Change FC?

[Bob Wright]

Curtis- last year FC was the SECOND largest class...The ranks of FC grew almost continually from the late '80's to about 2000 and then started to drop off as the new choices you mentioned started to appear (not just Zetec). FF has actually been rebounding recently, again as you point out.

I'm simply an advocate of doing whatever is necessary to preserve and strengthen the class in light of all that competition. The motor package is maybe the most visible, but not the only way to achieve the goal. New blood (younger members) is crucial to the health of the class, not to mention SCCA in general.

As an aside-look at the number of new F Mazdas that have been bought in the last year (65 and growing)- and ask how many current national FC drivers would jump to them if they became a national class or even became FA eligible....food for thought.

[Douglas Brenner]

I agree with Les on almost everything except I don't necessaraly want paredy. In most regions we seem to be stuck racing with the older Mazdas instead of the FF's where we belong (we are after all just FF's with wings and enough extra HP to run them). If we had 10-20 more hp the FM's wouldn't be such a factor.
I really love the new Mazdas but they don't meet my criterion as follows:
1. Not a tube frame
2. Spec shocks (I think??)
3. Three times the $ of FC
I have never had any trouble with my pintos. I think that the maintainence problems are very overstated and I am quite happy with them. But it might be time to move on.. Also I would like to apologize to the drivers east of us if I have mis-stated the size and condition of FC. All I can tell you is out here almost no one shows up in FC. I don't know if this is a trend that will spread to you soon, or there is some fundamental difference out here. I am only stating my opinion based on my reality here.

[Curtis Boggs]

Originally posted by Douglas Brenner:
Also I would like to apologize to the drivers east of us if I have mis-stated the size and condition of FC. All I can tell you is out here almost no one shows up in FC. I don't know if this is a trend that will spread to you soon, or there is some fundamental difference out here. I am only stating my opinion based on my reality here.

Doug,

Calf. might be different then the "other" coast, .. and it might be the same thing I've noticed here, .. more sedans.
This Spec Miata class is inexpensive to get into, .. and race, .. hence the huge growth in that class.
We're seeing it here in the East and it might be the same thing for you, I don't know.

My other observation, .. it takes a certain type of racer to run a formula car. A guy who likes to tinker with rake, shocks, . . etc. other then the more advanced sedan classes
this might be why classes like SM are popular, .. minimum tuning, .. jump in & race, .. change the oil once a year.

Curtis

[Les Phillips]

What a massive library of comentary! I have read only a few posts so will most likely offer duplicates and even lame observations. A few thoughts.

I am the primary organizer of the Pacific F2000 series and the manager at Buttonwillow Raceway. I have driven FC since 1987 and have never driven at the Runoffs because I think a frozen one track concept is wasteful. Too expensive for the long travel and lengthy bother.

On the West Coast FF is dead and has become a vintage class. There are zero new drivers moving into FF. I think it is because it never bothered to move forward. The English FF with 145? HP, slick but hard tires and a variety of chassis is so much more interesting. We cannot continue to live in the past. Our Pinto is certainly something from the past. To make the FC class vital it also needs to move ahead.

Trust me, making the Zetec near equal to the Pinto is sooo easy. For cost reasons we are juggling the formula so drivers do not have to buy wheels etc. and therefore the Zetec runs an extra 40 pounds. The weight adn our spec tires are a complicating factor. Put everybody on open FC whels and open tires with the same weight and the engine could be dialed to relicate teh Pinto.

In our series the Pinto has more high HP and less torque. The Zetec needs the torque to spin the extra weight. I have both a Pinto and a Zetec and the Zetec does not stop the extra wheel weight well. Make them all the same and it would be simple.

That said, all of our drivers want the Zetec simply because it is so much simpler and cheaper to operate. I tell my SRF friends my car has far less maintenance than their "Peoples" car and I spend less money raicng it as long as I do not hit anything heavy. Some of their crashes are often more costly than an FC car when their fragile frames are damaged.

My amazement is why this is even a debate. The Zetec concept is so superior in every way I qustion where FC will be in five years without a change. I suggest it will be in vintage with FF.

Les Phillips

[Frank C]

Doug:
I don't think any of us want parody, though I guess that is a term we might apply to the old FM's.
- Frank C

[butchcfc01]

Curtiss is on the mark! As, for class #'s the economy play's the big role. almost all of the newbee's have money, hence the move to wings. I,know a lot of cars are sitting due to money factors and if & when this rights itself they'll be back. looking at the cost of when I started in FF and today's $/cost it's hard for the regional entrants to see daylight and the club is not paying attention to this.A new configuration to the many choices will just dillute it further.the guy's that like our toy's just plain like to get dirty and how many of those have the dollars?
We need more club exposure!

[D.T. Benner]

Spec. Miata has it's own race group here. They start 55 to 60 cars each race. Maybe we are the only people left who LIKE to work on and set up a REAL race car anymore? How many Spec. Miata drivers spend 6 hours on an alignment and get their front corner weights within 3 pounds of each other. I don't mind the time and effort when i'm going thru turn 1 at Thunderhill at 139MPH and the car and i feel like we are one piece/joined together.Every sedan i ever drove was more like hurding cats! Well to each his/her own thing. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Les Phillips]

My only agenda is to see open wheel and specifically FC grow. In my view the Zetec can make that happen because it is so cheap to operate. I bought a used engine from a thumped car and now have over 7,000 miles with no apparent lack of power. The miles record for a racing Zetec is just over 11,000 miles. A motor that I saw abused beyond anything I have ever seen on a race track. Something worse than "little Kim" in the LBGP celebrity race. That was hard to watch. Little Kim had never driven a shifter before you see.

I won't say trust me because you may not. However, I am convinced that a basic restrictor plate and a properly calibrated ECU can be packaged to make the torque lines and HP lines on a dyno look like one trace when compared to a good Pinto. From our experience in the Pacific F2000 series, working with different weights, different wheel sizes, different tires, and different team and driver skill levels I do not see a problem. The difficulty is the other variables not the engine. If we all had the same basic platform I still believe it would be sooo easy. In a very short time we would all save a great deal of money and our class would gain a new vitality and grow.

I have watched the development and test program for the new FM car over the past eighteen months at Buttonwillow and have the highest regard for the program. I cannot participate because the travel for the series requires money and time far beyond the capability of myself and I am sure most of the readers. It still is a great car but not cheap and does not have a legitimate home in SCCA at this time. Maybe later as it is fast, roomy, modern parts and supported by a smart and responsive family and company. Great people to deal with.

As for Spec Miata. It is a nice little car that is pure vanilla. From what I see it is a myth that it is cheap to operate. People are spending far more on motors etc. to run near the front than I am with a real car. No thanks, very poor comparison to an FC in the driving pelasure department. I have zero interst and do not care how large the fields may be. You still only race with the pack that is closest to you.

Les Phillips

[Sean Maisey]

I just had to keep this topic going...

Last week I made the big committment and purchased a Zetec car. I plan to run it as a FA for the rest of the SEDIV National schedule (beginning at Atlanta next month).

I would love nothing more than to see the SCCA Comp Board adopt rules similar to the West Coast "See-Ya Pro Series" for FC in the next year or two. I would rather race heads up with a larger FC group than race as a handicapped FA and overdog to most FC/FM/FSCCA cars.

Either way, I look forward to being back out there amongst this very fine group of racers no matter what class letters adorn the side of my car.

See ya at the track,
Sean

[Larry]

Sean Maisey is a "classical" racer. He has raced SCCA for years, and has an affinity to open-wheel racing. Here's a fellow who tried to make sense of racing FF and FC, and opted for a car with a more modern, reliable engine.

All this talk about FF being healthy is an absolute crock! No one is making a new FF, and anything new that enters is a converted FC or British Zetec FF. Furthermore, the numbers quoted reference National races, while there are far more competitors running Regionals. At the VIR Regional last weekend, we had 367 cars. Two of them were FF...that hardly sounds healthy.

I can understand the desire to protect one's investment--whether 1600 or 2000--but a change is necessary or else the class will continue to dwindle--and it's in pretty sad shape now. We could ask Curtis why he didn't receive a series trophy after all his work last year--the short answer is there wasn't enough participation in the class. We could get into another discussion about how SCCA has damaged formula car racing, but it wouldn't help resolve this problem...

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products

[Thomas Copeland]

I've never been against allowing Zetec's in FC, except I didn't want it done at the expense of the current Pinto class in FC. I've always wanted to hear about lower cost options to the Zetec. If that means a carb version fine. We need a replacement engine in this class. But I don't want to limit it to a 10K pro spec motor when a non-pro spec Zetec can be bought for 3K or less. It's just insane to be escalating the costs when we can be reducing them instead.

The Comp Board suggestions didn't include looking at the potential of a carb Zetec, it only suggested we allow a pro-spec Zetec engine into FC.

Our class isn't teetering on the brink of extinction just yet. Let the comp board go back and look at allowing Zetec in FC, both carb and Pro spec versions, with a method of upgrading the older cars if needed. That makes more sense to me than the options I saw on the table in January.

[Curtis Boggs]

Larry,

All good points, .. but you could also ask Curtis why he built a brand new VanDiemen FF at about the same cost as a Zetec, .. and Van Diemen IS still building FF's, .. would you like me to ask Ralph the next time I see him. Let's avoid internet missinformation.

Ok, .. yes FF & FC aren't growing, .. this makes me VERY sad, .. and the engine package does have something to do with it, .. but that's NOT the entire story.

First, .. there's way too much propaganda regarding these engines, .. . .. properly cared for 2.L and 1600's aren't as fragile as the pro Zetec community would lead you to beleive. And do you think all this anti engine talk on this sight has kept some potential new guys away? I KNOW it has.

FF started loosing numbers the day FC started, .. and most guys in an open wheel car at schools often buy a FC as their first car, .. .. why pay the same for a car with less power and no wings.

I think the Zetec is an AWSOME package, .. no doubt, ..
and if I didn't like to tinker with engines I'd have one too.

But I think the bigger influence is the new racer, .. low on cash, .. doesn't want to work on the car too much, .. ..
just look at the spec miata class, .. those cars are multiplying like rabbits at a frat party.

Just trying to say, .. there's more to this then just the engine package.

Curtis
RFD

[Thomas Copeland]

Curtis, I'm not blasting you here but I got a question: you say the anti-engine talk has kept potential new guys away. Away from what? Buying a pinto engine car or buying a Zetec engine car? You must be talking Zetec's because the Pinto is already in FC and that ain't changing. Allowing Zetec in FC has the potential to destroy this class more than keeping things as they are would.

That's because once the Zetec is allowed in FC the pinto cars aren't going to be worth a bag of peanuts because the perception will be that they will be inferior to the Zetec.

That's why there needs to be a method for installing a low cost solution Zetec into the back of existing FC cars. If people are convinced they can race an older car and still be competitive with a newer Zetec one then we may not see field depletion. There will be plenty of people who would like to compete in FC but won't or can't buy a 10K motor. This parity idea of restricted Zetec's vs. pinto's will never fly on it's own. Most people will never believe it. I know I don't. I wish I could but I just can't. Little pink elephants don't fly. However, if they had an option to install a carb Zetec into their cars their mindset might be different.

If Zetec is allowed into FC tomorrow I might as well park my 2000 VD pinto car and call the garbage man or goodwill truck to come and haul it away. What trophies am I going to win, what points will I be able to earn facing a Zetec car?

This is the deliemma facing all of us who don't have a Zetec engine car. This issue needs to be addressed before we can consider allowing Zetec's in FC.

[robfox4]

I thought you guys might like to hear a reply from an ignorant newbie.

I drove street cars at "driver's schools" at places like Blackhawk and Gingerman for a few years, but I was also an F1 fan. I did a racing school, fell in love with driving open wheeled cars, and found out how I can make that a reality.

There really shouldn't be any talk of SM vs. FC because I think the drivers just have different interests. SM is exploding at the same rate that "tuned" imports are appearing on the streets. Take it from me... I work in the street car "tuning" industry. These guys all get excited over IT, SM, Touring, etc. Formula car drivers all say things like "real race cars don't have doors." It's just two different groups.

After my racing school, I did examine a few types of cars. Many of you are right about FF attracting newbies... why not have wings and more power? I may not be "ready" for my FC, but why spend the money on something that isn't as "cool" or doesn't appear to be as much fun? I thought seriously about FM and FC, and opted for the FC based on reports of the handling differences. I bought a used 98 VD last year.

Every formula car I looked at had very expensive engine rebuilds. Whatever the actual cost per racing mile is for the various car classes, on the surface I can tell you that I was very scared to commit to an engine that only lasts in the neighborhood of 15 hours. I would venture to say that on the list of pros and cons, going racing in an FF/FC would have the engine rebuild cost at the top of the "cons" list.

I just got done with my first race ever, at IRP last weekend. I put about 3 hrs. on the car. In the midwest, track time seems to be the cheapest part of racing these cars, but it leaves me paranoid as to how much time I can put on the engine before a rebuild is necessary. The car is much faster than I am... I'd like to change that, so I need seat time. I can go to G-man for $50 for a few hours, or do test days at $125 or so at various tracks. But putting 2 to 3 hours on the car for a test day is as much as 1/5 of the engine life, making the cost of a test day over $1000.

Parity for existing Pinto engines would be necessary if Zetecs were allowed in FC, you are all correct on that point. But, as an FC racer, I can say that I personally would welcome the CHOICE of changing to a longer lasting (by a huge margin) engine instead of my next rebuild. Allowing the rest of the chassis changes from the Pro would probably not be welcome.

Anyway, I doubt I solved any of life's mysteries with this post, but I thought some of you might want to know who is new to this class, why they were attracted to it, and if they would want a modern engine choice.

-Rob

[Raymond]

Your point is well said!!

I have been sitting back reading these posts and
thinking almost the same things!

I have even gone as far as consider racing in FS
with a Toyota 4AG motor, for a longer life motor choice!

And sorry, no offense intended,
but the FF just does not do it for me..
I want the wings..and more motor than that!

I'd say, take it from the new guys (or almost new)
FC is the class we want, but the pinto is not
the motor we want...

[carnut169]

Welcome to F2k.com Rob. As you now know, this is an addictive hobby.

I agree with you re the cost of engine time... it sucks. I am really thinking about a move to FS next year w/ a mc powerplant in my FC. I know ICP is working on a conversion package. That way you have more power with better reliability- only downside there is that you won't have many people to race against. Oh well. I think more folks would go that way if they saw it in action and heard the sweet sound of a GSXR 1100 at 10,000rpm....

[Bob Wright]

Sean- at the risk of continuing to stir the pot...If you went FS and you used a Zetec instead of the MC motor, what would it cost you?

1. Motor= $700 to $1000 for crated stock motor
2. Fuel pump= $50
3. Weber carb or carbs + manifold and direct ignition system= $1000
4. Frame fabrication for pre '98 car (you'd have to for the MC motor anyway) $?
5. Bodywork= $500
6. Add another $1000 for misc stuff, exhaust, and headachs I haven't thought through.

Total= $5000

Lets see, dual DCOE's in a stock Zetec- I'll bet thats in the ballpark of 180+HP (be careful of the LD200). FS means no restricting specs, so you can shop for the stuff anywhere and I'll bet its all "off the rack" parts. Not bad...

SO...why can't we think along these lines for the FC class and put a restrictor in a (single DCOE)carb on a stock Zetec motor and Yadda, Yadda, Yadda....

[Rick Kirchner]

One thing not considered much in all this debate. The trend in this country is for ever larger 4-cyl engines, and along with the size comes some things that are more easily done in bigger packages, like variable valve timing for instance. The FC class is based on 150 HP and the standard gearbox limits out at 200 ft-lbs. As the design of modern engines gets better, maintaining these "design" standards for FC means we need to go smaller with the motors or else the
restrictors and limiters might produce engines with lousy characteristics (not to mention the fact that as these engines get physically larger, the packaging issues in our cars get worse). Making the standard of the class a 2.3L without a lot of restrictions (ala' FSCCA) means upping the ante to at least 180HP, which means bigger gearboxes, uprights, brakes, and some consideration to how fast that package is capable of going in light of the level of crash safety involved. The smallest engines now offered by Ford/Mazda are 2L. Honda's smallest is a 1700 - with VTEC it puts out 147HP! Even Suzuki's smallest is a 2L. Realistically, a FF equivalent class ought to be running a 1.2-1.3L and a FC equivalent class a 1.6-1.8L. But, you'd have to source those engines in Europe or Asia - 'cause no one's buying them here.

A big question will be how tractable the bigger engines will be when restricted.

OBTW, the engine in the 2005 Focus is a 2L Duratec. The forum junkies say it's the same block as the 2.3L version, and that means it's still too damn big. Ford must have changed the tranny to accomodate the different bolt pattern.

[Raymond]

I'll add that the Toyota Celica has a 1.8L..in production..
the Scion makes a 1.5L...
and the good ole 4AGE is still arround...

all viable options....

[Curtis Boggs]

Originally posted by Thomas Copeland:
Curtis, I'm not blasting you here but I got a question: you say the anti-engine talk has kept potential new guys away. Away from what? Buying a pinto engine car or buying a Zetec engine car?
If Zetec is allowed into FC tomorrow I might as well park my 2000 VD pinto car and call the garbage man or goodwill truck to come and haul it away. What trophies am I going to win, what points will I be able to earn facing a Zetec car?

Thomas,

No I was referring to the talk about the pinto & 1600 kent.
These engines are a little pricy, .. can be a pain to keep up with, ... but I don't think it's as bad as some posts make it look. Most of the repair stuff I get in the shop is user error, .. Zetec or not, .. it's still broken.

I've had a few e-mails and phone calls by guys thinking about buying a FC or FF, .. they wanted to know if the engine is really as bad as the internet indicated.

This prompted by fear that these very discussions may be hurting the classes. we need these discussions, .. but I, . like everybody here, .. want to see open wheel racing grow, .. in whatever form it may take on.

Your second point regarding car value, .. VERY real concern.
If Zetec was allowed in tomorrow, .. pinto cars and 1600's for that matter would hit rock bottom in value.
I'd feel for a guy with a 2000 VanDiemen Pinto that went from $28,000 or more value to near nothing over night.

Plus, .. what happens when the Zetec series goes away?
Where will the new cars come from then????????????

Curtis

[Larry]

Yes, Curtis, please ask Ralph whether he is building new FFs the next time you see him! But ask the question properly--
1. Is the car designed for the Kent, or is it designed for the British FF (which is the Zetec car)
2. Would a "Kent" car be anything other than the Brit Zetec car?
3. What differences (actually, none) would there be between the Kent and Zetec chassis and suspension.

By all means, let's be accurate and stop the misinformation! From the information I have, Ralph hasn't produced a new Kent car for at least 4 years...and I get my info from the guys that build the cars--not the guys that sell them.

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products

[Steve Demeter]

This thread has been dragging on forever and accomplishing nothing except rehash the same issues over and over.

Facts are that FF has been having smaller fields.
There are a number of reaspns why and I do not think any of them has to do with what engine is in FC.

Facts are that FC is strong and what aint broke don't need fixing.

Facts are that while rather long in the tooth, the Pinto still provides reliable HP at one of the smallest costs per operating hour of any engine in SCCA, except for the SS, IT, and Touring classes.

Facts are that someone is always gonna want to change what is working to make it better, in their mind. That is why there is a push to put Ztec in FC.

Facts are that any time a new engine gets introduced into a class such as FC, it will eventaully take over no matter what restrictions are put on it, because that is what the top guys and the chassis builders will gravitate to. Witness water cooled SV's in FC 25 years ago, more recently the Toyota in FA.

Facts are that the only thing that can be done is to minimize the pain to the "current" engines and chassis.

[Curtis Boggs]

Originally posted by Larry:
Yes, Curtis, please ask Ralph whether he is building new FFs the next time you see him! But ask the question properly--
1. Is the car designed for the Kent, or is it designed for the British FF (which is the Zetec car)
2. Would a "Kent" car be anything other than the Brit Zetec car?
3. What differences (actually, none) would there be between the Kent and Zetec chassis and suspension.

By all means, let's be accurate and stop the misinformation! From the information I have, Ralph hasn't produced a new Kent car for at least 4 years...and I get my info from the guys that build the cars--not the guys that sell them.

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products

Well larry, .. since I work for the Cooper series, .. and see Ralph on a regular basis, .. and have asked him this question, ..

yes they have built several new Kent cars over the last four years, .. a few went to Canada, .. most are in the UK Kent series.

The difference is the kent car has a bolt on rear frame like a Pinto & US Zetec car, same chassis, .. the UK 1800 Zetec FF has a welded on rear frame.

Curtis

[Curtis Boggs]

[Raymond]

Originally posted by Steve Demeter:
.......Witness water cooled SV's in FC 25 years ago, more recently the Toyota in FA.....

Fact is that Toyota has been the engine manufacture for FA for 20 years now...
That's not to recent..

As it stands really..
If the new Ztec cars are supposed to run FC..
the FC won't be FC anymore...
As, if there are no more manufactures of Pinto FC cars,
they will go the way of the FF...
and that is not a bad thing..
just a change..

We all have to admit, no matter what we drive.
they are getting older, and support will get smaller,
and soon, it will be a classic series..

(as much as I love my MR2, the 4AG is not a current
engine, so the tuners don't care..
same will happen to the FC cars if the new FC cars are Ztech)

[Sean Maisey]

I am happy to see so much discussion on this topic today. I would like to take a shot at distilling todays comments...

1) Zetecs are so much faster that they would obsolete the Pinto cars.
2) The advantage of FI drivability makes it very difficult to equalize the cars. (inferred from Thomas's comments).
3) The Zetec (w/ECU wiring and FI) is too expensive for most people to convert.
4) Many people are dissatisfied with the Pinto motor and want other options.

I would like to make a modest proposal. I believe in my heart of hearts that the cars CAN AND WILL be equalized, and that the See Ya series is coming very very close. The problem with their series is that a couple of bigger Pro teams definitely swing the preparation/testing/driver talent pendulum their way so it is hard to judge.

What if I with more modest talent and means campaigned a 2002 spec Zetec (6/8" wheels, mustache style nose, FC spec rear wing) in the remaining SE Div Nationals with the same engine restrictions as the See Ya Series? It could be a very interesting parallel (and independant) test.

It could answer questions 1 and 2. Questions 3 & 4 are more a matter of economics. The bare sealed Zetec is $3500 from Quicksilver, so if we can legalize the Zetec for FC, I am certain that the conversion costs will drop like a rock...

Sean

[Steve Demeter]

Raymond,
Right on most counts, but as recently as 1990, the Swift DB-4 which was the hot car of the time, came new from Swift with a BDA, not a Toyota.

I think it was 91 or 92 that Toyota came on board.