What are instructors looking for from students at driver's school?

[Jerry Santucci 33]

Hey Guys..
Oh2Windy (Jamie Cole) has a nice thread going on "OK, Whatelse" wanting help on what he needs to take to driver's school. this got me to thinking about my drivers school and what i learned there. and, what i learned from teaching at a drivers school. i think that teaching at a school taught me more about what instructors are looking for in a student. when you go to learn at a school you are so overwhelmed by it all. and even though the instructors are trying their best to get their point across, you don't get all of what they are looking for.
soooooooooooooo, to you "instructors" out there. what are you looking for from your student? what do you want to see? what DON'T you want to see? what attitude are you looking for? what attitude DON'T you want to see.......
this way Jamie, and "others" going through this might have some insight as to what "you" want......
having only taught at one school (so far) being a Grasshopper, I bow to the masters........

soooooooooooo, what ya say?

[Keith Carter]

I'm not an instructor nor have I ever been, but I would think that first and foremost an instructor would want to see his student not do anything stupid that would endanger himself, fellow drivers, or the track workers. This would include things like the following:

- Watch the corner flags! They are used to keep you safe!

- Watch your mirrors. You don't have to be pre-occupied with them, just be conscious of who is around you especially if you're on the track with a faster car class.

- Maintain a decent speed. I've seen some drivers on the track that are driving slow enough to actually be a MAJOR hazard.

- Use signals (hand signals or head nods). Such as (point people by when needed or give the flagman a nod when he addresses you).

- When pointing someone by, STAY ON YOUR LINE. This happens far too many times that I've seen. When pointing someone by on your right, STAY ON YOUR LEFT!

- Listen to what your instructors and steward say and ask questions if you don't understand something. Now is not the time to try and be Mr Racing Superstar and ask if you don't get it. That is why you're there.

- Don't pass under yellow for any reason (unless of course the car you are going by is the one that spun out).

- Be prepared.

[Charles Warner]

Keith touched on the main issue, but almost as an afterthought. Having been the Chief Instructor for our region for several years IMO the greatest factor in a successful school is preparation. Preparation of both driver and car.

First of all, don't bring a car to a school that will not last the school. Full blown, highly strung pure racing cars are NOT good candidates. The car will undergo at least 3 hours (hopefully more) of running. You will have NO time to work on it between your sessions as you should be talking with your instructor. It should start immediately each time it is asked to. It should not need a lot of TLC to keep running, and should not be an extremely high performance car. Coming to a school in an atlantic or a GT-1 vette is, IMO, not appropriate. If you bring a car that needs attention, bring the attendants. There is nothing less conducive to teaching/learning as when I go to find my student and he is sweating away changing his tires or under his car changing a starter, getting his suit all grimy and not concentrating on the school. If you don't have a car that will easily do the school then borrow one or rent one.

Personal preparation isn't a matter of reading seventy-eleven books on how to drive a race car. First of all, read the GCR and appropriate sections of the others car-specific regs. Secondly, make a list of all the required items and GET THEM. Safety gear, logbooks, regs, and your entry form and Novice Permit. Showing up without anything that is required is just not on! Read (study!) the event's sups!!!! Read (study!!!!!!!) the GCR as far as anything that applies to driving. Know the procedures. Don't just know where to look. KNOW THEM! You will (should) be required to demonstrate your knowledge through a test. That test should be a no-brainer if you have studied. Know what to expect from the weekend. Call the Chief Instructor (at a reasonable hour) and ask for his advice as to what to expect.

SHOW UP ON TIME. Many schools have a classroom session on Friday evening. As most students don't live within a short drive of the track, arrange to take Friday OFF! That way you can make any last minute adjustments (everything should already be loaded and ready anyway) and drive to the track, check into the motel, and get to the classroom session EARLY. Bring a good attitude and be prepared. Don't expect the Chief Instructor to waive your classroom session because you are a good driver and had to work late. Bollocks!

Do NOT expect the Chief Steward and Chief Instructor to waive your second school based on your extensive autocross experience or the fact that you are a hot shoe at the local Porchy club events. Expecting this is the height of arrogance. (BTW, for those instructors listening, don't tell your students that you are sure they'll be waived because the Chief Instructor is your friend. It depends on the Chief Steward as well.) If you think you have the experience then contact the Chief Instructor BEFORE the school and submit your proof os experience. This is not something that should be done at the event.

The SCCA workers are putting on this school for you. The least you can do is show the respect for them by showing up early, prepared, and with a good attitude. Realize this is a serious event and approach it as such. The rest of the stuff you can get from your instructor.

[Paul Derov]

Great thread Jerry.

I strongly agree with with the preparation comments. I've instructed at a few schools in the last few years and a few in the 70's. The recent ones have been generally more challenging for the instructors, IMO because of the larger disparity of preparation between the prepared and unprepared. The best come completely prepared, ready and eager to go (like Jerry at his first school) and for others the school seems to be an afterthought or last minute decision.

Since we are primarily talking about formula car drivers here, I would stongly advise new drivers to actually drive the car they are bringing to the school before they come to the school. Solo events, car club time trials, and the rest are generally available to anyone with a car and helmet. It gives you the opportunity to check out how you fit in the car, how the car shifts, and how it feels to drive a formula car. This is particularly important if you've never driven a racing car before. I've had an experience recently where we (instructors) spent time Saturday after classes were over trying to fit the driver to his car so he could get out on the track. Also had drivers who were completely unfamiliar with shifting - and dog boxes take a bit of getting used to.

Also agree with the idea of bringing a manageable, reliable car to school. I would further add my opinion that in formula cars the best school cars are FVs or CF/FFs. For a completely new driver, coming to your first school with a new FC or FA is probably not a great idea. The learning curve in these cars will usually be way too steep for a completely inexperienced driver. No statistics available, but I don't remember many FV or CF/FF drivers not getting through their school. A much higher percentage of the few FC and FA drivers we get don't finish or get signed off for one reason or another. And yes, although we primarily are looking for smooth and safe driving, showing some speed is necessary. Much as we hate to send drivers home without signing off, someone 30 seconds off the pace of an average regional car time is just going to be a mobile chicane in their first race.

[D.T. Benner]

As one fellow drivers school instructor said to the assembled multitude-"one of the reasons we instructors come out here for FREE is to see if we think you will be people we would share the track with without to much fear for our OWN wellbeing!"

[Charles Warner]

The idea of getting driving experience in your formula car prior to attending the school is an excellent idea which will make the experience of drivers school much better for the reasons stated. It is something that should be added to the sups for every school and even presented in an article for SportsCar.

[Chester Carter]

Every spring we competitors show up at driving school giving up at least one work day and a weekend that could be better spent finishing our annual refresh to the cars. I noted that almost all the reasons above have occured during my years of instruction. I have felt that almost always we " instructer,and student" accomplish more if the student has rented a car. At this point in their career "arriving and driving" is best. I know the car will be fitted, fueled and ready if from a competent company such as Larry Ocha's. As for why we do it I think to some extent we are trying to put something back into the sport. Some of us do it to get more track time and instruct. ok too. As for myself I have observed a change in the attitude and civility in the sport that I have been involved with now for over forty years. Somehow these competitors managed to ignore or perhaps were not mentored during their formative period. I refer to them as the lords of the flies, after the novel of the same name. Lacking supervision and guidance they made their own set of rules. If giving up a long weekend is the price for preventing at least three new students from falling into this abyss it is time well spent. In addition I would like to add that it is very gratifying to mentor several new drivers from abject terror on friday to enthusiastic ear to ear grins on sunday afternoon. See you in the spring Chester Carter SF region.

[EYERACE]

instructors wish to see: that you learn the racing line and then stay on it -- that you learn the numbers of the corners so we can talk like we're all on the same page -- that you seem to pay a lot of attention during station wagon tours and not run your mouth a lot telling us all the cool past stuff you've done or what others have done or what some F1 person is up to or just talk a lot of racing theory or other general BS like what you're going to do to your car later to fix it up even faster when you're supposed to be concentrating on something at hand -- wish to see your lap times improve a little on the second day -- wish to see you wave to the corner workers on the cool down lap -- to see to wave to the corner workers on the first lap out to acknowledge that you see all the stations -- wish to see you draw on a sheet of paper various corners and then diagram the line through said corner -- wish to see you finish the weekend in the car rather than on the trailer prematurely -- wish to see you not try to start drafting right away -- wish to not see you dump drafting -- wish to see you give others racing room in the corners -- wish to hear the engine sound like you're shifting up or down at the right time and with no big blips -- wish to see you take the driver's suit off during the day rather than wear it constantly -- wish to see you with your eyes closed doing a lap in you mind -- wish to hear you tell us what gear you're in at various points on the track -- wish to hear in what gear and what your rpm is at a specific reference point on the track

[DanW]

(lurk mode off)

Ladies and Gents,

Thanks so much for putting the advice in here. It helps us grasshoppers understand what to expect.

(returning to lurk mode)

[JHaydon]

"When you teach, you learn twice." That's why I do it. That, and the satisfaction of watching someone who can barely find the line at 30mph on Saturday morning developing into the driver I hope I can keep up with the next day.

Attitude is very important.
Be open to instruction. Don't ignore your instructor or think you know better than he does. You might, but humor him. You might learn something anyway.

A school is for learning, not for winning. There are no talent scouts at driver's schools. And being the fastest in your group means nothing when you're driving a GT-1 in a group of ITB cars.

Whenever a student makes a remark about keeping someone else behind him, defending his line, or intimidating another driver, that's a big red mark next to his name. It's bad enough when people with experience screw around like that; there's no excuse for a student to do that to other students.

As everyone else said, preparation is critical. It's too bad we only learn that lesson after we go through a school or two.

The items Keith outlined are the items we actually use to grade students.

[Don Denomme]

As a past Chief Instructor and present instructor, I can add little other than most of my fellow instructors look for consistency more than raw speed. Even if you take a corner wrong, if you do it consitently, we can correct you. If you're all over the place, it's harder to correct. Consistency also means predictability. As someone said earlier, we have to feel comfortable with you on the track. The more consistent (predictable) you are the easier it is to race with you.

We also take into account the potential of your car. Regardless of lap times, we have a good sense of what your particular car is capable of and know if your getting the best out of what you have to work with. All instructors have seen fast drivers who were not signed-off and average lap time drivers who got signed-off.

We also look for "One Track Wonders". A driver who has competed with a number of other clubs at the same track may look good there, but may be totally lost at a new track. I've often not signed-off a driver who have never driven on another track and suggested that they take another school at another track. This may not be that easy for some drivers to do. Each area has its own issues.

Bottom line is, don't get too stressed. Try and take it all in as it comes. Good luck and have fun.

Don

[Purple Frog]

What I'm looking for in a student is one who leaves a crisp $50 bill taped to the front of a new 52" plasma TV when they have sent it to my race shop. Of course, large gift certificates to Hoosier are not rejected either.

Seriously, a lot of great points have been hit on this thread. Bottom line: "As an instructor am I willing to sign off that student and then go out and race on the same track with him/her?"

As a footnote... I have had students that during drivers school have decided on their own that "other sports beckon." I have great respect for their maturity.

OBTW, I have also seen the disasterous results of "social promotion." Luckily I watched it in my mirrors (and not in front of my nose) going into T4 at Roebling about 3 years ago.

[Churchill]

wonderful thread...

I've served as the Safety Marshall & Grid Marshall for our Chapter of the BMWCCA for some time, and although our schools are less rigid and designed around street cars as opposed to racecars, SO MUCH of the same applies.

I've booted students who showed up without required equipment and thought that their stuff was "close enough" and it "worked before." **punt**

I've booted INSTRUCTORS, for the same. (black listed one last year, he is unlikely to be working any CCA events out here for some time). **puntx2**

Appropriate and adequate preparation yields the appropriate attitude, I really do believe that. if you've put time into being prepared you will not squander your investment. if you've thrown it together, you won't care if you don't learn. i've dropped out of schools only a few weeks in advance because the car wasn't ready far enough ahead of time for a proper shake-down, and it meant no time to be properly prepared on the other fronts.

the same is true when cars come to the grid. it takes me a matter of SECONDS to tell who did and didn't come prepared and with the right attitude.

This discussion can sometimes feel like deja-vu all over again but its essentiality to safety and a positive experience is such that its never a "re-post"

thanks for the contributions to the discussions. and yes, I have found that large gift-certificates to tire-retailers tend to work miracles on instructors....

[Jerry Santucci 33]

Hey Guys...
Thank you one and all for your Great Posts... a lot of very good information written here! My suggestion for anyone who will be going to driver's school soon, or anyone who would like to someday go to driver's school, would be to print out this thread along with the thread Oh2windy made called "OK, what else". this way, you will know what to bring to school, and what the instructors expect from you when you get there. also, EVERY point listed is important, reread until you get the drift of what the instructors were trying to get across to you. (if you have to, come out of "lurk mode" and ask again for clarifacation, please do so. and remember, we "all" were in "lurk mode" once. )
some of the big points that i seen from behind the scenes at drivers school were:
1) KNOW the flags BEFORE you get to the school. You should know your way around the GCR too, but no excuse for not knowing the flags.
2) Have a good, respectful, happy attitude! (leave your type A personalty at home), listen with your ears, not your mouth.
3) after every session there is a driver's meeting, it is YOUR responsibly to know when and where that is - BE THERE ON TIME. (this is why you should have someone there with you /and a well prepared car. your instructor will get a lot of grief from the head instructor about "why" you are not at the drivers meeting. and, having problems with your car doesn't fly!)
4) Stay on line when being lapped.
5) if you get a chance to pass/lap someone - DO IT! show that you want to race. a lot of you are "very" use to lapping/fun days at the track, or are coming from schools that drill into you the "follow the leader" technique. But, your SCCA instructors want to see if you can RACE with them. what you will do in a pack of cars, and if you will try to pass someone. Example: you are in a FF and a student in a FA attempts to pass you and locks up his tires moving towards the outside of the track, leaving the inside wide open, TAKE IT! Yes the FA driver will just pass you back on the strait, BUT, your instructor will see you got the gonads to make a pass. if you don't, he might think "what is he waiting for?" he might think you are too timid and not willing to mix it up. or, if there is a local yellow on one corner, still be "racey" on the rest of the track. do not think "oh, there goes my lap time so i might as well cool it. another would be, you are coming up on some slower FV's and they leave the line wide open for you to pass them in the corner, but you think it would be "nicer" if you passed them on the straight. again, this would be thought of as timid....... BELIEVE me to this one.... WARNING! temper all of the above with common sense, your instructors do not want you to get in over your head and crash out!
6) wave to the corner workers on your cool down lap - while still being very careful and mindful that accidents DO happen on cool down laps. at the school that i instructed at the wind chill was in the teens. the corner workers volunteered to stand there the whole day. (a very special breed of people) the thing that corner workers live for is recognition from the drivers...... at school -- that be you! Soooo buckwheat - WAVE! Make sure you thanks "all" of the people who helped you, including your instructor!
Last (yeah, I know -- about time ) post on this site how you did, what you thought and your ups and downs....... remember -- you are grasshopper! And there are a lot of "want to be" grasshoppers out there that are looking up to you! they want to hear how you did and, the rest of us Grasshoppers want to know too - even the masters like Dave W and the Frog want to know how you did....
enjoy the ride!

[rbarna]

can't find the Oh2windy post... search says no user by that name

[Keith Carter]

can't find the Oh2windy post... search says no user by that name

Try: Oh2winindy