Sneak Peek!

[ianashdown]

Pacific Motorsports have finally commited to build an F1000 car. More information, web-site, etc will all be coming soon. In the mean time here are a few screen captures from the CAD Model. It's not finalized, but you get the concept. More info soon!

[preform resources]

Ian,are you going to use the tub moulds for body fab?

Dave Craddock

[ianashdown]

Hi Dave,

No, whilst dimensionally very similar this is a completely new set of surfaces designed to fit around the required space frame. The body splits etc are all designed to work with a space frame and F1000 rules etc. DSR project is taking a back seat until either the F1000 is complete of it is otherwise funded.

Ian

[carnut169]

Looks great but very much like the Phoenix. I wonder if the market will support all of these new cars....

I'd like to see someone step up and offer a turn-key conversion package. You've got what... 10 companies building new FBs? I could imagine interest in a service that would do as much or as little as the customer wants... I'll drop off my FC and the service could even include parting and selling the Pinto, LD etc. These parts would reduce the cost to convert. Something like a shopping list...
IE-
Strip down to part and sell: $500
Framework: $1000
Blast and paint: $500
New bellypan: $500
Install and plumb motor (including harness): $1,000
Stock motor: $2500
Quaiffe: $3200
(or) Spool: $1000

yada yada.
That way the customer might decide to strip & sell himself, or do nothing except pick up his ready to race FB. Prices may have to based on the ease of the conversion and vary by donor car.

There could even be an option for a new Dean motor or a used Ebay motor. The choices could be nearly endless.

[ianashdown]

Hi Sean,

I'm afraid I have no interest in conversions. My interest, and the sole reason I'm doing this, is to design the 'bitchin-ist' little car I can - without any more compromises than necessary. I think my experience will bring some ideas not yet seen on these level cars, and I really just want to start with a clean sheet. Will the market support however many manufacturers? No, probably not. But that is how the darwinism of racing works. Those with the better mousetrap will survive, those how don't will disapear.

Having said all that, I can definately see your point, and I think that someone with low overhaed could make a nice little business doing conversions etc.

The only contribution we might be able to make would be the parts that we will offer to sell to any builder/converter.

I think conceptually the Phoenix and our car are quite different. They are also way ahead of us!

Ian

[Stan Clayton]

Sharp looking car, Ian!

[Matt Conrad]

This will be a very exciting class...the interest grows every day!

Ian,

I could send you our first concept images from Solidworks, particularly from the direct frontal shot...and you would be hard pressed to tell the difference...otherwise thay are somewhat different. Actually, the similarities to the Tatuus-built Renault F2000 are more evident to me.

Welcome to the fray....

Matt Conrad
Phoenix Race Works, LLC

[Sean Maisey]

Sean O.,

I can tell you that commercial conversions are coming (and soon). I have just committed to working with a well known open wheel designer/constructor to be the crash test dummy for a commercial conversion kit for the 1998 and later Van Diemens.

The builder will be publishing an official release shortly, and I won't spoil his thunder, but the concept is to keep as much as possible of the original car, thus allowing a VERY cost effective conversion with little or no owner fabrication required. I think we will kick some serious @ss!

More to come very shortly. We plan to create some online blogs to cover the builder and owner progress. These are exciting times for open wheel racing. I think F1000 can breath some life into open wheel racing in this country.

My 'donor car' is a yellow and black 99/03 Van Diemen. I plan to deck it out in the Jordon "Buzzin Hornets" livery. I think that is appropriate for 13k rpm F1 replicars... When it is done I will run every SE/NE left in the season...

Sean (M.)

[Lee Stohr]

The front of Ian's car is quite different from the Phoenix. You can see how much more Ian's frame is raised off the ground from the dash forward. Ian hasn't revealed his suspension yet - will it be a zero keel like ours and almost all the new F1 cars?

[Matt Conrad]

Well, here's a "concept" image dated from October 11th of 2006 done by our engineer, Dustin Wright....seems pretty similar too me...obviously we hadn't resolved "chassis issues" yet but....man looks very familiar to me...



...and maybe it's just me...is this F1 or F1000...750 hp vs. 180 hp....big difference.

Matt Conrad
Phoenix Race Works, LLC

[ianashdown]

Matt,
I know the Phoenix is a mythical Bird, but just how do you get a car to levitate like that?!

Seriously though, that is scarily similar. Following your progress has been extremely interesting, I'm sure you will have a very nice car at the finish. I think your engineering is also very well developed.

I've never really looked at the Tatuus F2000, but as a product of the English Racing Industry, my influences are mostly European.

I agree with your comment "F1 or F1000"; These cars will be so cool on track, they'll look good, sound fantastic, and thould move like "s**t off a chrome shovel!"

Lee,

The front is quite raised, and enables some quite interesting aerodynamics, as you know. The lower wishbone is mounted very close to the centerline and is mostly within the 'chin splitter'

Ian

[Matt Conrad]

Ian,

The levitation thing is a secret......

Matt Conrad
Phoenix Race Works, LLC

[Billy Wight]

The front of Ian's car is quite different from the Phoenix. You can see how much more Ian's frame is raised off the ground from the dash forward. Ian hasn't revealed his suspension yet - will it be a zero keel like ours and almost all the new F1 cars?

So, by going with a zero-keel design and a raised footbox, you are possibly sacraficing suspension performance (a very high front roll center) for aerodynamic gains. In F1 this is the obvious choice because of the high average speeds with aero being the dominant factor, but with aerodynamic quantities being proportional to the square of velocity, perhaps Matt and Dustin decided to sacrafice an aerodynamic advantage for a gain in mechanical grip from suspension performance. (The average speed for F1000 will be much lower than in F1.) That's an interesting part of engineering, deciding what you will compromise in your design with the hopes of a bigger gain in the end. I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens on the track, it's a lot more quantitative than bench racing on the forums...

Here's a good link for those who want more information of different keel designs in F1:

http://www.scarbsf1.com/keels/formula_1_keels.htm

-Billy Wight

[Lee Stohr]

The roll center can be anywhere you want it with a zero keel and upward inclined a-arms.
Camber change is not good over several inches of suspension travel, but there is not much front suspension travel on modern cars.

[ianashdown]

Hi,

I’ll confess to not having had time to fully explore and understand the zero-keel driven geometry, but as the F1 teams were driven to it by the ever raising of the front wing by regulation, I didn’t find a strong case to go that way. My geometry is conventional in design and I guess if you have to ‘classify’ it I would say it is a single-keel design.

The lower front wing position and the wishbone picking up on the underside of the chassis still give a good exhaust volume for the front wing, without having to compromise anything too much. As Billy states, in F1 aero is by far the most dominant design driver, at the speeds of an F1000 I like to gain as much from the mechanical grip as possible. One concern I have with the zero-keel driven geometry are the jacking forces due to side load. I’m not sure if they are a significant factor or not, and that is partly why I didn’t go that route. Having said that I also agree with Lee, that with so little wheel movement the traditional criteria for a suspension geometry – camber change, scrub, etc – are almost unimportant

[Lincspeed]

I am surprised no one has commented on your lower rear wing element. Either you have done a lot of CFD development or you are mimicing some F1 and F3 designs, hoping they will work and justify the expense of a very complex surface wing.

Nice looking overal design, it will be interesting to see how all these cars work relative to each other.

Clark

[Mike Devins]

Thought that this may be of interest

[ianashdown]

Hi Clark,

The lower wing is something I spent days working on in the wind tunnel for a previous project with similar difuser dimensions. In that instance it worked very well, but it was very critical to position, angle of attack etc. The surfacing looks complex but is actually very simple. It's a constant section airofoil swept along a curve. Being in the composites business making parts like this is very easy for me. It's really no more difficult to lay-up a wing like this than a straight one - well maybe a bit more uni @ 45 deg for increased torsion - but its not difficult to make at all. The only increased cost is the aluminum billet that well machine the mold from. Because of the sweep it will be a larger billet, but that's all. It doesn't even cost much more to machine the mold; it's basically the same surface area. This is an area where I can leverage my main business to give a bit more than is normal for this level car. Making it in S-Glass instead of carbon peresents a variation, but not too much of a challenge, it'll be a bit heavier though. It the same with the front wing, it's no more difficult or expensive so why not do it. It will make our car a little more distinctive I hope!

Ian

[Billy Wight]

The roll center can be anywhere you want it with a zero keel and upward inclined a-arms.
Camber change is not good over several inches of suspension travel, but there is not much front suspension travel on modern cars.

How do you find the kinematic roll center then? Do you just project the control arms backwards from normal to find the instant centers? (if you project them normally, they diverge and never intersect) Also how much front wheel travel does your F1000 have (bump/droop)? Thanks in advance-

Billy Wight

[IDSRacing]

Ian,

whats the thinking behind the raised center section of the front wing?

thanks
(a different) Ian

[Lincspeed]

WOW! machined aluminum billet molds! For club racers - impressive. I think of all the hours we spend on hand fabed plugs for various race car parts, and feel rather primitive... I suppose if I had access to the tools, working with data would be much easier. That's the way it was when I was with GM, but I couldn't figure out how to take it with me when I retired...

Anyway, more power to you Ian - sounds like a winning formula to me.

Clark

[ianashdown]

Hi Clark,

I believe in applying technology in every way possible to improve quality and reduce cost. The downside is the invetment in CAD design (it's me and I'm cheap!) and the tooling. No way around the cost of tooling - good tooling costs good money! I have a few vedors that are enthusiastic about this project and want all the aircraft work I can send their way, so they'll keep the pricing as low as possible. The investment in tooling, from molds to casting patterns, is all driving towards being able to build a high quality car at as low a price as possible. The Front Upright casting for example is $65 in quantity, the problem is the $5K in pattern work. I'm also hoping that we can make up the quantities by offering parts to home builders. I think we can help those that can and wish to build their own car by supplying some of the more difficult parts, along with full drawings, it may help the series as a whole.

Hi Ian,

There are a few reasons for raising the center section of the front wing. It helps with pitch sensitivity, helps to provide mass flow of high energy air to the chin splitter, underwing etc, but most of all it looks cool!

Ian

[glenn cooper]

Those images are great.
One thing, I'm not sure I'm fully understanding: The image on the left F105 appears to have NO upper A arms. Either that, or they are very thin and are being obscured by the toe link. Is this set up akin to a McPherson strut type tin top deal w/ only a lower A arm to locate everything??

Sometimes I feel a little out of the engineering mindset loop most everyone on here has (except maybe Sean O' - D'oh!), then I awake and realize it's true!

Caveman Coop

Sean O - In regard to your idea of folks cranking out conversions, how many times must I tell you - STOP MAKING SENSE!!

I held my breath for quite awhile for that exact thing to happen; quite brilliant if ya ask me.

Sean M - Sounds cool, it will be interesting to see what the deal is.
Good on ya for being named the official factory tester!

[Rennie Clayton]

Coop,

The upper a-arm is behind the toe link.


Cheers,
Rennie

[Daryl DeArman]

*deleted* typing at the same time as Rennie.

For anyone who is struggling to grasp this whole keel design discussion, such as myself--this may help:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_keel

[Matt Conrad]

I know it may seem cool to emulate current F1 designs in F1000 cars, but I think there's something HUGE being missed in all of this....

1. We don't have a mandated front wing height that has driven many of the changes to the front nose and front suspension in F1.
2. 230 mph aero is WAY different from 130 mph aero....and...
3. 750 HP isssues are differnt than 180 HP issues.
4. F1 teams have budgets in the millions of dollars for car design and aero testing.
5. There's no consensus even among the F1 teams as to which theory is correct....in fact some teams have changed designs with the seasons.

We have chosen to go with some proven aero concepts and suspension geometry that is pretty solid in both design and practice. I don't think any of us want to be spending thousands of dollars in adding the "wizzy bits of the week" to our cars every time Toyota or Ferrari sticks them on an F1 car....

Matt Conrad
Phoenix Race Works, LLC

[stonebridge20]

I know it may seem cool to emulate current F1 designs in F1000 cars, but I think there's something HUGE being missed in all of this....

1. We don't have a mandated front wing height that has driven many of the changes to the front nose and front suspension in F1.
2. 230 mph aero is WAY different from 130 mph aero....and...
3. 750 HP isssues are differnt than 180 HP issues.
4. F1 teams have budgets in the millions of dollars for car design and aero testing.
5. There's no consensus even among the F1 teams as to which theory is correct....in fact some teams have changed designs with the seasons.

We have chosen to go with some proven aero concepts and suspension geometry that is pretty solid in both design and practice. I don't think any of us want to be spending thousands of dollars in adding the "wizzy bits of the week" to our cars every time Toyota or Ferrari sticks them on an F1 car....

Matt Conrad
Phoenix Race Works, LLC

"Wizzy bits of the week" That got a laugh out of me and a few flash backs also ! You just have to love when you buy a brand new racecar and the manufacturer tells you the week after that you need the "trick" stuff if you really want the car to "work"! I guess that's how I ended up with a loft full of "un-wizzy bits of the week"

[Dave]

Hi Clark,

I'm also hoping that we can make up the quantities by offering parts to home builders. I think we can help those that can and wish to build their own car by supplying some of the more difficult parts, along with full drawings, it may help the series as a whole.

I like that idea.

[Lee Stohr]

F1 average lap speeds are around 140mph, not 200. They make some of that speed on the straights with their 800hp. The corner speeds of F1 cars are not that far from what we do. Most modern F1 tracks have eliminated the really fast corners.
F1 rules are different than ours, but the trick is to figure out what applies to us and what doesn't. It would be silly to ignore the results of millions of dollars of F1 wind tunnel work.

[VehDyn]

The beauty of this class is it not only has a lecture, it also has a lab. So we will get to put rubber to asphalt and see what works and what doesn't. Word is that the final is a real bitch, though.

[ianashdown]

I have to agree with some of each of the previous posts. Matt is correct in going with proven aero and suspension, I think we have done the same. Having said that I think that the differences between F1 cars and F1000 cars are not as great as you might think. They are about the same size, the average speed differential is not so big (Lee), and both run on road tracks (no ovals). The differences: tires, power, $$$$, and tires!

But we can benefit from all the dollars they spend. The cheapest R&D you can do is looking at other cars. The difficulty is knowing if you have fully understood their concept, and therefore which idea might be applicable to your application and which won't be. At the end of the day, air is air - whichever continent you're on, and they are both 4 wheeled vehicles with similar purposes. You'd be crazy if you didn't look and copy some of the ideas. I know I have in the past and will again!

I like the 'wizzy bit of the week'; it's what kept me looking at the cars week after week for so many years! It exactly why I'd rather look at week old dog turd than a spec car. We will be having ongoing development of the car and will 'offer' the parts to all (if there are any!) customers. You don't have to buy it! On the other hand in todays world where is so possible to quantify what the benefit of a given part will be, we will not be selling any 'snake oil' parts! I know that has happened in the past - not to mention any names........(no one on this side of the pond). Our business will depend on building the best car we possible can and getting them to the font of the grid wherever possible. If we don't have the best car out there to start with we must work hard to try and develop it into the best car. All the time Lee and Matt and everyone else will be doing the same. This is what it's all about kids!

This catagory has the potential to be huge. The concept is great (with a few exceptions), the costs are reasonable, and we can build this into something truly spectacular. But we, and by this I mean the manufacturers (not sure I can include ourselves yet!), should never forget the story of the Golden Goose. If we get greedy, we could kill this before it has a chance to flourish. There is - fortunately I think - the grounding element of the converted and home built cars. They will aways keep the cost element grounded so that manufacturer build cars can be more expensive, but not a whole lot more.

Now we need to work on getting some exposure for the races, actual spectators etc, then just watch where this can go!

Ian
That's just my opinion, I could be wrong!

[Matt Conrad]

Just because we didn't copy the zero keel design from F1 doesn't mean we didn't look at ideas from F1 cars....or any other open-wheeled cars. When we looked at a design for this car....everything was on the table.

Dustin (designer) is a very good "student" in evaluating what other car designs are trying to accomplish and has a pretty good sense of what works (not to mention degrees in Mechanical Engineering and Aerospace Engineeering). He is very "in tune" with F1 trends and he follows it very closely. I know he wants to address this issue....I just think he's pretty busy right now.....speaking of which....

I want to publicly congratulate Dustin as he has been hired by a newly formed Indy Pro Series team and, in addition to all the work on the F1K.07, he's been very busy helping to get the car built and ready for the season which starts pretty soon. Their initial tests at PIR were pretty impressive right out of the box.

Matt Conrad
Phoenix Race Works, LLC

[Lee Stohr]

The beauty of this class is it not only has a lecture, it also has a lab. So we will get to put rubber to asphalt and see what works and what doesn't. Word is that the final is a real bitch, though.

Stohr's have been putting rubber down the last few days at Sebring
Ken Tyrrell's new silver car arrived from Portland, just barely in time. Ken is running around 1:09 on the short course. Tom Shelton did a few 1:07's yesterday. Both say there's lot's left. Apparently it's a crowded race group. Craig at Stohr Cars North America reports that a good baseline setup has been achieved.

[Cole Morgan]

Morgan is ready for his seat to be molded...what'd ya say Lee???

[carnut169]

Morgan is ready for his seat to be molded...what'd ya say Lee???

Lee thought it was a good idea until Morgan started talking in 3rd person....


Seriuosly though.... wonder what that Swift is worth? $$$$$


A Stohr (or one of the others) would make a great graduation present. Sr?