Classes and Why So Many?

[Bob Wright]

I can't resist...just replaced a zetec motor because it swallowed a 5/16th flat washer (don't ask, I have no idea how, when or where). I think the motor was original, never out of the car since 2003 with 8000 miles (?) and still ran just fine.

Classes- I second Mr. Green: Open wheel-FV, FF, FC, FA (and maybe some form of FB) and no more than 15 clases total on the national level. Each of those classes should be distinct and identifyable. I don't like spec classes, but thats a personal opinion and I agree that there should be at least one per car type (open wheel, sports racer, production). Keep it simple and attractive to new blood (just look at the growth of NASA in a few short years).

I might add...the classes should not be stagnant- new technology is not a bad thing and the classes should embrace, not run from it. eg; alu brake calipers or a 5 speed sequential box in FF/FC if that's what the rest of the world is using. A little thinking outside the box is always good

[EYERACE]

SCCA in their less than infinite wisdom IS going to combine FE [FSCCA] and FM [not the current Pro Mazda]

Uhhhhhh...so much for a spec class

What the heck are they doing to two classes that do not have a numbers problem?

and, if eye was reading it right, planing to also combine C and D sports racers.

[Bruce Allen FSCCA #82]

This is a ridiculous mistake. How can a spec class have a non-spec dar? How to screw up a rapidly growing class (FE/Formula SCCA) with more participation than half the classes in SCCA that just got national designation this year? These must be rally people running the show.

[Dan Aleckson]

I would like to know what the crb was thinking??? The rules for a run off class were in place .all of us fscca cars were doing what we needed to do. to be a national class then the rules get changed???I thought the most popular classes got invited to the runoffs. This is worse than go karting politics. .It looks like they are still trying to kill enterprises??? Dan

[Ted and Nancy]

Posting on this board MEANS NOTHING TO THE BOD. SEND EMAIL FOR OR AGINST THE COMBINING OF CLASSES TO THE BOD.

[turnbaugh]

If they want to combine classes put all that old crap together. Whoever wins there is just a function what car you want to chop up and use. The car types are so diverse you never know who has the most skill anyway. Contanimating a growing spec class makes no sense.

And if you combine DSR and CSR guess who always wins. It will kill the participation of the slower cars.

[Ted Idlof]

Posting on this board MEANS NOTHING TO THE BOD

True, but it helps to get some emotion out, circle the wagons, and refine the message to the BOD. If anyone would like to compare notes (Dan, Chuck?) we're putting thoughts together over on the FM forum.

Let's roll.

[Stan Clayton]

Ted,

The CRB has already sent the recommendation to the BoD, so for maximum effect you FM guys should send your emails to the BoD (bod@scca.com), as well as to the CRB.

I'm not a member of that forum, so maybe you could remind them of that.

Thanks! Stan

[msbacola]

Why FE and not FM?

Formula mazdas are NOT Sequential shift and they look like the fat ugly sister of the modern formula car.
It is difficult to sell ugly and the cool factor of sequential shift is easy to sell.

Also Mazda put up $15,000 for the FE pro-series, So somebody believes in it!


TO THOSE THAT HATE SPEC CARS.

Spec cars make up 37% of all cars raced in Nationals.(SM,SRF,FM,FE)
For those that have trouble with percentages that is 1 out of every 2.7 cars.


TO THOSE THAT HATE SCCA ENTERPRISES.

Enterprises cars make up 17% of all cars raced at Nationals.(SRF,FE)
That is 1 out of every 6 cars. That is pretty damned good for one single entity.


The Other factor that the FE car has that is tough to beat is the CSR(Customer Service Rep) Network. CSR's support current racers with parts and knowledge and promote SRF/FE to racers that have seen the light.

FYI, I am not a huge fan of Enterprises and will probably have another run in with them before the season is over. But the truth is the truth.

Motorcycle powered cars currently make up about 5% of cars in the Nationals and this probably won't change much because the other 95% realize that motorcycle engines belong in motorcycles. Why has Honda,Suzuki,Yamaha, and Kawasaki not jumped all over this new FB Class? Will they put up any Money?


Michael Bacola

[Larry]

I doubt that many of us hate Enterprises. What would be rational about that? I do, however, find the fact that Enterprises is owned by SCCA to be a regrettable travesty. SCCA has used our dues to fund and promote a for-profit subsidiary that has often lost money--resulting in more subsidies paid from our higher membership dues. It has also caused the SCCA to violate it's own rules for the sake of Enterprises. If you doubt this, just look at the SRF roll hoop. SCCA has made further decisions to protect Enterprises that conflicted with its rules (i.e. Fran-AM formula car).

Do I hate Enterprises? Hell, no, I envy them! I'd love to have a business with an easy source of low-cost capital and a protected market!

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products

[Rick Kirchner]

WOW! Mazda put up $15K for a pro series. THAT shows comittment. Even it was $15K paid to each finisher down to 10th place over an entire season, it wouldn't come close to their TV advertising bill for a weekend.

Given the looks of most formula cars these days I think ugly sells like hotcakes.

[msbacola]

Larry,

I detected some animosity toward Enterprises in other posts, so my post was in response to that.

I think most of us "think" we know the history of Enterprises. The present is what currently matters, and from what I am told Enterprises is in the black and repaying loans.

I am also aware of mechanical concessions made as far as SRF/FE are concerned. Have You ever sat in a spec miata? When I sit in them my helmet is even with the top of the rollbar and the only thing protecting my helmet would be the flimsy fiberglass hardtop! But 971 have showed up at Nationals this year.

I have been Full-time in the prep-shop business for 5 years. When I speak with new racers or current racers about what class they want to participate in, many factors come in to play. Trying to get into a class like formula ford or formula continental when your not in that circle is tough.
Who to trust?
What chassis to buy?
Who builds the engine?
Where do you buy parts?

These questions may seem elementary to us, but for the new guy that just wants to get on track and add to the number of entries these questions can be daunting. The current number of classes also adds to the confusion.

Michael Bacola

[ShirleyMacIII]

<snip>... pay a good Engineer to work with them to get the car geared and setup properly from the start. <snip>

Pay an engineer! This is supposed to be club racing. You should be able to learn as you go. Maybe the core problem is having regional and national classes. It's seems the national folks just want to be pro's. Well, go pro then and stop running regional club racing into the ground with big spending with "engineers", data systems and teams.

There's a reason the "other" organizations are starting to grow. People can go there and race! Not outspend each other.

[Charles Warner]

I find it instructive that there are no discussions on the FM or FSCCA boards regarding this impending combination. That and the lack of written comments would indicate no one really cares enough.

[msbacola]

Rick,

$15k for a club racing pro-series is very much appreciated, and can help to promote the class and racing in general. Why don't you solve this too many classes problem for us? Tell us what class to run, where and when to run it and then at least you'll be happy. I'm sure everyone will follow your advice.



Charlie,

Some in the FE community have been communicating via email, Enterprises sent emails to the BOD and provided directions for car owners and others to express their concerns with the combination. Most of this was done immediately, therefore preventing any wasted energies.
Its good to be organized.

Michael Bacola

[Eric Cruz]

Charles,
I would hestitate to take instruction by omission so readily. I just sent my piece to the BoD where it at least has a possibility of having an effect. It's not a lack of caring, thank you very much.

Best regards,
Eric

[Charles Warner]

Charles,
I would hestitate to take instruction by omission so readily. I just sent my piece to the BoD where it at least has a possibility of having an effect. It's not a lack of caring, thank you very much.

Best regards,
Eric

Eric,

While I can not tell you the split pro and con, I can say that as of this moment we have only received 4 letters regarding this issue (including yours), and not all are from FE drivers. With well over 100 FEs out there it does seem there may be some apathy in play.

[Wren]

what is the email for CRB letters?

[Dave Gomberg]

Send comments to bod@scca.com and crb@scca.com

Dave

[jimk1852]

[FONT=Arial][SIZE=3] As an SCCA national license holder and owner/driver of FE #060 I completely disagree with the proposal to combine classes. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]I purchased the car and began driving in SCCA to drive in a spec series. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]I have no interest in buying the newest whatever every week because someone found a new way to beat the competition by out spending them. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]The value of these cars has been climbing steadily because drivers see the value of a spec series. Think about it, this is a strong indicator into the interest in and viability of the class [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]If this proposal goes through I expect I’ll dump the car and SCCA and stick to my CVAR and NASA races. I implore you to leave our spec class a spec class.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]Thank you for your consideration. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=3] [/SIZE][/FONT]

[Skylane]

If I were king for a day:

Make the necessary weight and performance adjustments to equalize FC, FM, FE and FB, and group them all in one class. So whether you're a tinker drawn to FC; on the cheap with a FM; turn-key with FE; or aesthetically drawn to the FB - it wouldn't take much to make them competitive with one another.

The point is to find some type of performance anchor to build the class around, rather that the particular cars or configurations.

-John

[Rick Kirchner]

$15k for a club racing pro-series is very much appreciated, and can help to promote the class and racing in general. Why don't you solve this too many classes problem for us? Tell us what class to run, where and when to run it and then at least you'll be happy. I'm sure everyone will follow your advice.
You're kidding, right? Come back with a logical argument at least. Do you have any idea how that $15K was spent? Magazine ads in Sports Car and Formula Car perhaps - isn't that singing to the choir? Mazda bought your loyality for less than the profit margin on three economy cars? I may be easy, but I'm not cheap.....

1400+ posts - I'm not in Froggies league but I hope I've provided some useful advice on this forum Mr 5-posts-to-date.

And I'll buy the sequential shift argument when your Ford Focus has one. Unless you grow up with bike motors, everyone learns on a slushbox or H-pattern. They have one truly useful feature though - they prevent you from selecting the wrong gear and blowing up engines - especially those not designed well for their intended use. I suppose, in certain circles, that that's a major feature.

[SStadel]

Charlie,

There were 16 of us already on the way to the June Sprints when the letter came out. I didn't know of it until after I arrived. I'm formulating my letter and the BOD will be getting it, along with many others from our community. Also, is there an FSCCA forum somewhere but on Apexspeed? If there is I don't know of it, and I don't see a reason for a separate forum from Apexspeed.

Steve

[Eric Cruz]

Hi Charles,
I just looked back at my post, and I apologize for how rudely it comes off. I think I had a bit of an attitude last Friday, having just completed writing my input to the BOD.

I am trying to do my part to get the FE community informed of the situation, so that there is some hope of getting them to submit their input as well.

Best regards,
Eric

[SStadel]

I find it instructive that there are no discussions on the FM or FSCCA boards regarding this impending combination. That and the lack of written comments would indicate no one really cares enough.

I looked at the timing of your post and the timing of Stan's post that the new Fastrack was up and that there were some interesting things in it. Less than 48 hours had elapsed. Do you think that all 114 FE owners even knew about this before your post? Do you think that we all sit around the web waiting for information that would severely damage our class only months after we had been granted one? Your next post states that 4 letters had been sent. Let us know when a week has elapsed how many letters have been sent. Unlike Eric, I won't apologize for the tone of this post.

[Charles Warner]

Steve,

I would hope that there is at least some sort of grapevine that can transmit such things in a speedy manner. (Was there no great discussion among the 14 of you at Elkhart?) This issue can/will have a great impact on the class(es) and is of paramount importance (my take only.) Not only does the number of letters matter but the speed with which the community at large responds also has a direct impact. With today's technology instant reaction and response is possible, even from Road America. (And, yes, in a way I would expect someone with such an investment to keep abreast of the goings-on in the Club, especially in this age of uncertainty.)

By the way, a total of 6 letters so far, both pro and con regarding the proposal, and not all from FE drivers. As a comparison, there are 24 letters regarding the SR consolidation.

Eric, I don't know of any other forum for FE but when I see not one post reflecting an opinion on the Aprexspeed forum I have to wonder. Either people don't look at the forum at all or are not posting for other reasons. There is a fairly active discussion over on the SR boards regarding their impending changes and I find it interesting to not see at least a smattering of discussion over here.

As an addendum, it appears from 0723 to 0959 this very morning your efforts have been rewarded by several more people sending their letters. That's what I hoped to see - immediate reaction. Now, if you could get the FM folks to do the same. Is it possible their heads are stuuck so far in the sand that they have no idea what's going on? No discussion on the FM section of Apexspeed at all.

[dc]

No discussion on the FM section of Apexspeed at all.

We must smell. The Mazda guys don't seem to like ApexSpeed much.

[S Lathrop]

Combining Fromula Mazada and FSCCA/FE seems to me to be one of the better ideas I have seen come out of the CRB in years.

You have 2 classes of similar performance and concept (mid level spec formula cars). One class is in the accendency and the other is mature and heading towards a decline. By combining the two classes each gains the strength of the combined class. Why should there be 2 spec formular car classes for such similar cars? Without this combination you will probably see the FMs discussing their future in a few years as the cars start retiring.

I personally am not a great fan of spec car racing. The only thing that is really spec in a spec class is the price of entry. Top end FC are expensive but you can get into a good FC for under $10,000 and you can save a lot of money doing a lot of the work your self. Most of my customers for FF and FC could not (or would not) afford to race a spec car. And yet those same coustomers are competing for a SCCA national championships.

Look at the interest in F1000. I think F1000 will be a major class in a few years. The price for new cars has been very competitive and SCCA has not had to subsidize the class either.

[Charles Warner]

Steve,

While I agree with you in principle, the racers that purchased either of these classes did so with the expectation that their cars would be spec and, as such, the outlay for an upper tier (not necessarily top tier) car would be limited. And, the playing field would be even.

With this proposal both groups would have to somewhat modify their cars (how we don't even know yet!) at further expense. How can anyone make an informed opinion without knowing what these adjustments will/might entail?

And, would we have a factory support issue with Mazda/Ford providing more support than Enterprises ever would/could? That makes the playing field potentially very uneven.

These classes are doing OK, with the FE guys showing great strides in making their class a contender. It's not appropriate IMO to change the sandbox at this time.

[LAJ]

Pay an engineer! This is supposed to be club racing. You should be able to learn as you go. Maybe the core problem is having regional and national classes. It's seems the national folks just want to be pro's. Well, go pro then and stop running regional club racing into the ground with big spending with "engineers", data systems and teams.

There's a reason the "other" organizations are starting to grow. People can go there and race! Not outspend each other.

In the last year I have watched a father & son mis at least half of thier sessions and suffer, throw away other sessions because they had a poorly prepped car.I do not know about anyone else but if I am possibly puting my life and body on the line in a racecar I would want someone that knows what there doing to help me or at least teach me to prep the car the right way in the first place!! If for no other reason but for mine and everyone else's on the tracks safty!!!!!!
You are right this is a CLUB. I have also seen I very young man lose his legs from the knee down at one of these CLUB events.I have had a friend put out of the sport for almost 3 years rehabing foot and leg injuries.
All I am saying with over 30 years as a Mechanic ,Engineer and Driver (work on cars fron Indy to Le Mans) I would hire a Mechanic-Engineer over buying a second set of new tires anyday as a budget move.What you could learn in that weekend would not only help you for ever but that one set of tires would last as long as both of the 2 sets if you were learning how to get the car to work right on your own.I have seen this untold times!!
Lee
ps. take my advice or not but the ones that have are on the front row looking in thier mirrors at the ones who don't

To get back on the subject !! I noticed that there was only 2 cars in T3 and 4 in SSC at the June Sprints and only 6 in SSB THAT is ONLY 12 cars in all 3 classes at the Sprints !!!

[Ted Idlof]

Would someone please pause for a moment and help me understand the root cause for this move and explore win-win solutions before I call it blatant political skullduggery? Is it simply that there are only 24 classes allowed at the Runoffs and logistically that is the max number that can be supported? I can understand how some of the older classes are feeling squeezed out and feel like they should have some tenure or seniority at the Runoffs. But since their numbers are dwindling and nature is taking it's course, is there a way to let them die out gradually instead of being kicked out all at once? How about allow them to race at the Runoffs but combined into a run group same as they do in all the Nationals races all year long. Granted, not having your own class race is a bit of a bummer since they have traffic complicating their individual battles for position but at least they're at the Runoffs and racing under the same conditions as they were to get there instead of home pissed off at the old lady.

How many classes stand to be eliminated? Well, just say for talking purposes there were 4 with a total of 28 classes vying for Runoff spots. Why not do something like combine the weakest 6 into 2 race groups and allow the top 22 classes to run their own class-pure races. Seems like that would be a step down from the current system for the weakest 6, but at least they'd be there. And for all the other year long competitors that don't come to the Runoffs, they get their "plastic cup" and flag and it's business as usual at their weekend races.

OK, set me straight, what am I missing?

[Greg Mercurio]

Yo Ted: What you're missing is how much air time Speed Channel will allocate to this organization. 24 classes worth is what I was told by a BOD member. I was also told that the tail isn't supposed to wag the dog in the same conversation.

Yeah I know, black helicopters and all that, but there's this place in Bridgeport CT where they build...Black Helicopters!

[Ted Idlof]

Well, there you go, the same old answer for just about anything !!! How could I have overlooked the obvious?? Someone else told me that Speed says you can't combine classes in one race group because the "audience will be confused." But, seems to me that, for the broadcast times they give us for the Runoffs, the only audience is us and our TIVOs.

I got it now.

"That's some catch, that Catch-22," he [Yossarian] observed.
"It's the best there is," Doc Daneeka agreed.

[Dennis McCarthy]

Guess we'll never have to worry about ABC Wide World of Sports outbidding Speedvision to get to cover the runoffs will we........

[EYERACE]

could you imagine winning the National Title in the FE class in an old FM? .......would that sit well with all those that bought the FSCCA car so as to run in a "spec" class?




once again it would help define SCCA to read phoneticly as "sucka"

obviously those coming up with the combination rule are those that don't own or drive a car in either class

[KAMcDonald]

why not merge GT1 and SM togerher.... they are both production cars, so are obviosly similar.

weight penaly to even out performance is like what, 5000lb minimum weight for a GT1 or change the motor on SM to a v6 turbo package?

[D.T. Benner]

Any Idea's! They may take you up on it!