Question about Purchasing a Used Car

[dogburn]

My Dad and I are looking to purchase a formula vee or a formula ford this summer to autocross now and for me to road race when I graduate college. We have a couple of cars we are looking at now, and I was wondering how you guys checked the cars out before you bought them assuming you bought a used car from a private buyer. This will be the first race car we have purchased so we are a little unsure about it. Did you have a mechanic or local race shop go over the car or did you just look it over yourself? Either way, what kind of stuff did you look for or ask a mechanic to look at?

Thanks a lot for helping me out. Also, if you have any friends who have a vee or ford for sale, let me know. Our budget is 10K for a car and trailer. Thanks a lot.

Dave Ogburn

[DanW]

http://formularacingservices.com/How_to_Buy_a_U.html

There are several souls in your area who can provide advice and perhaps assist with inspection. They might know of some cars for sale.

Recommend attending a local race and meeting people who race the types of cars you are interested in. Ask Questions. Politely ask if you can sit in the car to see if it fits.. If you do a search through the getting started threads you will find some terrific advice.

Look at lots of cars. Not a usually good idea to buy the first one you see.

Best of luck and have fun.

Regards,
Dan Wise

[Rick Kirchner]

Besides following the above advice, I've used this info sheet to determine how much interest I have in a car before flying out to take a look or asking another apexspeed member to have a look for me

[PK]

Finding this forum is a good place to get started. There have been a few similar questions, and the general answer is that it's probably best to get (pay) a local race prep shop or someone with a lot of experience maintaining their own formula cars look at any prospective purchase. FV and FF are different enough, though, that you may want different people looking at each type (for example, I'd feel pretty qualified to look at a FF, but I wouldn't know what to look for on a FV.) There's not much point having a typical street car mechanic look at it. He could probably do a leakdown and through that give a little feel for engine condition, but other than that, the things to look for on the race car are so different from a street car, his experience just won't help much.

A side benefit to having a local prep shop help is that these are great people to get to know. They are usually quite happy to answer questions as you get familiar with your car, and if you run into any maintenance or repair that you're not comfortable doing yourself, they can do it for you.

I don't know who is in your area, but the board members can provide contact info.

Another comment: generally speaking there are few real bargains when it comes to buying used race cars. It always takes more time and money than you think to fix or restore things, so if a car is cheap because it needs a little work, it won't be cheaper than a freshly rebuilt car in the long run.

Good luck and have fun!

[Larry]

When purchasing complex equipment (airplanes, race cars, etc.), a good method is to personally inspect the car first, and then to agree upon a sale price that is 100% contingent upon it passing a pre-buy inspection. You, the buyer, pay for the pre-buy, and can inspect as deeply as you want, spending as much as you want. If you aren't happy with the results, you can walk away. You're out the money for the inspection, but that's all.

Especially with a formula car, I strongly recommend using an experienced inspector. It make take an hour or two to get comfortable with the overall condition. If you start finding things, it may take even longer to determine whether it's the right car. For example, a frame may have a minor ding. It may be absolutely minor, or it may have caused some misalignment throughout the chassis. The only way to be certain is to cross-measure the chassis, which can be time consuming.

Your best overall bet is to buy from someone you know and trust, and that has a good reputation, and like Ronald Reagan said, "Trust, but verify."

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products

[mblanc]

Buy a Ford,

If you ever move on someday, the chassis knowledge and experience will be much more valueable, relative and transferable to another car of any type.

[sidney]

As a former Vee owner, I am so glad I got out when I did. This class needs major revisions or it will continue to decline. You should also take a look at event reconds in yor region and see what is going on with car counts. In Colorado, it is tough to find more than a handful of Vees at any one event. Engine parts are no longer being produced (no more 1200 blocks) and have you tried to find a good set of wheels for a Vee lately? I also agree with the knowledge transfer to other classes.

On the plus side, there are a lot fewer things to go wrong, and when they do, it is probably a lot easier to determine the root cause. You gotta remember that these cars are based on designs set forth in the 1940s!

You're doing the right things by asking the questions and getting answers first.

[jgaither]

You are pretty close to both VIR and Summit Point. You might want to go to some races there & observe the classes and the competition. You can ask lots of questions of the owners and start to develop a feel for the class you like best. I drive FV in vintage and Club FF in SCCA. I love them both. FV is still a healthy class - especially so in the east - as is FF. Both classes have tons of cottage industry support - some of which you have already heard from in this thread. Take a look at joining the local SCCA region and then make sure you can get in to see the races you want - not all of them are open to spectators. Finally, if you get interested in a car, it's a good idea to buy one with current racing history. Even better to pick it up right out of the impound after it's latest win!

jg

[R John Lye]

Hi Dogburn,

Where are you located? I live at Lake Monticello, and have a Swift DB-1 (that is currently apart). There's also another Swift DB-1 nearby. If you'd like to get together to chat, send me an e-mail at:

rjl6n at cstone.net

As jgaither mentioned, we are almost exactly halfway between Summit Point and VIR, and so there will opportunities to go to the track and check out some of the cars in action.

John Lye

[Ted Idlof]

I've used this info sheet to determine how much interest I have in a car

Nicely done. Everyone should use that to keep their head on straight and their budget coldly in front of them.

[dogburn]

Thank you guys for all of the responses so quickly.

R John, I am in Richmond right now working for the summer. I go to UVA so I am in Charlottesville during the school year. I have been to Summit Point and VIR many times for watching/crewing at pro races and crewing at SCCA club races. I have seen the FFs and FVs run at Summit and VIR but not since high school and I did not talk to any of the car owners. Where is Lake Monteciello, I'm assuming it is close to Charlottesville? I would to see your FF and talk to you about it.

[Rick Kirchner]

Ted, I figure if I'm going to fly 5 hours, rent a car and a room, just to have a look at a car, then that's the time investment I expect of the current owner. When I was looking for a car, about half the guys filled it out as best they could, the other half either didn't know what they had or figured it was too much hassle for the sale - which is kind of a telltale right there......

If you think about it, the data sheet writes a very nice ad for the car.

Interestingly enough, when I actually found a car, I didn't use the sheet, and got singed a bit....

If there's one overarching piece of advice, I'd say ask the seller to have the car up in the air at least 12", if not on sawhorses, when you arrive. The bottom of the car is a very good telltale of the amount of use. You can do every bit of the inspection when it's up in the air except drive it.

[R John Lye]

Thank you guys for all of the responses so quickly.

R John, I am in Richmond right now working for the summer. I go to UVA so I am in Charlottesville during the school year.

Ahhh, OK. That makes sense. I work at UVA, so when you're
back in town, we can meet.

I have been to Summit Point and VIR many times for watching/crewing at pro races and crewing at SCCA club races. I have seen the FFs and FVs run at Summit and VIR but not since high school and I did not talk to any of the car owners. Where is Lake Monteciello, I'm assuming it is close to Charlottesville? I would to see your FF and talk to you about it.

Lake Monticello is about 20 miles southeast of Charlottesville - not too far
from Zion's Crossroads, if you remember driving by there on your way back
to Richmond.

I'll talk with you later,
John

[reisertracing]

If you are interested in buying a new(used) racing car a FV is a good starting point, very fun, relatively in-expensive and teaches you to drive and be smooth, i.e., momentum, if you can drive a FV fast you can learn to drive any car fast. Cars are fun to learn skills such as drafting and safe to race, easier to maintain while learning set-up maintenance etc.

I would call SR Racing or visit their web site on the internet, Jim Schings is a FV engine builder/ racer and their site has lots of used FV for sale. Jim wrote a book about FV and also explains what to look for in a good used race car.

Basically, look and sit in cars you are interested in, many cars don't fit. Swifts are very tight for larger drivers. FV parts are harder to find, but can be found as the cars are still used in Mexico and South AMerica, many parts Jim Schings stocks and his rebuilds are better priced then many builders and he backs up what he sells.

I would as others stated go watch some races, look at the cars and finally, get your novice license, rent a car for the school and rent what you are interested in buying. I can personally tell you, I have bought several cars over the years and most times the purchase has been good. Look at who owned the car and the logbook to see if any major damage has been done to the car. Also check the spares package and when it was last raced. Current tech inspection and how many similar cars are being raced currently.

FV is a class that many folks still race and the class is very stable. There are many plaves to find spares, try VW magazine, Buggy Works in Martinsville Indiana has many parts and is very reasonable. The beetle was a great car and very user friendly. Bob Lybarger of LRE in the ZChicago area is a great resource and can be of assistance.

I am not popoing FF but the basic start-up and knowledge to jump into a FF from a FV is very steep. It's your call, good luck and have fun.

[Jerry Santucci 33]

Especially the part about "finding a local race shop"... if you are as fortunate as we were (we found Walko Racing in the Pittsburgh area) you will be helped out more than you can ever imagined. It sounds like you will have a lot of questions on how to proceed even "after" you buy your new race car. Again, if you pay a little up front with your race shop and they take you under their wing.... WOW - this is HUGE. I can't even start to tell you how many phone calls and questions John answered and I believe we would have been lost without him.
I think this is one of the best things you can do to help you NOT ONLY purchase a race car, but have as much success as your money and determination will allow.
The next thing will be the friends you make while racing. Again, we were fortunate their too, but that is a whole other story.....
Good luck to you...

[Larry]

Since you haven't started yet, an excellent approach would be to RENT a car for driver's school. The Summit Point drivers school is in the end of October. You could rent either a V or Ford. Prices are between $1,000 and $2,000. This will give you a chance to see if you prefer one car, and you'll get a start on the experience you need. You'll also meet some people who can help you along the way. I would strongly recommend that you rent a car for drivers school. There have been occasions where people decided that racing is not what they thought, and renting a car is a good way to get involved without having to put up all the capital.

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products