would be ideal!!! Also, any input would be appreciated.

I have much experience bulding racecars and this will be a serious effort.

Thanks,

Tom Kaufman
vdf1@aol.com
203-948-1413

[formulasuper]

Tom, You may want to consider looking for a used F500 chassis as a source of most of the parts, even if you plan to fab your own frame. Probably less expensive than buying all the parts seperately. It should include the suspension, brakes, steering, fire system, etc.

I want to start building a F600, so I need to start gathering parts such as wheels and tires, axle, engine etc. for layout and mockup for chassis and bodywork. I'm on a very limited budget, so inexpensive is the key, while donations or loans would be ideal!!! Also, any input would be appreciated.

I have much experience bulding racecars and this will be a serious effort.

Thanks,

Tom Kaufman
vdf1@aol.com
203-948-1413

[jim murphy]

Tom,
Most of the F500 posting activity occurs on www.eformulacarnews.com F500 forum. Your best bet is what Scott said - buy a recent F500 chassis and build from there because the only difference is the drivetrain. Chris Ross & Chris Reinhardt both live in NC and are building F600 conversions as we speak. Next item is to go to the ARRC at Road Atlanta in November and closely look over the three F600's expected to race there. Don't expect prompt responses right now because a large percentage of the F5 drivers are at the Runoffs this week. Learn everything that you can BEFORE you spend any money.
Please post and keep us updated on your progress - we look forward to seeing you at the races.

Jim
Been messing with these cars since 1982

[VDF1]

I agree, buying a complete car would be the ideal way to go, but the budget prohibits it. I would be happy to do a conversion for someone... Another reason to buy parts is that I want to design a new car from the ground up. I was going to do a DSR, but due to the extra cost and the fact that my shop is not yet set up for advanced composite work, I figured Sports Racer Lite (F600) would be the best route.
I wish I were at the Runoffs as I had planned, but work is keeping me home. It would have helped to be there doing some networking!

[iamuwere]

There is no way you will create wheels, tires, axles, hubs, bearings, suspension arms, rod ends (way expensive cost in building a car), chassis, bodywork, firesystem, fuel cell ($1200 or so just for a fuel cell alone), and so on and so on cheaper then buying a full car ready to sell. We have our race ready KBS mk5 on its way to a new owner at a fraction of the cost of even just some of those parts to start a build.

If you feel a used car is out of the question cost wise, I hate to sound discouraging, but you will spend considerably more assembling all of the other pieces to build something groud up. I have done that approach in a round about way a couple of times and have regretted doing by the end of the deal.

Look carefully at a few very, very good cars for sale cheap right now. You can even sell the engine off to recoup costs (as well as clutches).

jim

[jim murphy]

The smart way to do the car building that you say that you want to do is to go thru a learning process first by converting a used F500 chassis into a MC car. From the lessons that you learn during this conversion process you should be in much better shape to then build one from scratch if you still have the "hots" to do this. But the first step still remains - learn everything that you can first before any money is spent. Go thru all the threads on the F500 forum, crew for a nearby F5 driver for several races and ask questions of the F500 forum to fill in the rest.

Jim

[VDF1]

All good points. I would like to buy a used car, but it will be a while before I can afford that. It takes a considerable amount of time to build a car from scratch, so I can spread the cost of parts over that time. What I would need most to get started is wheels & tires and a rear axle. An engine would be nice too (a blown one would be fine for mockup).

Tom

[DMac]

If you are doing any design on the computer, http://www.wwufsae.com/Shared_FSAE_CAD_Library/ will help you. It has digital models of the 600cc motors and various other components that you might be able to use for your design.

Dave

[jim murphy]

McMahon and McMahan? Probably remote relatives. Clint & Dan McMahan live in the Atlanta area and are road testing the first F600 - next at the ARRC in November.

Jim

[Wren]

If you are doing any design on the computer, http://www.wwufsae.com/Shared_FSAE_CAD_Library/ will help you. It has digital models of the 600cc motors and various other components that you might be able to use for your design.

Dave

Can we get some teaser photos of the FB that you are building? When do you expect to hit the track with it?

For the OP- it really will be a lot cheaper in the long run to just wait and save your money to buy a F500 roller and then convert. There are just so many things like transponder, fire bottle, fittings, and other things. I know it feels like you can spread the amount out over time and you don't have to pay for your labor, but even with a full machine shop, it would have been cheaper/easier to purchase a car.

[VDF1]

I do get all that. Maybe as I'm building I can find a donor car, but for me, the process of designing/building a car is as enjoyable and rewarding as racing itself. This car would also serve as a prototype for a production run.

[JerryH]

I do get all that. Maybe as I'm building I can find a donor car, but for me, the process of designing/building a car is as enjoyable and rewarding as racing itself. This car would also serve as a prototype for a production run.

For those of you that don't know, Tom has built open wheel cars for SCCA competition in the past, and successfully. Go for it Tom!

Jerry Hodges

[VDF1]

Thanks Jerry!
It has ocurred to me that I don't have to have real wheels and tires for the initial mockup. Will someone please give me OD and width of front and rear tires for starters? I like the idea of downloading engine specs etc. to a CAD program, but I also like to have the real thing in front of me to "try on".

Thanks

[gbmetcalf]

I have an older Red Devil F440 that I have been changing out the roll hoops to 1.375 from the 1.25 origionals and was looking at making it an autocross car with a kawasaki ninja 600 motor I bought on ebay. Then I stumble across this thread! I am very interested in this new class has it been approved yet? Are the rules posted anywhere?

Brian

[na94]

If you're starting from scratch, you will have a very tough time if you don't design your kinematics (suspension geometry) upfront (read: you will be stuck with a lemon). From talking to individuals who have done ground-up design, a good starting point would be to get the Rowley or Milliken books (or both) and buy a copy of susprog or wingeo to lay out the suspension. Next, measure out an existing car and play with it in the kinematics program in order to see what you can improve on, if anything.

Lastly, 'locate' a copy of solidworks and design your chassis around the pickup points and roll structures. If you can figure out how to perform FEA then all the better. If you can make your chassis fit bodywork for other popular models, all the better, as good glass work is hard to do without a very large shop in which to build a full plug.

This sounds easier than it is. Do you have milling and turning capabilities? How good are you with a welder? Do you have an oven? Do you have a build plate?

If you do a full physical design add up everything down to the last gubbin, you will understand the saying 'cheaper to buy than build', at least if you want a competitive, reliable product. This is no joke.

[tombu-mi]

I have an older Red Devil F440 that I have been changing out the roll hoops to 1.375 from the 1.25 origionals and was looking at making it an autocross car with a kawasaki ninja 600 motor I bought on ebay. Then I stumble across this thread! I am very interested in this new class has it been approved yet? Are the rules posted anywhere?

Brian

The class has currently been approved to road race Regionally with F500 in many areas.
Here's a link to give you some info -

http://www.eformulacarnews.com/viewt...er=asc&start=0

If you search the eformula site, you'll find the specific rules proposal. Of course, that's for road racing. In autocross, you'd have to run in AMod until and unless the class is approved as an alternative one in F500. By the way, you don't need to upgrade the roll hoops if it's only going to be an autocross car.

[jim murphy]

Either A mod or B Mod, the solo rules are posted on the national website - www.scca.com .
Most of us suspect that the MC car will be slower in solo F Mod than the 2 stroke due to all the shifting required. The FSAE's use the same drivetrain with a SIR and shift multiple times during each run; they are faster due to their state of the art chassis, aerodynamics, LSD, brakes and suspension.

Jim
Been messing with these cars since 1982.