Any "blow by blow" from LRP ?

[stonebridge20]

Let's here it !

[Michael Rand]

Here or Hear ? Or Hear it Here ?
OK, in a nutshell, in FF, race group 3, Art Foster disappeared to no one's surprise, I had qualified right next to him in the 30F on Dunlops with Ed Callo and the rest close behind. I couldn't even see Art after maybe 4-5 laps but that was OK because Eddie on Hoosiers and me on my Dunlops had a fun multiple position change race which I ultimately "won" for Second in FF. Eddie's comments in Impound were something to the effect that he had never seen quite so much of the side of a car he was racing against.
So a brief respite in impound, throw a few gallons of gas in, strap back in and go back to race as a NARRC Club Ford, still obviously on Dunlops.
Rod Kendall had won the pole in a hair raising qualifying session with 8NCF, 14 FV, and 3 F500. Really quite focusing, if not downright frightening, for everyone involved.
After heartfelt pleas from everyone the race went ok, but the race gouping still sucks, especially at a momentum track like Lime , for everyone.
Green flag, me and Rod on the front row, Delvecchio a late start for just a lap as his Pertronix did the old trick of spitting a couple of the magnets and if you have ever had that happen you know how badly, if at all, a Kent will run. Or not run. I am pretty sure he had the original style pre epoxy as the later versions seem trouble free.
The Dunlops are magic from cold, I was shocked, as was Rod, at the gap I was able to put on him. Rod was on used 600 Goodyears, I am not sure how many heat cycles old, but I figured as soon as he got them warm he'd be getting larger in my mirrors.
Around Lap 10 maybe, as we both struggled through lapping clots of Vees, he caught me and went by.
As anyone familiar with Dunops knows, if you pound on them hard for a while they get "greasy", increasing their already substantial slip angle alarmingly. The trick is to cool it for a few laps to let them regain their composure but in a 15 lapper at Lime Rock with only, as it turned out due to an early checker when a V punched in at West Bend, there is precious little opportunity to back off, especially with a competitor like Rod, he ain't gonna wait around waiting for your tires to come back.
So we finished one-two, Rod ahead by under a second, we both agreed in compound the Dunlops kick ass from cold but they can be overdriven, which I clearly did trying to build a big enough gap so I wouldn't be tempted to pass lapped cars when I wasn't damn sure they knew I was there.
It was exactly one year ago while in a battle with Rod, him leading after numerous back and forths, as we were lapping a FV at the downhill, Rod went through but the V driver didn't expect two of us, and I wound up hard in the tire barrier outside the downhill, doing both Right Hand corners, nose, rad etc.
In fact, in the Group 5 drivers meeting, something new and I think very effective, after qualifying the Chief Steward, Kathy Barnes, had individual group drivers meetings instead of the usual mass time waster, Rod reminder the V guys that we , ClubFords, tend to travel in pairs, if not triples.
I guess it was a part of the learning curve, I love these tires, Saturdays second race was their 12th heat cycle and they really haven't changed beyond me beating them up and overheating them.
And when a few spots of rain started appearing half way through I was going, Yeah, bring it on, but it didn't listen.
So Agnif, there you are, at least from the FF/NCF perspective.
As long as the Regions insist on splitting the groups this way, FC/FM/FA/FE/FB/C&DSR and FF, with NCF in with FV and F500, those of us with NCF's can do a double. I think the regions are starting to understand 2 things:
One, all FF and NCF want to race together, NCF is generally as fast as FF so neither belong in with FV/500 and
Two, but if they insist on doing this at least put two or more other race groups in between and you, the region, will get more NCF guys like me doing the double. I had a very short turn around time, like under 30 minutes between the qualifying sessions and races, and while I'll do it again, I would prefer a few minutes to have some water, add fuel safely, etc.

[stonebridge20]

Two SECOND places ?????????? CRAP Rand,.....Your hero status is on the line in my book! I thought JT was the only one you let beat you at the park!
Anyway,...Thanks for the great report. Sorry I wasn't there for the fun.

Agnif

[AlanVDW]

As the slowest NCF in that group, I ran by myself still trying to learn the car. I kept an eye in my mirrors and gave all enough room. At least I think I did. I decided to let the lead Vee's go by and run their own race. I couldn't beleive how much oil they spit out. Rod and Mike caught me after the uphill, I think. The Vee in front of me, like Mike said didn't expect them to go by so quickly.
I think it would have been better to run NCF and CF in with FA, FC, FF, S2. If the Vee's get more cars to enter they can have their own group, with F500, and get a full race distance.

[Tom Valet]

Agnif,

Mike is being very restrained and polite in his description of the Club Ford race with regard to the lapping of the Vees. We stood at the uphill for the race, and Mike was in the lead for most of the race with a 1-2 car length lead on Rod when they came upon a black Vee at the end of no-name, blue flag being waved like mad. The Vee appeared to stay wide at first but then chopped straight to the Apex just as Mike committed to go inside. We thought they would touch but Mike jammed on the brakes, lost all his momentum and his race was ruined. I'm not sure if the Vee driver he saw Mike's one finger salute as he went by up the hill, but we all saw it.

I agree with Mike that this race grouping sucks, the club fords and the FFs should be running together, but as Mike said before the race when he predicted this exact lapping problem, the organizers have to bolster the car numbers in the Vee group to justify a separate run group for them.

As for us, we had a miserable day. While running slow bedding in brakes my son missed the apex going down the hill, hit the large bump and the rear came around. He spun twice, recovered in the dirt but then just clipped the tire barriers bending the left front suspension. We had all the parts to fix the car thanks to the help of Don Veith, but then found that one barrel nut was a hair too short for the replacement arm, so to be safe we sat out the race. As Mike said, Art was in a class of his own, turning 55.5 laps which is very very quick.

Take care.

Tom
FF #10
Swift DB-1

[stephen wilson]

Mike, I had my Pertronix magnets "redistribute" themselves inside my Dist. last year at LRP. Do you guys have some weird magnetic fields up there or what? I wish I had known this is a common problem BEFORE I tried to qualify on 1 cylinder. Well, they're epoxied now!
Steve

[Michael Rand]

I had the magnet deal a few years back but was under the impression that the unit that failed was a first generation one and the later ones were prperly epoxied in place.
When they fail it is really no one home, mine shut down completely with all 4 huddled around the shaft for company.....

[EACIII]

They could have put the NCF into group 3 with the FF, FC and rest, not like our group was full and gave the V's and 500 their own group. Don't really understand logic for this. Not like they want the get the NCF's to run both as they put the groups too close together.

Oh I know the answer, get 35 FF & NCF's to come out then we get our own group, problem solved.

Ed

[AlanVDW]

There seems to be some "rule" where a group can be moved back in the schedule, but never forward. It may cause an issue for someone with a repair that needs to be done, BUT, if we all, in NCF, agreed to move to the earlier group, why not? I understand splitting an oversubscribed group, or combining two groups well ahead of the date as was the MOHUD race.
Mike, what was Kathy's reason or explanation to not move us?

Alan, #0

[Michael Rand]

I am sorry to say there was in fact never a reason given, simply a "no, we aren't going to do that".
And that was after 2 attempts.
And if you look at the next one day regional on July 4, you will notice the Miata guys are in Group 1 [SSM] and Group 5 [SM], with 3 groups in between,while FF is Group 4 and NCF is Group 6, one group in between, making it far more difficult for a club ford person to do a double compared to a Miata driver.
One can only ask, why ?
because there are more Miata drivers ? because more of them will do the double ? Well, yeah, but maybe if there was better scheduling more club ford drivers would do the double.
But obviously all concern is currently aimed at the Miata mobs......entry fees be damned.
My club and region of 40 years and I feel like a red headed step child.
By the way, other stewards say the "rule" is only a rule of thumb and if all competitors agree then it is no rule at all.
But there are those who are concerned across the board with the driver base and listen and respond to drivers and those who pick and choose what to listen to.
Again, my club and region of 40 years seems to be lost at least as far as us open wheel types are concerned.

[Roux]

Mike. How much more are they charging CF/FF guys to do the double race? The July 4th thing is interesting if we can get a bunch of track time at a discounted price.

I have been comparing the 90 minutes we got on track at Montreal to the pace laps with brief race intermissions we got at Pocono and am becoming a bit jaded. I found that I was still going faster on the second to last lap of the weekend which is a clear indication that the driver is still the limit. ( I told the crew that it could be attributed to burning off the fuel during the race. I think they bought it!)

I am with Mike on the love for the Dunlops. I think many midpack and backpack drivers will go faster on them than on slicks. Why? Cause they forgive you when you overstep the limit and in most cases you have enough time to correct matters. Builds confidence and keeps people near the limit, rather than ending a session wondering how the car went from grip to spin so suddenly and then backing off to avoid further spins

[Purple Frog]

Rand,
Now you know why I'm a member of the Atlanta Region, even though I live in Florida. The likes of folks like Butch Kummer, Toni Creighton, etc, seem to have sensible heads in being fair to ALL drivers. Many times there are compromises being made(like you would know about scheduling compromises ), but we don't get the infamous flat "no", they give us an explanation we may not like, but we can live with.

[Rod Kendall]

I'd like to steer this thread back to the 'Dunlops & Slicks' topic for a moment. Before the race Mike and I decided that I would run Slicks and he would run Dunlops in order to get a side-by-side comparison. This is an easy swap because converting from Dunlops to slicks and vice-versa involves changing the front ride height 3/8" and thats it. My GY R600 slicks had 4 heat cycles on them, Mikes Dunlops had about 11 heat cycles on them, including his impressive run in FF two sessions earlier.

Our start was clean and we were still along side each other into the braking zone with the Dunlops getting ahead of the cold slicks on the brakes. First lap times were 1:01.2 for the Dunlops and 1:02.8 for the slicks. The total elapsed time for laps 1-to-5 was 295.9 for the Dunlops vs. 298.7 for the slicks so after 5 laps Mike had pulled out a 2.8s lead with an average lap time of 59.2 for the Dunlops compared to 59.7 for the slicks. Mike is correct when he says I was VERY surprised at the early pace of the Dunlops.

At lap 6 we were into Vee traffic but my impression is that the hold-ups were about the same for both of us.

After 5 laps the slicks were at full temperature and grip. Looking ahead to Mikes car I could see the Dunlops were beginning to object to the punishment they were getting. This is reflected in the transponder data which shows the elapsed time for 10 laps at 592.5s for the Dunlops and 592.5s for the slicks. The gap is now effectively zero. The average lap time for laps 5-to-10 was 59.3 for the Dunlops and 58.8 for the slicks. Remember we were continually dodging Vees at this point so the absolute lap speeds are not that fast but the fact remains that under race conditions it took 10 laps for the Slicks to catch the Dunlops from a cold start. At this point there were still 5 laps to go; in traffic; so this thing was far from over.

In the 10-to-15 stint Mikes strategy of going hard early came completely un-glued when he got shut down by a bunch of Vees at the uphill with 3 laps to go and I got by. To make matters worse the checker came a lap early. The gap at the finish line was less than a second with both of us turning our fastest laps on the final lap. If the race had gone another lap the finishing order may well have been reversed.

My overall impression of the Dunlops having both raced them and watched them at close quarters is that they are a great tire. As we become more skillful at managing them over a race distance they will be giving up nothing to 600 compound slicks. Tire management is part of the craft of driving a race car so in no way do I see this as a negative.
For the budget-minded club racer the benefits of racing COMPETITIVELY on one set of tires per season is self evident, and the Arizona and Ontario experiences are existance proofs that reduced tire costs increase participation.

Go Dunlops I say ........

[GeoffRain]

Mike & Rod,

My dad and I had the opportunity to watch your battle from Big Bend, and I have to say it was very exciting - waiting for Mike's tires to start to go away, and then feeling a few raindrops and thinking his win was in the bag, and then the rain stopped and the Dunlops got hot.... Too bad tere was so much traffic.


and Mike, I didn't realize you had those tires on for the FF race as well- very impressive finish.

Geoff

[stephen wilson]

Rod,
So you don't need to change the set-up at all when going from 600's to Dunlops, except for ride height? I guess I'll be switching to them next year.
Steve

[Jonathan Hirst]

Super account Rod. Thanks to you and Mike for volunteering a weekend to do a back to back comparison.

One of the things you mentioned was that tirecraft is an important component to the Dunlops. It's no secret that, simply put, they come in, they go out, and the when and for how long is a result the age, your driving style, and the number of heat cycles.

One benefit I would mention is that with the Dunlops, even if you really overheat them they do recover by the next session. That lets people try different things with the tires without worry of destroying a set by being too aggressive in one session.

Hope to cross paths with you guys later this season.

Jonathan

[Rod Kendall]

Steve

Certainly all you need to get started is to change the front ride height. If you are running 600's now you will be instantly comfortable with the Dunlops. As you start to push harder you will end up moving some brake bias to the rear but my guess is you will be within a second or two of your normal lap times straight out of the box if your car balance is already good. Fine tuning of bars, toe, camber, rake, etc. can be done incrementally during the season if you feel the need. You will notice the car moves around under your bum more than on slicks but by the end of your first session you will already be ignoring it. Make certain your weight is at least 10 pounds over the limit now, not only do the Dunlops have less frontal area than 600's but they are significantly lighter. Enjoy.

[stephen wilson]

Thanks Rod. I run a very limited schedule, and was hoping the switch didn't require a ton of testing to get in the ballpark. I was curious as to whether they require changes to camber and tire pressure. I hadn't even considered a difference in weight, thanks for the heads-up.
Steve

[Michael Rand]

Yeah, the extra 10 pounds of dive weights bolted to the floor of the Crossle attest to the difference in weight between the Dunlops and Goodyears....
Rod is spot on, as usual, and far more lucid than my babblings and ramblings.
And clearly we agree on one thing.
Go Dunlop, you won't regret it.
Jon Hirst is also correct, they do recover, just let them cool down a while and they will report back for duty. So geoff, those tires had maybe a half hour from the end of the FF race to the start of the NCF race and they were killer until I beat them into submission.....
Tire management my ass. Well, it goes to show there is always something new to learn.

[TimW]

So, been poking around FF message boards around the world after my 8 (!) laps in Montreal did not really prove to provide me a period to get comfortable on the Dunlops and was hoping to get some more perspectives on the tires. However, no one in FF around the world uses the dunlops outside north america except vintage classes. UK, Europe & Australia all use a treaded bias ply AVON. Was I the only one who drew the wrong conclusion here about Dunlops being ubiquitous everywhere but the states?