Can someone explain what happened?

[JRMarchand]

I had the worst "racing luck" at the Double national Nelson Ledges, this past weekend, I started race 1 in the back of the pack because of no qualifying times in my FM.
At the start, before turn one i got turned around by Yelkin in a CSR, my car ended up in a muddy ditch, it took almost 45 seconds to get the car out of the mudhole and back on track, I didn't go a lap down yet. Scott Rettich in FE is leading overall and shows up in my mirrors, a few laps later he gets by me and now I am a lap down but running right behind Rettich for a few laps until a double yellow comes out. Under double yellow, the pace car picks up the field, behind the pace car are 5 backmarkers on the lead lap, then Rettich(leader) and I followed by Evans FE. So here, the pace car sends the 5 backmarkers(still on the lead lap) to go ahead and break from the pack and drive to the tail end of the group. The other car in my class was in that group of cars that the SCCA officials sent to the back of the line, I automatically have no chance of competing for first place. Why would the SCCA make a decision to send the slow cars, still in the lead lap, under double yellow to the back of the pack without putting them a lap down? yeah thats right, I still don't get it, they gave me the checkered flag at the end but the results showed me in second.... I didn''t protest because they gave me the checkered flag. So I don't get it, is this a mistake that can't be reversed, the Chief Steward had a lot of trouble trying to help me understand that is was racing luck and not so much anybodys fault. Is it standard procedure to send the backmarkers (on the lead lap), under double yellow, to the back off the pack without putting them a lap down, my competition was taken away from me under yellow and send to the back of the pack. I'll post a video if it would help recreate the situation. any comments welcome thanks JuanMarchand

[GeoffRain]

Hi JR

I'm sure some chief stuards will chime in, but it sounds like they followed the rulebook... you were a lap down and the other cars were not. The pace car may have entered the course ahead of those backmarkers, but it's mission is to pace the leader, and line up the rest of the field behind said leader. Sending backmarkers around is standard practive. Unfortunaltely, once you are officially 1 lap down, a pace car won't "unwind" that.

We've all been there at least once. If you were running right behind the leader for a few laps it sounds like you are fast, so I hope you had a fun weekend despite the results.


geoff

[Matt King]

If there was a "lucky dog" rule, you would have been waived around the leader as the first car in the group a lap down. As mentioned, the other cars were still on the lead lap, so there is no reason they should have been put a lap down by the yellow coming out.

[GT1Vette]

This is also an example of one of the downsides of running multiple classes in a group. You and your buddy in Formula Yugo are having a whale of a battle, then the overall leader comes up to lap both of you. Just as he passes you (putting you a lap down) a double yellow comes out. Your buddy, who was two seconds ahead of you but had NOT been lapped yet) gets to go all the way around while you're "stuck" behind the leader.

Bad luck, yes, and in this case through no fault of your own other than being slightly behind the guy you were racing with at the time. Guys in IMSA and GrandAm (where multi-class racing AND double yellows are prevalent) have bitched about this for years, but unfortunately it's just part of the deal.

[John Nesbitt]

What you describe sounds like normal practice.

When the Chief Steward dispatches the Safety Car, Race Control attempts to launch the Safety Car so that it enters the track in front of the race leader. The cars following are required to close up and to form a tight single-file pack behind the Safety Car.

In the event that the Safety Car does not come out in front of the race leader (i.e. there are backmarkers between the Safety Car and the leader), the crew in the Safety Car will wave these backmarkers past until they pick up the leader. The backmarkers proceed around and join the end of the pack.

Your experience is what happens when you are a lap down, with the leader in front of you on the road, and other cars in front of him, but close to being lapped. By bunching up the field (to permit the emergency workers to deal with the crash scene), the Safety Car eliminates all the inter-car gaps. Everybody who was ahead of his competition on the road loses something, everybody who was a distance behind his competition gains something, folks just about to be lapped gain a bunch, folks just lapped lose a bunch.

Remember that the Safety Car comes out in order to clear the track to deal with an emergency. Some drivers gain from it; some lose. Over your racing career, it should even out, 'sort of'.

See GCR 6.3.2 for the rule.

[Matt King]

This is also an example of one of the downsides of running multiple classes in a group. You and your buddy in Formula Yugo are having a whale of a battle, then the overall leader comes up to lap both of you. Just as he passes you (putting you a lap down) a double yellow comes out. Your buddy, who was two seconds ahead of you but had NOT been lapped yet) gets to go all the way around while you're "stuck" behind the leader.

I had this happen to me once on the last lap of a race. I was chasing another car in class for second position, and was only a few tenths behind him when we were coming up to the start/finish line for the last lap of the race. The white flag was still out, but the overall group leader (in a different class), who was nearly a full lap ahead of us, edged me across the line by literally a fender, ending the race and putting me a lap down to the car I was racing that was barely 2-3 car lenths ahead of me on track. In hindsight, the overall leader could have lifted at the line to let me cross first. Racing luck for sure. I'm still waiting for that one to even itself out!

[JRMarchand]

Thanks for the great explanations, it is racing luck and it all evens out in the end, thank you. juanmarchand.com

[Rick Kirchner]

[QUOTE/] In hindsight, the overall leader could have lifted at the line to let me cross first. Racing luck for sure. I'm still waiting for that one to even itself out![/QUOTE]

At buttonwillow a couple years back a guy in an atlantic who was 1st overall and wayyyy out front of his competition, approached a couple of hard fighting s2000s in the last turn before the checker. Instead of backing off and letting them have at it, he forced himself down the inside, they all tangled, and he ended up with the left side cleaned off on the pit wall, about 100 yds before the finish.

Red Mist, indeed

[GT1Vette]

I had this happen to me once on the last lap of a race. I was chasing another car in class for second position, and was only a few tenths behind him when we were coming up to the start/finish line for the last lap of the race. The white flag was still out, but the overall group leader (in a different class), who was nearly a full lap ahead of us, edged me across the line by literally a fender, ending the race and putting me a lap down to the car I was racing that was barely 2-3 car lenths ahead of me on track. In hindsight, the overall leader could have lifted at the line to let me cross first. Racing luck for sure. I'm still waiting for that one to even itself out!

Matt,

Was the overall leader involved in a tight race or was he alone? Obviously if he was battling for the win then everything's fine, but if he was (relatively) alone on the track, it sure would have been considerate to not mess with a race in a different class. And if he WAS just being a d*ckhead, maybe he wadded the thing up later and THAT took priority in the "evening out" hierarchy?

You really don't want to mess with the racing gods...

[mousecatcher]

interesting thread. i'd never considered that the overall leader can screw up slower class's races this way.

this did happen to me once (to my benefit). i finished a lap ahead of other folks because i was the only car not lapped. if you just looked at our (FE) race it was reasonably close but the final results were that the other cars were lapped, which "on paper" was odd. not that i would have been caught in one more lap (it wasn't as close as Matt's race), but you never know.

but i never put 2+2 together and realized that the overall leader can control the results that way.

i've also seen a pace car situation like the OP's.

next year I'll be racing FA so in the event that i am ever overall leader (yeah right!) i'll keep this in mind. this should be called out explicitly in some kind of FAQ somewhere.

[problemchild]

How's this? I start the last lap of a FV race in 4th. The two lead cars crash together in 3 .... one ends up in the tire wall and does a slow roll over back onto it's roll hoop. I make the pass for the lead on the back straight. Officials throw red flag as I am 300 yds from checker.
Results return to the order of the last complete lap. I'm 4th and guy on his roof wins! What was even more annoying was that nobody was close to being hurt ..... 80 % of the field had passed through the incident .... the officials could have gone FC yellow if not finished the race under green and gone yellows on the cool-off lap.
The guy who made the "call" had never raced but played his politics very well. He made the racing at Mosport in the 90s a real challenge .... as if the track was not enough!

[Mark_Silverberg]

This happened to me at VIR in spring of 2008 in a mixed group Vintage race. The FV group requested a split start by about half a lap. We would catch the slow prod cars but the sports racers (typically old F-H Mod cars) would catch US. I was battling for P2-4 and the race leader caught me by a nose at S/F when I was in P4. To his credit I did hear him back off right before the line. I was not sure if he had passed me so I stayed engaged for the last lap but made sure I did nothing to disrupt P2 and 3 - but would have passed them if I could have done so cleanly.

Remember - this is supposed to be fun - I did not have any less fun because the leader passed me.

[Tom Valet]

Results return to the order of the last complete lap. I'm 4th and guy on his roof wins!

What is the rule in this situation? Is there a rule that says the cars that bring out the red flag cannot benefit from their accident and will not be placed in their prior position on the last completed lap? If there is no such rule, perhaps there should be.

[Larry]

No such rule that removed the upside-down competitor. As stated, the results revert to the last scored lap. The operating stewards try to keep the race alive, but safety is always paramount. If they err, hopefully it's in the side of the safer decision. If there is a question about whether it should be full course yellow or a red flag, it's usually a simple call. In all my years of stewarding, I've only thrown one red flag, so it's certainly not a common occurrence, while full course yellow happens on most weekends.

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products

[andyllc]

That is definitely unfortunate how it happened but as everyone said, it was SOP.
In my Grand Am races we FINALLY have something to prevent this but it took years to develop and we are able to have much longer races which allow for some different antics.

Rolex or the Koni series is the same because there are two classes in each. When a FCY comes out the pace car goes out and right before we go back to green we will do our wavebys. We will send all cars behind the pace car but in front of the leader for each respective class around the pace car to the back of the line. That way for multiclass racing you don't get caught out by the FCY. There are different things that come in to play with strategy for pit stops and such but that is beside the point.

It wouldn't work for SCCA type races as our FCY's are sometimes as long as an SCCA race but it is a nice system. I have certainly been in the same position as the original post and it is disappointing but the way it works sometimes.

[Rick Kirchner]

A simple rule such as "in the event of a red flag, cars involved in the incident and no longer under power may NOT be scored in front of any competitor still running."

[problemchild]

I think this stuff all evens out in the long run. What do you do with the 3 cars that got caught up in a secondary accident as a result of the first incident? Who determines who was to blame? In most oval racing, they move everyone to the back .... sometimes even a guy who just stops to avoid the wreck .... which is not fair either.

In this case, it was just an arrogant "clerk" who was not concerned about the fairness of competition but just wanted to get the mess cleaned up and get back on schedule. He followed "policy" even though it ruined the race for the competitors. The same guy made dozens of bizaar decisions over the period of his control of Mosport race operations. This was just one. He has moved on fortunately.

[Mark_Silverberg]

I think the real issues here is determining who "caused" the situation and who was "caught" in the situation. Instead of getting caught in shades of grey it probably would have to be no one or everyone. In oval track racing, since yellow flag laps are not counted (scored), typically drivers who "cause" the yellow are sent to the tail.

[JRMarchand]

Mark

I agree, unfortunately the car that caused the double yellow was 5 feet up on a pretty wall formation of vintage or used tires that can only be appreciated at a place known as Nelson, anyways, it seems that those gray areas should be better managed, I still think like a racer, if you take the guy i want to beat from my line of sight and i can't compete for the win, i will be upset and stubborn, i wanted to beat the guy who had no business being in front of me, anyways, i'm ready for the next one. juanmarchand.com

[Mark Walthew]

Back in 1984 Eric Cruz and I were pit crew for Al Taylor in GT-1 at the Runoffs at Road Atlanta. Al raced what was essentially a vintage BP Corvette. Great guy, just there to have fun, probably qualified last. Well during the race the sky opened up in the turn 6 & 7 area. Al saw the rain coming down as he approached turn 6 and braked hard as the leaders lapped him and then they crashed. Al stayed out because Eric and I didn't have any rain tires or tools in the pits. We did panic when another old 'vette came in and started changing to rains. Finally Al came in and started yelling for rain tires because it was just too dangerous on slicks. It still wasn't raining in the pits. The race was then red flagged. Almost the entire field had crashed in turns 6 & 7. It was bad. Bob Sharp came over to Al and congratulated him on winning the Runoffs, Al's reply was "thanks, sometimes it pays to be a coward". They then backed the results up a lap and awarded the National Championship to Jim Fitzgerald who had crashed in turn 6. Al was fine with it, he never expected to win.

[LD71]

I learned many years ago that you make your own 'Racing Luck'. I was complaining to Bertil Roos that a guy took me out in a Formula Vee race by spinning in front of me. Bertil's response was, 'why was that guy in front of you?'

When you start at the back of the back with no qualifying time, you run the risk of the situation described here. it might have happened because the car broke in practice or qualifying, it might have been that you had a family obligation taht kept you sway from the track, it might have been that there was traffic on the way to the track and you got a flat on the tow vehicle. Or all of the above.

The solution is not to start at the back of the pack with no qualifying time. Easier said than done, life sometimes gets in the way.

LD71

[JRMarchand]

Yeah, yesterday I was late to the grid by one minute at my hometrack GingerMan, for the third straight weekend, I start dead last and start passing and passing cars wee!!, there is so much more racing this way. So on lap 15 of 24 a double yellow comes out in corner 10 and the leader in FA passes me under yellow..... things got screwy , a black flag comes out under yellow for the whole field, so we sit in the pit lane and the lead FA is sent to the front. I guess the black flag came out because timing and scoring lost the system and was not working properly, they had to hand score everything, what a mess right, I started to feel like racing luck was knocking on the door, nothing else weird happen though, took first. juanmarchand.com

[Paul LeCain]

When you start at the back of the back with no qualifying time, you run the risk of the situation described here.
LD71

He got taken out early following a bad qualifying. When asked about it, he said "That's the problem with qualifying poorly. Bad stuff happens back here."

[Dave Stevens]

Juan,

the race was blackflagged because the ambulance had to transport a medical emergency which occurred in the tower. The timing system was down though, and definently messed up scoring the race, I finished 3rd in FC behind LaRue and Tomasi, yet T&S had me scored in fourth, and had moved up an FC from deeper in the field and posted him as the overall leader after the black flag, according to the lap chart they had posted on the board. I talked to the head of T&S and they are supposed to review everything, but who knows if anything will change. Weird weekend.

Dave

[JRMarchand]

Dave

weird weekend yes, i just realized that we raced for most of the session , remember seeing the ST. Clair decal on the side of the car , so I knew to be nice and avoid contact , later

[Steve Demeter]

There was also a fire in the paddock that the fire truck had to be dispatched to put out. It was a race car.

so we had no ambulance or fire and rescue available if there was an incident on track.

Black flag all was the thing ot do.

I agrtee 100% that sending the more than 1 car frpom the back to the front of the line was the wrong thing to do.

Additionally the manner in which we as drivers were informed of the restart was poor at best.

OK you are going NOW. Move 100 feet up the pit lane. OOPS wait here. then 30 seconds later we get a 1 minute signal.

I made these feelings known to the exec steward of GLDIV and the operating steward. They were a bit defensive at first, but once I convinced them that i was not there to bitch and moan but to [provide constructive feedback the entier tone changed and they were very receptive to what I had to say.

Now as for not black flagging the yung lady in the 45 FE for charging through the field on the pace lap to "get my spot back" that is another entire thing. And I think she needs to lose her license for that stunt as it is quite obvious that since the pace lap has a double yellow at every single station, you do not pass. And the upshot is that on the pace lap one does not expect someone to come charging by them. She could have injured or torn someone's car up very easily. And a National driver darn well ought to kow that you do not pass under yellow.

But it still was a fun race even with those little distractions and the host regions are to be complimented for putting on a great event, particularly the weather steward.

[Matt King]

Now as for not black flagging the yung lady in the 45 FE for charging through the field on the pace lap to "get my spot back" that is another entire thing. And I think she needs to lose her license for that stunt as it is quite obvious that since the pace lap has a double yellow at every single station, you do not pass.

Was she "seventh"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zyr6VDaaWJE

[Dave Stevens]

Juan,

Yup we ran pretty close most of the time. That gaggle of traffic we caught right at the end was pretty amazing, kinda hard to predict what anybody was doing, and really wanted to finish the weekend with all four corners on the car. Did you have problems on that last lap, or just decide to bring it home in one piece, noticed you slowed up quite a bit on the backstraight.

Dave

[Matt Satchell]

that video was hilarious. see what happens when you try to be a nice guy

[mmi16]

that video was hilarious. see what happens when you try to be a nice guy

When Grid workers say it is time to go...GO!

[JRMarchand]

Dave

I felt a loss of fuel pressure getting on the front straight, so I tip toe to the finish, i had a lot of fun keeping up with your pace which was perfect for taking the fm win, i was hoping for more grip from my front good year tires, they never came into play.
i agree, we have so many barney's out there, we all make mistake at times, if its not him, then its her or its some official's fault.

I thought it was weird to see the black FE going around to get a lap back ha ha, what is happening "under yellow" at my races this year is strange

the "burning" car is the FM of Schnitta, track owner, it was nothing more than a busted muffler on a formula mazda, so the flames were coming out of the top of the muffler instead of the tailpipe, they yanked the driver off the race and then wouldn't let him start the car?? what the hell, mazda and flames , why are they jumping up and down,

get this, the chief steward told the driver (Schnitta) that he had reason to believe that somebody else was driving the car and not Schnitta, so they thought a hot shoe driver jumped in the purple #99 GingerMan FM.... and did he break a track record?? we shall see, the results are not out yet.

juanmarchand.com