Runoffs 2010 Elegibilty

[Richard Dziak]

Stu:

I will be present in the RMD in 2009.......I actually own a Phoenix F1000, and hopefully Sandia has a race again this year. Last year car counts were low, but they went on to sponsor the event.

I have 2007 Phoenix F1000 and have about $48,000 into the car. I understand the new Phoenix will be priced ready to race at about $52,000 or so. Contact Dustin over at Phoenix as he is the person in full charge there. He is a great young man and am sure will answer any questions.

I can attest that Phoenix built me one hell of a race car. It's much faster than I can even handle.

[glenn cooper]

OK, just did a fairly rough, not to the penny estimate of what it would take to have a converted '98 and later Van Diemen very similar to mine.
This estimate is derived from the fact that I purchased a somewhat tired FC for $14,000.

After selling off FC related bits and adding in the Novak kit, and accounting for system (oil, fuel, etc) upgrades to the point the car is at now...

I'm under 30k, and not by a few dollars either.

Roll your own from scratch and you will have to purchase/build things like a fuel cell/pump/regulator, calipers and rotors, dampers, A arms, rod ends, brake lines, steering wheel/shaft/rack, data acqusition, or in my case a very simple early Pi (1?) system, fire suppression system, belts, bodywork, water and oil cooling system, pedal assembly/master cyl's, ARB's/links, Fr & Rr wings, and about 100 other things large and small I can't quite get my head around right now.

I am sharing ALL info I have found out, through hard work, stupid mistakes, and financial F ups so that this class can grow. The guys who came before me have done the same thing, probably because like me they feel not only is it the right thing to do, but at the end of the day they want more cars out there. More cars ='s better racing. I guess in the end I'm just being selfish

I'm not of the belief that this class was intended to be a homebuilt type deal. As far as I can recall, it was initially intended to be a class that would lend itself to converting older FC's, that while great cars, were sitting around running regionals or supporting successive layers of dust in the garage.

The fact that a couple of guys freezing their collective asses off in Michigan one day got a call and decided to target the later version of Van Diemen's for a conversion kit settled it for me.

PLUS the fact that you can get on the phone RIGHT NOW, and actually purchase one of these kits is a pretty good incentive...

Pretty soon (or so I hear/hope) there will be kits available for earlier VD's, and that will lower the price even more as those donor cars are that much less expensive.

$6000 dampers? 4k dash? 80k cars (I've not heard of any, did I miss something)?
Sure, why not?
Although when viewed through the lens of the previous couple' a paragraphs, the question suddenly becomes - Why?

GC

[Jnovak]

Glenn has certainly proven that a converted Van Diemen is competitive.

Thanks ... Jay Novak

[jerry freeman]

I was one of the dumb asses that decided t build his car from scratch. I had an old super vee to rob parts from and a $100 junkyard motor. I still had roughly $12,000 in the car and I fabricated everything myself. I've since bought newer suspension, wheels and tires, motor, etc. and the total is about $20,000 without any data recording and old $100 shocks, etc. It can be done but you will still be a moving chicane. You have to have a lot of time to develope a new car and that is the best part of buying a '98 and up car and converting it. You can be competative for the price Gleen Cooer stated in the earlier post. This class was not intended for the home builder it was set up for conversions and new factory cars. But you don't have to spend $60,000 to $80,000 to be competative. I would recomend anyone on a small budget to convert a car. If you can afford a new car I would recomend the new Phoenix Race Works from Dustin Wright. He's a good guy that will help you with anything you need and his prices are the best you'll find.

Jerry

[Wren]

We had envisioned a budget for the car alone to hit the track at $20,000 by building everything we can (chassis, a-arms, uprights, all aluminum body panels and wings)and alternative low cost approaches to suspension and braking as opposed to penskes and wilwoods/brembos etc.

Knowing what some guys are selling parts like chassis and suspension bits for, you would do much better getting a job delivering pizzas for $15/hour and buying a chassis instead of putting the time into building one and then having it homologated. I expect the payoff might be equivalent to what little kids make putting together Nike Shoes. You will also be on the track much quicker and will likely be faster. The spares supplies and community knowledge about that car is priceless.

Converting an existing car is going to be the cheapest method to get on the track. You cannot make things like rodends and sphericals cheaper unless you are willing to put your car and your life at risk. Buying a working car guarantees you that you will have all of the dinky little parts that no one ever thinks of until they need them. Just buying AN fittings seems like it can bankrupt you some days. It's tough to save money on the little detail parts.

Converted cars have been the hot car to have so far. At the ARRC, Coop turned the fastest lap in his converted car and Justin won in a car that is a Piper FC converted to FB.

If you really want to build a car, I get it. It's a lot of fun, but the added stress level is enormous. Don't do it b/c you think it will be cheaper.

I think you could put together a Citation FB kit for less than $40k if you bargain hunt some and don't farm out much work. There are lots of good deals on used shocks that can be revalved to be competitive, I wouldn't spend $6k on shocks even if I was building a no-compromises car. AiM has some great dashboards available for under $1k. I don't know of anyone who has put their car in a windtunnel, if they have, it's a closely guarded secret.

The real cost comes in running them.

[Mike Devins]

Pretty soon (or so I hear/hope) there will be kits available for earlier VD's, and that will lower the price even more as those donor cars are that much less expensive.

Glenn, we have the first two kits just about completed and a third one in process for the RF90 - RF96, one will be my FB and the other is going to be Clark's DSR and the third one is not committed yet.

[RobLav]

Per Wren's note above, my new Citation FB kit will come in at around $30K. I scrounged around for all kinds of stuff and fabricated a lot myself. This price includes the dry sump system.

[4wheeldrift]

We see a used 2007 stohr for $57,000. Is this considered an inexpensive homebuider tube frame open wheel avg target price? Is this what is needed to get the class to grow and get more people to the track? I for 1 am a huge fan of the idea of this class
and the incredible support of other builders and racers is a tremendous asset to the growth of the class.

[Mike B]

We see a used 2007 stohr for $57,000. ... Is this what is needed to get the class to grow and get more people to the track?

As a matter of fact, yes it is. When we drafted the rules, the original intent was to give homebuilders & converters a place to run but before the first rule was put on paper we quickly realized that there aren't that many racers with the courage or fabrication talent to build or convert a car. For every homebuilt car that I know of, there were around seven $57,000 Stohrs sold. That is a great example of the market speaking.

[Wren]

We see a used 2007 stohr for $57,000. Is this considered an inexpensive homebuider tube frame open wheel avg target price? Is this what is needed to get the class to grow and get more people to the track? I for 1 am a huge fan of the idea of this class
and the incredible support of other builders and racers is a tremendous asset to the growth of the class.

$57k is certainly not cheap to me, but it is obviously not neccesary to spend that much either. Cooper showed that you can run an operation on a reasonable budget and be at the very pointy end of the field (won the sprints, 2nd at ARRC).

I still don't think that it is reasonable to expect that a class that is faster than FC to be as cheap as FV. Having a competitive car for $30k that is capable of the speeds these cars are going is great. They are only going to get faster.

Stohr NA has done a lot to get entries in this class. To get numbers up quickly, it was going to take a real manufacturer to put together cars as a full time job and they stepped up and did that. That amount of labor is never going to be inexpensive, but their price is reasonable for a fully assembled car. The class rules also leave a big place for guys in their garage to be competitive (top two steps of the podium at the ARRC). I may not agree with all of the rules in place right now, but I respect that they have struck a nice balance between guys at home and manufacturers.

[Richard Dziak]

I have a 2007 Phoenix F1K-07 that is in mint condition, expertly maintained and would consider selling it for $45,000 firm price, no reductions. Includes extra set of Kodiak polished wheels. Aim dash. Extra spockets, chain. The car has run flawlessly and I have only raced at Regional SCCA events. The engine was totally prepped by George Dean....oil changed after every race using 100% Amsoil products and Wix oil filters. Body and paint in perfect condition. According to the Aim dash, car has less than 900 miles on the car and less than 20 hours on this impeccable Suzuki GSXR 1000cc engine. Engine NEVER beaten up and carefully driven. Car has a clear 3m paint protection shield in keys areas of the car. This will one day be a an F1000 Classic. Designed by Dustin Wright, one of the best in the business as a young and up and coming Chassis engineer, race car builder.

The bottom line is, that this car could not be duplicated for the $45,000. It was #2 of the 2 production cars that Phoenix sold in 2007. It is extremely fast, and is quite intimidating for any driver. Won the Arizona Regional Championship for 2007-2008 and the RMD SCCA Regional Championship for 2008. The car has so much potential it is many times scary to drive, there is so much power here.

So if anyone is considering building from scratch, save time, and lots of headaches, this beauty is fully ready and wanting to race. With a good driver, which I am average, this Phoenix is a championship car.

The car may be seen at my personal website below.

[Lincspeed]

C Shaw wrote: Detroit needs to crash so that the pieces can be bought off and removed from Detroit and out from under the control of the thug unions, pimp financial institutions, and criminal politicians. The pieces need to put into the hands of those passionate about cars and passionate about creating rolling art work that stimulates the desire for consumers to buy.


Having worked over 30 years at GM with hundreds of engineers and designers, I can assure you they, and I were nothing if not passionate about our work. This comment and others in your posting show a marked lack of understanding of the American auto business and you express a disservice to those of us who devoted our creative energies to making high quality, desirous vehicles. There are many such individuals among this sportsracing community, like myself and Jay Novak.

I do applaud your enthusiasm for building some exciting race cars and hope that your plans will actually be realized - and be profitable - the biggest challenge, wether you are a cottage industry or GM.

Clark Lincoln
Retired Chief Designer, GM Design Staff

[Jnovak]

Clark, thank you for your comment. I could not have said it so well. I am saddened to read such trash from someone who claims to be an enthusiast & racing business man.

I also had a career of nearly 30 years at Ford & I am extremely proud of the huge number of passionate car enthusiasts I worked with at Ford, GM & Chrysler. I still work with many of these same people in racing.

I will certainly not defend every decision made by the auto business, but Mr. Shaw, you are totally misinformed & out of touch with what has happened to the auto industry.

Jay Novak
Retired Ford Motor Company Vehicle Dynamics Technical Specialist.

[Lee Stohr]

All I want to know is if GM gets $25billion, how about giving me one thousandth of one percent of that?
I could do a lot with $250,000

[Jnovak]

Me too Lee. I will make a couple of calls to see about it.

A very pitiful state of affairs but still not as bad as bailing out the Ponzi Scheming brokers and mortgage frauds who brought the economy to it's knees.

Thanks ... Jay

[CSHAW]

C Shaw wrote: Detroit needs to crash so that the pieces can be bought off and removed from Detroit and out from under the control of the thug unions, pimp financial institutions, and criminal politicians. The pieces need to put into the hands of those passionate about cars and passionate about creating rolling art work that stimulates the desire for consumers to buy.


Having worked over 30 years at GM with hundreds of engineers and designers, I can assure you they, and I were nothing if not passionate about our work. This comment and others in your posting show a marked lack of understanding of the American auto business and you express a disservice to those of us who devoted our creative energies to making high quality, desirous vehicles. There are many such individuals among this sportsracing community, like myself and Jay Novak.

I do applaud your enthusiasm for building some exciting race cars and hope that your plans will actually be realized - and be profitable - the biggest challenge, wether you are a cottage industry or GM.

Clark Lincoln
Retired Chief Designer, GM Design Staff

I do work in the automotive industry, have since 1987, and I do work for those in Detroit, and for the sake of the industry, those companies need to be broken into smaller pieces that compete against each other, that way pride does matter. The best cannot rise to the top and the worst cannot be cast out in the business model the way it is. This is why it needs to be stripped down, broken into smaller pieces and reformatted into competitive product focused companies.

The original concept of CTC was to consolidate design, prototype and pilot production into a streamlined product enthusiast driven package. This was showing some great success from 1992 but was reverted back to business as usual a few years after CTC was operational.

In every example of business that these companies embody are plagued with piss poor negotiating skills and bad business decisions. There is some pride, but there is also much more entitlement mentality that pollutes the workplaces that make up those corporations. Suppliers are constantly pissed on, MRP2 is managed to cost enhancing instead of cost savings extremes. They preach to buy American with respect to their end product, but then contract a contradictory amount of supply contracts to the freaking Chinese. In all their years of experience, Ford Motor Company has never learned how to make a door or window handle that does not come apart in the hand, Chrysler products are ridden with unreliable transmissions and unreliable computer management systems. GM in their entry level and mid level priced products, has completely missed the mark on what people are willing to pay for and the value for what they pay is lacking.

They demand that sub contractors be unionized and pay legacy costs but then as a sub contractor, if you are coming in at $1.66 per item, They will shut you down to go buy the stuff from the Chinese for $1.63 per item and not even question the sweat shop, non union, child labor, garbage raw materials, low tolerance, high defect, manufacturing operation they choose to do business with. Hell, if I did not have to deal with all the ancillary terms and conditions of the contract, I could beat the Chinese price with American workers, in American town and pay my workers a whole hell of a lot more than the Chinese labor would ever dream of being paid, and come in at $1.59, all while making an 11% greater profit to grow my company.

For the sake of the industry, it needs to be broken up and span of control must be tightened up into more streamlined and productive, smaller less centrally controlled companies. They are too freaking big and have their fingers in too many things in order to do any of them well. That is why they need to be broken up, so managers can manage and be responsible instead of being micromanaged and be a scapegoat.
It is for the sake of everyone that makes a living in that industry that it needs to be broken up into smaller more easy to manage operations that function from their own balance sheet instead of a commingled can of worms, robbing from Peter to pay Paul master company bound by promises and manipulation from outside sources.
It is the industry that has fed me, it is the main industry that I hope can continue to feed me, and to do so, it must survive, and to survive it needs to be broken into smaller pieces, so that it can grow.
I think you got me wrong or I was not clear in conveying my message. In any rate, I apologize if my intent was misunderstood of conveyed. I don’t want to buy foreign made cars but I do want value for what I spend. I also demand a fair deal in business dealings with automakers and related subcontractors that I do business with. All subdivisions and subsidiaries need to be broken off from parent companies and managed internally inside them. Each resulting company is responsible for choosing where they locate and what deals, or if they make deals with labor unions. The magic is to be seen in the results from competitive bidding and local responsibility of servicing contracts. Poor quality labor and executives can get fired, good quality labor and executives can rise based on the quality of their contribution.

Too many talented peoples work is being devalued by legacy tenured non caring, entitlement driven workers. All for one and one for all is bad business when many are dragging down the few.

That is what I mean by breaking it up and selling it for scrap. Talented people will recycle that scrap, remold it into profit producing, wage paying going concerns.
Dude, I am totally against throwing effort after foolishness.
C Shaw

[RussMcB]

Based on the number of cars that are on the track now and those that will be coming out to play next year does anyone have a good feeling about us making our 2.5 requirement during 2009?

So, Mike. Have we answered your question satisfactorily? :-).

[ghickman]

This thread has totaly run amuck....all this doom and gloom is wrong for this forum. Lets try and stay on point guys.

Lets focus on growing the class not spreading negativity....and no I'm not sticking my head in the sand....been there done that!

Gary Hickman

[Tony Moore]

I second that! I am contacting various regions for National Race Schedules. Many aren't posted yet or incomplete. We will be attending as many double nationals as possible plus well the June Sprints and ARRC 2009. It appears possible to attend 5 double nationals, possibly more. I'll post our tentitive schedule later this week as I get shedule information.

Tony Moore
Edge Engineering

This thread has totaly run amuck....all this doom and gloom is wrong for this forum. Lets try and stay on point guys.

Lets focus on growing the class not spreading negativity....and no I'm not sticking my head in the sand....been there done that!

Gary Hickman

[J Leonard]

There is a Speads RM07 for sale in Portugal for 21,000 euros. My wife suggested the big three auto guys should go talk to the oil companies about money. A few Speads for sale in the UK as well.

[glenn cooper]

Seems the least expensive way of getting the numbers up.
In SE I believe we have 3 in '09:
Early Jan @ Palm Beach, formerly Moroso,
April-ish @ VIR,
July 4 @ Roebling/Savannah

So that's 6, Sprints is 7,
The Glen is 8,
Rd Atl Nat (or 2?) is 9/10
Kershaw 11.

Might just be able to make a dozen races if the $'s hold out.

Russ, as I was typing my cost guestimate the other day, I was thinking the same thing -
Waaaaaaaaay off topic. Guilty!

Pretty interesting insight all around into the US auto industry. All along I thought it was a combination of unions and poor management that produced stuff I was not interested in buying, except for trucks that is.

GC

[Lincspeed]

Man would that be cool! A great escape from the long cold winter in Michigan - and unlike Gingerman in April, probably no snow... What'd you think Mike? Can we fit two cars in one of your trailers??

Clark

[GT1Vette]

It's out on the SEDIV website (www.sedivracing.org), but here's the 2009 National schedule for our part of the country:

Jan 3-5 - PBIR (Moroso) Double (and yes, that's Saturday-Monday!)
Jan 10-11 - Sebring
Mar 7-8 - Roebling Road
Mar 21-22 - Road Atlanta
Apr 17-19 - VIR Double
May 2-3 - Daytona
May 30-31 - Road Atlanta
Jul 3-5 - Roebling Road Double
Aug 15-16 - CMP (Kershaw)
Nov 6-8 - ARRC by GRM at Road Atlanta

Oh wait, that last one's not a National but it IS the National Championship event for FB!

[Mike Devins]

FYI - you can have a brand new Speads for 40-45k race ready.

[10rmotor]

Pretty interesting insight all around into the US auto industry. All along I thought it was a combination of unions and poor management that produced stuff I was not interested in buying, except for trucks that is.

GC

I dunno Glenn, I sure like my '05 corvette. Actually, I sure liked all three of my 'vettes, and GMCs, and '68 ElCamino.......

[jerry freeman]

Butch,

I want to start running Nationals but I still need 2 regionals to get a national license. There aren't any double regionals except in Palm Beach before the Nationals start. That ain't an option. Is there anyway I could run the double school at Roebling or the SARRC in Atlanta and get some kind of waiver? If not then there's basically no chance to help the FB numbers till the year is over and by then I may not have a car or money left to run. What are my options? I ran 2 regionals, a TT, and a drivers school for testing last year but that doesn't get me a national license. Sime help would be much appreciated. I just want to help the class if I can.

Jerry

[GT1Vette]

Jerry,

Call Toni Creighton, the Area 12 Licensing Steward. Her e-mail and phone number are listed on the SEDIV website (http://www.sedivracing.org/2008SEDivOfficials.html). She will be able to explain your options and/or grant a waiver for your National license.

BK

[glenn cooper]

But I really like my '93 RX7 Mazda-ratti. Exotic, timeless looks, very rare/not many imported, 400HP at single digit boost levels and pump gas, 550 w/ a push of a button and 100 oct unld.

Bottom line - I guess I just prefer Rice to BBQ!

PS Started w/ American muscle back in the late 70's, but once I railed a turn in something affordable (to my motorcycle mechanic mid 80's pay) and sporty, all bets were off!

No offense intended

GC

[10rmotor]

Glenn, none taken. Different strokes for different folks

[Richard Dziak]

Here's the 2009 Race schedule for the Rocky Mountain Division SCCA
as posted as of today 11-20-2008

All dates for 2009.....................

April 4/5 DS/R HPR (not a DS/R/R) (PDX/TT Sunday only)
April 18/19 N/N PMP
May 2/3 R/R HPR (PDX/TT)
May 23/24 R/R PPIR (PDX/TT)
June 20/21 R/R MMP (PDX/TT)
July 4/5 N/N HPR
July 25/26 DS/R/R LaJ (PDX/TT Sunday only)
Aug 8/9 N/N MMP
Aug 22/23 R/R HPR (PDX/TT)
Sept 5/6 N/N HPR
Oct 10/11 R/Enduro PMP (PDX/TT)
Oct 24/25 R/R HPR (PDX/TT)

HPR=New race track HIGH PLAINS RACEWAY...east of Denver by 70 miles
PMP=Pueblo Motorsports Park...Pueblo, Colorado
PPIR-Pikes Peak International Raceway...Fountain, Colo....south of Co. Springs...now reopened...
MMP=Miller Motorsports Park...Draper, Utah...Sowest of Salt Lake City
LaJ=LaJunta Raceway.....LaJunta, Colorado.....southeastern Colorado

Total= 8 National Races over 4 weekends
Total=14 Regional events

NO RACE SCHEDULED FOR SANDIA MOTORPLEX, ALBUQUERQUE,NM in 2009

[Richard Dziak]

Here is the 2009 Racing Schedule for the ARIZONA REGION SCCA as of 11-20-2009.............................................. .



Arizona Region 2009 Calendar of Events

• Jan 16-19, 2009
  Double National /Restricted Regional
  Phoenix International Raceway (PIR)
• Feb 14-15, 2009
  Double Regional
  PIR
• Mar 21-22, 2009
  Double Regional / PCH Charity Event
  PIR
• Apr 4-5, 2009
  Double Regional
  Firebird International Raceway (FIR)
• Sept. 25-27, 2009
  Double Drivers School/Regional
  PIR
• Nov. 7-8, 2009
  Double Regional
  FIR
• Dec. 5-6, 2009
  Double Regional
  PIR

Total=2 National Events over 1 weekend
Total=11 Regional Events

[Chris McNitt]

Contribution to this thread:
I'm currently trying to decide where I will race my new (Sean's old) f1000, do I run locally to boost local support, or do I chase the bigger races (like the june sprints, ARRC, etc), which helps more?? The bigger races cost more but are more fun and helps car count at the races that more people pay attention to.

Real reason for posting:
Glenn, drive a new Z06, you'll throw rocks at rice burners once you do.....

[ghickman]

Chris...you want to hit as many Double Nationals as possible to get the car count up.

Here's our schedule. We'll be out your way twice.

Edge Engineering 2009 National Race Shedule
JAN 16-19 N/N PIR,Phoenix
FEB 21-22 N/R WSIR,Willow Springs Note Nationa/Regional
MAR 6-8 N/N Texas World Speedway
MAR 14-16 N/N Thunderhill,SF Region
APR 3-5 N/N Buttonwillow
APR 18-19 N/N Pueblo Motorsports Park,Pueblo
APR 24-26 N/N Pacific Raceway, NW Montana Region
MAY 1-3 N/N Texas Motor Speedway
JUN 19-21 N June Sprints,Road America
JUL 4-5 N/N High Plains Raceway, Rocky Mtn Div
AUG 8-9 N/N Miller Motorsports Park, Rocky Mtn Div
SEP 5-6 N/N High Plains Raceway, Rocky Mtn Div
NOV 6-8 ARRC

Gary Hickman

[rickb99]

We will be attending as many double nationals as possible....Tony Moore Edge Engineering

Tony, if that's your goal, watch the schedules when they come out up here. Oregon region and the Northwest Region. Assuming similar to past years, you can do a Double National at Pacific Raceway and lay over the rig for a week then do the Rose Cup National at Portland.

Last year we had Oberndorf, Taylor and Belling running in FB. Assuming all is well, they should return in 2009 and perhaps a 4th car.

[Chris McNitt]

Thanks Gary,
See you in March!

[Jnovak]

Good luck with your new car Chris. Hope to see you at a race or 2.

Thanks ... Jay

[glenn cooper]

What I really meant was the stuff from Detroit that I lusted, I couldn't afford, AND go racing concurrently!

Z06 as bad ass as it is ain't NOTHIN' to FB, on this I think we all can agree.

GC

[Chris McNitt]

Agreed

Hi jay, I'm sure I'll see you soon, I'm going to make as many national events as I can in 2009