Spinning '03 R1 backwards?

[ReynardF1000]

Have any of you gents spun an '03, R1 motor backwards, of course, accidentally? I was hit and spun at Thunderhill last weekend and before I could get to the clutch the motor died and spun backwards. The motor will not spin with the starter now, although I can hear the starter solenoid working. I have not tried to spin the motor with the spark plugs removed to verify that the motor itself is okay. There may be something wrong with the wiring because I had issues with the battery going dead over the race weekend. I'd like to know if I MAY have a wiring AND starter/engine issue before I address the problem this weekend.

Thanks!

[RobLav]

I've heard that the starter gears fry if you go backwards. Have not experienced it yet though. Got lucky twice last weekend doing 360's.

[Dave Gomberg]

Well known problem - not just the R1. Find another starter.

Dave

[HastyHorn]

The starter clutch on all the modern 1000cc bike engines engages the crank when the starter motor spins the clutch faster than the stationary crankshaft through a series of rollers and inclined ramps. As soon as the engine starts the surface of the crankshaft begins to spin faster than the clutch. This results in the clutch disengaging (mechanically) from the crankshaft. Even if you punch the starter button (the starter will spin over) the starter clutch cannot engage the faster turning surface.

This works very well on the motorcycle...the motorcycle would have a very hard time spinning on a track 180 degrees and driving the engine backwards....we, on the other hand find it easy to do. In a car when the rear wheels force the engine to turn over backwards the starter clutch is forced to engage by mechanical design. Worse it is forced to engage at ridiculous starter motor speeds. The windings in the starter motor cannot handle that kind of rpm and they fly apart.

The rule is, Get that clutch in.

Some bike engines do it easier than others but they all do it.


Hasty Horn

[ReynardF1000]

Thanks, guys.

I had heard this with GSX-R1000's, but didn't know it was also an issue with R1's. Fortunately, I have a spare starter motor. Is it usually the case that the rest of the starter apparatus is left okay?

[formulasuper]

With any kind of race car the rule is, "when you spin, both feet in". That means the clutch & the brake. The clutch saves your starter on the bike engined cars & keeps from stalling your engine, plus the brake keeps you from rolling into the path of any other cars that are trying to avoid hitting you!

[HastyHorn]

As far as I know there haven't been any internal problems...replacing the starter motor has "cured" the situation in the past. Keeping a spare starter motor is a wise idea.

Hasty Horn

[ReynardF1000]

Thank you for your quick response, Hasty.
As for both feet in, I'm aware of this. However, I've built my car using the clutch pedal as a side foot rest for my left braking foot. This reduces the footbox size and works great... except when I need to declutch rapidly. I've saved the starter once, so far. I got to the clutch in time and the motor even stayed alive that time.

[Brian]

FWIW it's called a Sprague clutch. I was once 100 miles into a 300 mile drive, at dusk, miles from a city (well, 100 miles in one direction and 200 miles in the other direction ) on a Kawasaki KZ750 twin and the sprague clutch failed. It kinda came apart into all of it's constituent pieces. I had to pull the starter off, pull the side cover off, take out all of the pieces, put it all back together, in the rapidly failing light using the little tool kit that they give you with those bikes. I had one of those hammer driven impact wrenches to take out all of the frozen phillips head screws they hold the side cover on with. That bike was one of the last to have a kick start, so it spent the next couple of years getting kick-started just fine!

Moral of the story - the sprague clutch sure can fail, and the result is a locked up engine. Take a look at it, don't assume it lived without any harm.

Brian

[RussMcB]

I've built my car using the clutch pedal as a side foot rest for my left braking foot. This reduces the footbox size and works great... except when I need to declutch rapidly.

Greg, can you elaborate on this? You've piqued my interest. I have not been able to imagine exactly what you are describing here.

BTW, I know that FormulaSuper has been the victim (twice?) of bonehead moves (out of control spinners), so he is understandably a strong proponent of both feet in.

[ReynardF1000]

Hi, Russ.
I've removed the foot pad from the clutch pedal and adjusted it to stand further back towards me. I then installed a sheet of aluminium to rest my foot against on the side of the clutch pedal. I installed an extra spring to hold the clutch pedal back towards me so it stays put while my foot is rubbing against it (I've polished and waxed the surface to make for a nice footrest). With a side rest on the throttle pedal, my feet are held steady in place and driving is made easier and safer.
I understand strong feelings when one has been taken out by mistakes. Unfortunately mistakes are made and hopefully learned from. i suggest that driving tips be shared and attitude kept to oneself.
Greg

[RussMcB]

Greg, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to insinuate that your incident was a bonehead move, but I can see how my posting would be interpreted that way. I was thinking of FormulaSuper's incidents specifically.

[formulasuper]

Greg, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to insinuate that your incident was a bonehead move, but I can see how my posting would be interpreted that way. I was thinking of FormulaSuper's incidents specifically.

Both of my incidents that Russ refered to were caused by a car spinning imediately in front of me where my only option was to try to steer around the spinning car. Unfortunately both drivers had never heard of the both feet in. Heck, I would have been satisfied if they would have even just used their right foot! In both cases they finished spinning & then proceded to let their car roll backwards right into the path I had choosen to miss them. I almost made it by the first guy but he was able to roll just far enough to catch my left rear tire which launched me about 3 feet into the air & broke the suspension. The other guy was able to do an even better job of rolling backwards & caught the same tire which ran me head on into & under a 4 row deep tire wall which destroyed every single piece of fiberglass body work on my 85' Reynard FC & put a big tire tread mark on my helmet. (Those old tires can contain some pretty nasty water inside)! Since those parts are no longer available it thereafter became known as the "Silver Bullet" since I had to spend the next many months fabricating all new bodywork from aluminum! Both feet in, please!!

[carnut169]

Crutchfield racing makes a starter saver- a gizmo that slides the starter back once started via push-pull cable... don't know if it would work for a R1, but it does on a GSXR.

[glenn cooper]

get me one of those gizmo's.
GC

[ReynardF1000]

I saw that starter saving widget a while back as well. Maybe I'll make one for my R1.