Getting Started

[1990whiteg60]

It looks like just about everyone has the same question that I have, but I would still like some input from you guys, because some of the questions that I have I haven't been able to find the answers to on here.

First a little background about myself. I raced gokarts for 10 years racing ovals and I always knew that I wanted to take my racing career further, but I have always had to fund the majority of my racing so that has been very difficult to do. I have raced in ITB for the last four years with all top 5 finishes this year with fairly large class sizes each race. (1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 4 and 5) Like everyone I would love to turn racing into a career some day if at all possible and I am actively looking for ways now to approach potential sponsors and I am going to try and get some assistance with the upcoming season. Like most people I'm just looking for an opportunity to prove myself.

I have been doing a lot of research on the different formula classes available and it looks like Formula Ford has one of the highest amount of entries currently and based on the information I have found it looks like a large number of Pro drives have raced in FF at one point and it has helped with the progression of their careers. I have also consdered the skip barber national series, but I'm not sure how much if any advantage that would have over FF if any.

The main question that I have is what is the best way to get started in FF and is buying a used setup a practical way to get started and still have the ability to be competitive? What is the average startup cost associated with FF as far as purchasing a car and the appropriate spares? What is the average maintenance cost throughout the year, ie. new engine every season, etc? I need to get some numbers together and then I'm going to see what I can come up with from there. If necessary I may have to fund another season myself so I am also saving as much as possible if that becomes a necessity since I have never had much luck getting sponsors or knowing the right approach. I'm not very good at the whole asking for money part.

Thanks for any and all help.

[Rick Kirchner]

I think virtyally every answer you are looking for is available by painfully reading back thru the getting started archives. A couple of years ago as this site was really picking up steam there were some long posts on costs, etc (they might also be under general FF, etc)

Spend a weekend reading through all that stuff and you'll probably have a few more, but different and much more specific questions.

[Purple Frog]

Ah... the "C" word. Competitive.

Figuring you already own tools, and a trailer and tow vehicle to get that IT car around...
SCCA national racing at a competitive level...
Minimum $75K the first year. That's $50K for car and spares and tools you don't own.
$25K to run it. Tires, fuel, entries, motels, engine refreshes, etc.

$25K the next year, at least.

And you will be spending less than most nationally competitive FF drivers.

[Camadella]

I hate to be a rain maker, but, let's discuss how many actually paid drivers, of any type, there are in the WORLD.

F1 has maybe 20
ChampCar has maybe 10 (the others PAY to drive)
IRL, about the same
NASCAR NC, fewer than the 43 cars that start every week.

I'm sure there are paid drivers in other categories and classes, and in, as our British friends would call them, "lesser formulae".

However, there are still probably less than a couple of hundred people who actually get paid money to do what we pay money do do every week. Of those, how many turn over every year - in other words, how many job openings are there? 20? How many amateur (and professional unpaid) drivers are there? Thousands. Tens of thousands. If you do the math, you have to be VERY special (and likely, very lucky) to make it to the top.

Racing is not unique in this category. How many amateur golfers are there? Millions. How many professional golfers, people who make a living playing golf? Hundreds, on the outside, and probably not that many. The same is true of nearly every other sport you can think of.

If you have what it takes, try reading "Drive to Win" by Carroll Smith - the road to success almost always passes through England.

In the mean time, race a Formula Ford or an F2000. The F2000 series in the northeast is probably the most competitive open-wheel racing in the USA right now. But you can count on spending a lot of money to do either.

As for sponsors, virtually anyone willing to put up any money to sponsor a racing car (or "moving billboard") is going to be concerned about how many people see his product. In SCCA amateur racing, that number is essentially zero. So the ROI would not be very good for the sponsor, to say the least. What's attractive about NASCAR to a sponsor is the fact that millions of people see his name go by on TV. Not too many good business people are interested in sponsoring a car that no one will see on TV, and even worse, you have to be a member of the SCCA even to go watch the races - many, many of our races aren't even open to the public!

Sorry, again, to rain on your parade...

[1990whiteg60]

Thanks for your input guys. I'm still reading as much as possible on here and other boards and trying to get as much about formula racing and the best route to take as possible.

Camadella, I have thought many times most of what you said and realize that it's a very low percentage possibility, but if nothing else I want to find a way to race as much as possible. Many of the points you have made about sponsors and the potential for their ad's to be seen have been the main reason why I haven't really even attempted to get sponsorship because I have a hard time trying to convince myself that it would be a good opportunity for them. The main reason I am considering making an effort to get sponsors this season is because with racing nationally is the potential of qualifying for the runoffs and having their Ad seen on the speed channel, that's if I even qualify. More people will see the moving billboard of my trailer with the sponsors name on it than people will actually see it on the car.

So out of the $50K in startup costs are there a lot more costs associated with getting a F2000 over a FF if that is the better route to take? I have taken a look at the numbers and it appears that FF has one of the highest entries counts in SCCA nationals, but there may be other series that may be a better option also that I don't know about yet. Right now it looks like a Swift is the way to go, what other things should I take into consideration when buying a car and what other spares should I look for? Once I have made my final decision I'm planning on trying to find someone with a well prepared car with a large spares package and buying it because that appears to be the best way to go.

I'm sure you all are or were a young kid once that thought they have some sort of ability and wanted to see how far they could take it, so I appreciate your feedback and any additional input you have.

[Stan Clayton]

Shawn, I don't see anything in your posts to indicate what your professional racing goal is. Is it F1, Nascar, or something in between? The current trend in F1 is to hire very young drivers (18-20) fresh from British F3 or GP2. At 23 and with no formula car experience, you are already over the hill. My son Rennie won the Formula Atlantic Triple Crown at about that age several years ago, and Minardi were willing to give him a one-day test...for $250,000 cash and verifiable contracts in-hand for $5-million in sponsorship. One Indy car team was interested...then along came another driver who could bring more sponsorship money and the ride evaporated. No Champ car team would even return our phone calls. One start-up Nascar team was mildly interested, but they never secured the primary sponsor they were hoping for and that fell apart. It's a tough row to hoe.

Sponsorship in FF? Go to a race and ask each FF driver what sponsorship package they have. If even one has anything other than personal funds, family help or the normal contingency packages available to pretty much any reasonably well known Club driver, I will be shocked. Even in Pro Atlantics, Pro Mazda, F-BMW it is nearly ALL family money or daddy's business paying the bills. Three hundred thousand to nearly a million is the going rate for a ride in one of these series (and you are over the age limit for F-BMW). Do you have those resources available? If not, and you are not prepared to climb the Nascar ladder, then buy yourself an FF and commence a lifetime's hobby. The class desperately needs fired-up young talent!

Stan

[1990whiteg60]

Stan, my goal is that I would like to race either F1 or Champ car. I realize that I'm pretty much too old and that happening is near impossible, but that has always been what I wanted to do. The problem is that I have always had to depend on my own limited resources. I know there are some drivers in both Champ car and F1 that are at least 10 years older than I am, so I'm trying to convince myself that there is still a small remote possibility. In the end as long as I am able to race and progress with the sport I will be happy even if it means I never make it to either of those series.

As far as sponsors go in club racing I know that they are mostly a friend of the family or daddy's business, but there has to be others out there with some extra money in there advertising budget that they are willing to spend on something more fun than a billboard on a highway. I know its a real long shot and as you said I will probably be stuck forever as a club racer, but it's worth a shot and I figure there has to be at least a few people out there that have found ways to get help with their racing efforts.

[dc]

Yes, but those 33 year old drivers in ChampCar and F1 started at the age of 7 and not as a high school or college graduate.


I dream of taking up the guitar and playing in a rock band, but at my age, my dream isn't necessary a reasonable goal, considering I have never owned a guitar in my life. It's not to say that I can't start tomorrow and be a stellar guitarist in time, but at this point in the timeline, it's a much better hobby to acquire than a profession.

They say that had Paul Newman started racing at a much younger age, he could have been a World Champion many times over. He started at the age of 44 and did so with a bank account that allowed him to drive almost anything he wanted. He was only able to do it as a very expensive hobby.

Lewis Hamilton was signed to the McLaren Junior developmental team at the ripe old age of 14 and is currently battling for the F1 World Championship—one year younger than you are today.

I don't think anyone is trying to shoot down your dreams or future plans, but the pragmatic reality is that unless your last name is Unser, Andretti, Penske or Foyt, the odds on getting struck by lightning are greater than progressing into the professional ranks starting at such an advanced age.




There are a handful of guys who have rolled through these forums over the years—and a few of them still reside here—who have more talent and ability than I'll ever see. There are guys who blitzed through the open wheel ladder classes in the US, winning everything in sight, only to never be heard from again in the racing world. It takes a perfect storm and all of the planets in alignment for a racer to make it to "the show" in his chosen form of racing. Not that anyone is trying to talk you out of attempting to get some place special, but it helps to be realistic about your chances.






Nice screen name, too. Corrado? So you're already used to working on things that break a lot, I see...

[Stan Clayton]

Shawn, if you are serious about getting an F1 drive...and not just indulging in a day dream during a quiet day at work, here's a realistic plan:

1. Sell your IT car and everything else you own to raise $100K, quit your job and move to England. Tell NO ONE in the UK that you drove tin tops...and I mean NO ONE! Just tell them you've been driving karts for 10 years.

2. Hit every team contesting the British Formula Ford Championship for a ride. After talking with all of them and forming an opinion about which ones have the smarts, equipment and drive to win the FF Festival, arrange to test with 2 or 3 of your favorites. Be aware that they will be able to pick from a large and talented driver pool. I imagine (hope?) one can run a season of British FF for about $75k. That leaves $25k to live on for a year.

3. If you finish in the top three of the 100+ drivers, you'll get a serious look at from some of the F3 teams. If your FF season is progressing well, you'll need to start lining up $500k to $600k to bring to an F3 team, because AFAIK there are no 'scholarship' rides in F3.

4. Hone your sponsorship raising skills while in F3. If you place in the top 3 for the season you'll get a serious look at from some GP2 teams, but they will expect you to bring a million or so in sponsorship.

5. If you make it this far you will have one, maybe two years to win the GP2 Championship or no F1 team will even look at you unless you can bring at least $5-million in sponsorship money. FYI, in recent years only the Champion from GP2 is getting a serious test in F1 unless there is some really outstanding reason why they didn't win the points title. There are too may competing series cranking out gifted drivers to look beyond to top rung for F1 teams...F3, F-3000 variants, F-Nippon, Champcar, etc.

All the best!

Stan

[Bob Wright]

You can buy a FF or FC used and older quite cheap-race it locally in SCCA regionals or nationals and find out very quickly how good you really are. There are some drivers out there in amateur land racing 25 yr old FF's (Mike Rand comes quickly to mind but he's not the only one) who will teach you a thing or two about how to race. You've already raced IT, so you know the general drill; formula cars are easier to maintain and cheaper to drive in the end- and in my opinion way more fun. Just take a deep breath and buy one. There are a lot of people on this forum who will take the time to identify a good car and help you.

How to afford it....if you're truly hooked, you'll find a way. People think I have race car pictures on my office wall because I'm egotistical (and I very well may be) but the real reason is to remind me daily why I work. Racing is what has driven me to be successful and make money, so I guess I'm among the addicted.

As someone elsewhere in this forum stated: "Racing is life; the rest of the time before and after is just waiting."

[1990whiteg60]

Thanks again for the input guys.

Doug, I was basing that statement on the fact that there are a couple of guys who by the age of 23 were still progressing there way toward becoming a F1 driver. As of right now it looks like that is a very long shot for me, but if I could race among the ranks of the other pro or semi-pro series that would make me happy.

Yes I own a corrado and it's surprising how much less it breaks when half of the stock unneeded electrical crap is removed.

Stan, I have contemplated that route several times and I'm just nervous that having never raced a formula car I will get over there and spend all my money racing the first season to end up empty handed. I am confident in my abilities, but at the same time it's hard not to think that if I couldn't make something happen the first season it will be a waste and take the next two to three years to build up enough to do it all over again.

Bob, right now my current plan is along the lines of what you have said and to just find a way to buy a car for next season. My concerns are what series gets the most exposure, have the highest level of competition and will play the biggest role in helping advance to the next level. Also what the cost is associated with purchasing a setup with the appropriate spares.

[Bob Wright]

Here's the short answer in the junior formula car ranks:

Skippy Series: $45,000/yr arrive and drive. If you win the series there are some interesting prizes, scholarships.

FBMW: $250,000/ yr arrive and drive...oops, you're already too old.

Pro Mazda: $300,000/ yr...yep, it has television. You have to be good, and lucky. Did I mention lucky and good? Ask Ricardo Vassmer or Cole Morgan (he lurks on this site occasionally ) what can happen to even great drivers.

F2000 Championship Series: $75,000/ for the first yr if you buy the car and wrench it yourself, then less per yr. Prep shops will charge anywhere from $50,000 to $125,000 arrive and drive depending on what's included. No television, but nifty web casting and fierce competiton. Great tracks, huge amounts of track time, and at least some pretty high profile events.

[Beartrax]

F2000 Championship Series: $75,000/ for the first yr if you buy the car and wrench it yourself, then less per yr. Prep shops will charge anywhere from $50,000 to $125,000 arrive and drive depending on what's included. No television, but nifty web casting and fierce competiton. Great tracks, huge amounts of track time, and at least some pretty high profile events.

+ It is organized by a terrific group of people.

[Purple Frog]

In FF Swift DB-6 is considered by many the car of choice. (Some even think it's pretty good in FC ) But... there are less than two handfuls in the whole world. It will be tough to get a seat in one.

But Cole is looking for sponsor money... maybe he would rent his father's. He would rent either of JRII's if he thought he wouldn't get caught.

You may have to revise the plan.

[Bob VanDyke]

Since there is no realistic way that at your age you'll make it to F1, you might consider other forms of pro racing. How about SCCA Mazda MX-5 Cup? If you do well there move up to SPEED World Challenge. If you have real talent, teams will find you. How about getting a decent old Porsche, BMW or Ferrari and run their owners club track days. After a while if you're good some guy with more money than talent might hire you to share a ride with him at the Rolex 24 Hours at Daytona, possibly a season in Gand Am Rolex series or Koni Challenge series. With IT experience these might be more realistic way to race with other peoples' money.

[Ted Idlof]

Man I can't believe all the harsh reality heaped on the poor guy. All true, but sheesh, he'll find all this out and more soon enough.

Good thing I didn't ask for advice before I bought a car.

Can't we all just get (dream) along?

[1990whiteg60]

This is kind of what I was expecting for responses, but I was hoping that someone had some better ideas about what I could do and maybe there was still some hope that its possible and I'm not already too old.

It seems the general consensus is that I should get a FF or F2000 and try to move my way up the ranks and possibly some day I will be lucky enough to have someone else at least pay for part of my racing in a series like Pro Mazda or something similar.

[Shep]

Hi Shawn,
Kudos to you for setting an aggressive goal - I think it's fair to say that the
majority of us here at ApexSpeed would like to see you attain it, because to varying
degrees we've all felt like you do now when jumping into formula car racing. I'd
like to add that it's refreshing that you're humble enough to ask for advice from
this forum as to a preferred path toward your goal.

That said, I will caution you to consider the source of the advice here. Most of us
are amateur club racers who own our own cars and race with the SCCA or a similar
organization (FRCCA, FPR, VARA, EuroFF, VRG, F2000, Pacific F2000, HSR, SVRA, etc.).
By purchasing cars, we've chosen (and largely locked ourselves into) the club racing
path. We have a vested interest in bringing more pro-series-minded participants into
the fold because a) it can help validate (perpetuate?) the notion that we race in an
environment that can create pro-series drivers and b) more participants mean better
competition, a larger customer base for sales, and new people to share that, "yeah, I
had intentions of going pro too" story over a beer.

So, much to the annoyance of my fellow ApexSpeeders I'm sure, I would advise you NOT to
buy your own car if you truly have aspirations of making it to the big time. Stan
certainly knows the process better than me and I'd guess that his advice is spot on
if you aspire to F3, Formula Nipppon, GP2, F1, maybe Champ Car - sell everything you
have, move to England and dedicate your life to the dream. Otherwise, I contend that
an arrive and drive championship series is the only way to go. Skip Barber, Jim Russell, maybe the Bridgestone Academy... somebody else worries about the car preparation, you focus strictly on the driving and how you're going to pay for it. These organizations know talent when they see it, they have the contacts at the next rung on the ladder, scholarships for the series champion, you get coaching after every session; if you're faster than the guy next to you, you know it's the driver and not the car, and if you bend a car, there will likely be another one ready and waiting for you for the next se$$ion. That's a lot better than tweaking your own car for three years wondering if it's you or the car that's slow, finally making it to the Runoffs, and then what?

The Hankook Formula 2000 championship seems like great bang for the buck here on the east coast and gets premium exposure at pro racing events. No doubt there was a ton of talent in the field, and promising young upstarts. But I'd still argue that you're better off renting a ride from one of the top prep shops (GTP near you?).

So, what are some names of Americans who've made it to a pro-series road
racing assignment, and how did they get there?

Charlie Kimbal - karts, Barber Dodge, UK FF1600 & 2000, F3, ??
Randy Pobst - SCCA Autocross, IMSA Firehawk, SCCA Runoffs SSC, Touring Cars
Scott Speed - karts, Russell, Barber Dodge, Formula Mazda, F3, Formula Renault, GP2, A1 GP, F1
Ryan Hunter-Reay - Karts, Skip Barber, Atlantics, Champ Car, Grand Am
James Clay -started a BMW performance parts company, progressed through BMW Club and
SCCA Club racing, Speed WTC
Guy Cosmo - karts, EMRA CFF!, SCCA FF, USF2000, Scandanavian F2k, CART Atlantics, Star Mazda, GrandAM, ALMS
Jon Fogarty - Barber Dodge, Indy Lights, Formula Atlantic, Grand-Am
Andy Lally - USF2000 Championship, Palmer Audi, Barber, Grand Am, ALMS
Bryan Sellers - karts, Barber Dodge, USF2000, Atlantics, ALMS
Bobby Wilson - karts, FF2000, SCCA FA, Cooper FF2000, Indy Pro
Matt Jaskol - karts, Barber, FBMW, FMazda, ASA Trucks, ??
Patrick Long - karts, Barber Dodge, UK Elf series, Brit FF Zetec, Brit FRenault, Porsche Cup, ALMS
John Edwards - karts, Skip Barber, ??
Colin Flemming - karts, Barber Dodge, Formula Renault, ??
Phil Giebler - karts, Barber FF, FRenault, F3, F3000, IPS
J.R. Hildebrand - karts, Russell, Palmer Audi, Cooper FF2000, CC Atlantics, IPS
Robbie Pecorari - karts, Barber Dodge, Star Mazda, CC Atlantic, IPS
AJ Allmendinger -
Paul Edwards
Joey Hand
(I see a pattern here...)

Now, take a look at the SCCA Runoffs top 4 for the past few years:
2002
FA
Mike Biangardi
Larry Connor
Rennie Clayton
Keith Lively
FC
Andrew Prendeville - now in IPS
Doug Prendeville
Brian Tomasi
Tim Minor
FF
Justin Pritchard
Chris Winkler
Thomas Schwietz
Todd Bardwell
2003
FA
Rennie Clayton
Daniel Selznick
Ben Beasley
David Wilcox
FC
Mike Andersen
Dave Weitzenhof
Charles Shaffer
Philip Lombardi
FF
Justin Pritchard
John Larue
Jason Byers
2004
FA
Robert Stallings
Keith Lively
Ahsen Yelkin
Randall Cook
FC
Brian Tomasi
Dave Weitzenhof
Mark Defer
Rick Silver
FF
Scott Rarick
Chuck Brewer
Chris Winkler
Justin Pritchard
2005
FA
Graham R Rahal - now in CCWS
Dan Selznick
David Wilcox
John Burke
FC
Niki Coello
Justin Pritchard
Dave Weitzenhof
William P Jordan
FF
John Robinson II
John LaRue
Clark Cambern
Tom Schwietz
2006
FA
Mirl Swan
David Grant
Keith Grant
Kyle Kelley
FC
Niki Coello
Cole Morgan
Justin Pritchard
Russell Lindemann
FF
Thomas Schwietz
James Hakewill
John Robinson II
Cliff Johnson

The guys in that list are insanely fast, experienced, know set-up, preparation, tactics - but how many are racing professionally and getting paid to do it? (Discount the anomaly with the famous racing father...) And that's not a knock on their talent, just the reality of the limited options available even after winning a championship.

There's a bunch of harsh reality in response to your post, but I honestly think it's because the ApexSpeed community cares enough to point you in the right direction. As it is, you're starting out late so there's little room for a mis-step.

You should take my thoughts with a grain of salt, because I've never taken the leap to chase a pro racing dream, but based on the nearly insurmountable odds stacked against anyone aspiring to a pro-racing career, it's obvious one (without a personal fortune) cannot chase the dream halfway. (There was a good article on this topic in Formula Car magazine by the way...) Sell your stuff, commit to a full season with a top arrive-and-drive series, dedicate yourself to being the best driver you can be, and see what falls out. If it works and you go to the next level, great - we're all rooting for you. If not, buy a competitive formula car (FF!) and test the rest of us here.

My 2 cents.

Erik

p.s. In looking back through it's obvious I represent the "never-been-there-never-done-that" contingent. I'm hoping others who have chased (or are chasing) the dream via the SCCA path will be willing to share their experiences/choices.

[Bob Wright]

Shep's post just about covers it all. The next best thing you can do is talk to one or more of those drivers listed about how they did it and what it took. I might suggest two to ask- Andy Lally and Guy Cosmo (not on the list but came up throught karts, FF, F2000 and so on). They're both good guys and will most likely answer your questions. AND, they both came up through the ranks with sweat, tears, and hard work. Check their web sites for contact info.

[1990whiteg60]

Thanks again for the advice. I'm taking this all in and in addition to reading as much as I can here and on other sites I'm trying to decide what the best approach for next year is. I also bought the book "Drive to Win". It's good to know that I some what had the right idea with either FF or F2000 and so far it really looks like an arrive and drive in either the Skip Barber or F2000 series is my best bet. In the mean time I'm going to keep my day job, sell off a lot of stuff and save as much as possible and see how far I can make it in racing. And all this time I thought I was the only one that thought 23 was old.

Keep up the great advice, I would still like to hear what others have to say and this is becoming a good reference for a lot of other people that probably are thinking the same way I am.

I know when I have kids they are going to have a much better path than I did and hopefully if I don't make it I can live vicariously through them.

As the saying goes a day late and a dollar short.

[Ted Idlof]

Today's rate: $15 mill to test the worst car in F-1.

[1990whiteg60]

That's crazy. I realize that F1 racing is as good as it gets, but it doesn't justify those prices. I really don't care what I race at this point as long as I'm behind the wheel going fast and hopefully in a professional series. My tentative plan is to race the Skip Barber National Championship next year and hopefully something will come of it.

I'm also curious to see what opportunities open up for Cole after winning the F2000 Championship because that is my other possibility for 2008.

[Ted Idlof]

This is a little off-topic except that it also elicits a "you gotta be dreaming !!" reaction from seasoned observers of current talent and trends in the racing business.

Zanardi offered Champ Car test.

However, for what the CCWS needs right now, that might be a stroke of genius. Here's a to Jimmy for thinking out of the box.