Seeking advice on new old cars

[pst]

Hi folks,

I'm in Michigan and, as some of you know, have been debating which (C)FC car to buy to get my feet wet -- preferably around the 8-10k range. Obviously advice is subjective, but I'd at least like to know some basic impressions, or anything to watch out for or avoid.

The 87-90 Reynards seem to be a popular choice, there's 2-3 local folks I know who have them, and parts are apparently quite easy to find from certain local shops. So a definite advantage due to accessible knowledge & help.

The early 90s Van Diemens also seem to be in roughly the same pricepoint, and similar performance, however I don't think I know anyone local with one, and I've never seen one up close, so not sure whether the differences (ex: suspension) are worthwhile, or just add complexity. I've heard a number of opinions, but nothing yet from actual owners/drivers.

Finally, a couple people have suggested the Vector MG95 that's currently for sale local to me. Depending on the price flexibility, I'm openminded, though I'm concerned that if I bent anything on there, the repair costs might rapidly exceed the amount of fun I was having.

Brand aside, I guess my primary concerns are class and parts availability. To be clear, being a total greenhorn, I'm not planning to be raking in the trophies, it's just a matter of by how much I'm last. At this point I'm content with seat time, fun, and not breaking anything that can't be fixed in a few days, either on the car or myself so whether I'm slightly last in CFC or *really* last in FC doesn't matter to me right now. But I'd like to be able to grow beyond getting repeatedly trounced, which is probably easier in CFC. I doubt I'll ever travel much beyond the region, but I guess one never knows. No idea what's on the region's mind here about letting newer cars in, so that sort of impacts my desire to look at 90s cars.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to a winter of stress and intrigue while searching for "the one"... so please reply here or PM if you have any pearls of wisdom, quirks, etc, associated with any of the above, or of course some idea I didn't consider!

Thanks, and who knows... maybe with a little luck I'll see a few of you in the spring!

[Steve Demeter]

You are right n about the Reynards.

there are lots of them out there, lots of knowledgeable people willing to help and parts availability is excellent.

They are generally thought of as very easy and friendly cars to drive.

I would heartily recommend one as a first car for someone getting into FC. The added advantages of CFC are a double bonus.

The 1990 VD is an excellent car, although a bit hard to find. The 91 to about 95 Van Diemans are not a whole lot faster than the Reynards (I bet I get flamed for this one) and move you out of CFC into a very last spot.

The Vector was an excellent car in it's day and is still quite competitive on a regional level. But as with any "orphan" (not to be insulting to Vector but the support for them is just not there when compared to Reynards) car, parts availability might be a bit tough.

MY 2c.

[Purple Frog]

Ditto what Steve said.

I've posted thousands upon thousands of words in posts going back 5 years about budgets. A few worth reading. Basically remember the cost of the car is only the tip of the iceberg.

SE Michigan sort of puts you in prime Reynard territory, what with Averill et al nearby.

[LAJ]

You are a lucky guy !! I would buy one of the late 80s Reynards and then you will have a lot of local knowlage and a great series (Great Lakes) to drive in !!! So when you go to the track and if you have any trouble there will be parts and I am sure help aroud that you can tap into!! ALWAYS A GOOD THING!!!
Check out the photos on my web site about the July Great Lakes race at Mid-Ohio!! I think next year there will be maybe up to 10 Reynards at some of the Great Lakes races!!
Lee
http://metroevents.com/jordaneng/index.htm

[FC63F]

PST,

I see that sitting in my Reynard at Waterford a few weeks back was helpful. Reynards are great and yes there are a bunch of them but i would also suggest considering (even for a moment) the following CFC alternatives in no particular order. All have their strengths

1. Crossle 63/68/71 - Parts still available from the UK factory back to model 19's

2. Swift DB-3/6 - Fast cars with aftermarket parts availability

3. Euroswift SE3's - fast cars with aftermarket parts available

4. Citation 90 SF's - Factory still making parts in Indiana

5. Van Diemens 86-90 - 90SF's are very very quick - Patts availability good

6. Reynard 84/86 and 87-90 - Lots available and parts available

I would note that at Waterford we have routinely the following cars

1. Reynard 87-90 SF

2. Euroswift SE-3

3. Swift DB-3

4. Crossle 63F


MY final peice of advice is that the best car is the car you see with your eyes running on the track today. PS's comment on cost is critical here - buying the car is one thing, maintaining it is another and a car that has been sitting is on balance likely to be real expensive to bring up to standard after purhase.

If you are visiting Waterford this week end - let Steve Myers or myself know and we will put your name on the crew list

David Keep

Reynard 90SF

[Larry]

The 87+ Reynard is your best choice by far! Keith Averill is local, and can help with any problem you may have. He also has a good supply of spares, and what he doesn't have, I can provide.

While the other cars listed are all good cars, the difference is in availability and price of spare parts. It's nice to have pieces available from the UK, but then you need to add one week and at least $100 for shipping (more often shipping will be closer to $200). For an item like a nose, the shipping cost may be $500!

In addition, the 87+ Reynard is easy to work on and simple to set up. It's a great car for a club racer; easy to drive, easy to repair, and spares are plentiful (except the gearbox casting).

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products

[Westroc]

We are currently running three of these cars in the Great Lakes FC/CFC Championship.

HOWEVER, (and Jim my kill me for posting this), we may have one going up for sale.

Jim just purchased a DB4 Formula Atlantic and has spent the last two weeks tweeking it. I'm sure it won't be running until next season but I'm not sure you couldn't convince him to sell one his Reynards. The black cars on Lee Jordans web site are the cars I am referring to.

Anyway, if you want info you can contact us on this site or at our email address. westrocracing@sympatico.ca

Lynn Roberts

[pst]

I need to admit, I'm sort of surprised (though not overly so) at how overwhelming the pro-Reynard response has been. How difficult would it be to "go it alone" so to speak on, say, a 90 Van Diemen, not that one of those is currently for sale on the forums or anything....

I guess due to my newbieness, I'm not sure what I'd be giving up. Obviously the knowledge and bumming spare parts and readily available service are all good benefits. Are those "convenience" features, or would I be making my life more expensive and stressful if it weren't for that?

On one hand, I'd think it'd make for a more interesting field if there were more than two brands of car on the track... but at the same time, no point in making my life miserable, toward that end.

Thanks for all the suggestions!

[LAJ]

A RF90 Van Dieman would be a welcome site at a Great Lakes Race!!! It looks like a great car too!!
Lee

[FC63F]

PST,

The reality in CFC land that Reynard built a lot of cars from 84-90 for the US market before he went off to formula one, Champ Car etc. Reynard abandoned FC in about 1990 and Van Diemen started to really push. As a result, 1991-1995 VD's are very available and well understood by the users. the 1990 VD is very similar to the 91-95 cars and I think many major parts are interchangable. The concensus is that the 1990 propoerly set up is a killer car and the one in the classifieds is a really nice and well set up car. I saw it at Grattan where the driver/car combination was dominating.

I do not want to discourage you from being unique. As you know, I drove a 1986 Crossle 63F for seven years reasonably competitively - the car was much faster than the driver. It is now run by others who are peddling along very nicely. Harvy Schmidt has won several races wtih his lovely 68F and Paul Burk hss been real fast with his Euroswift SE3. There are lots of fast combinations out there - the choice to buy a Reynard for me was more psychology than anything else - I just like how those cars look and the engineering - the gravy is that Averill is local and has lots of insight into set up and parts can be shared etc.

If that RF90 lights your fire have at it! Go for it!!!

David Keep

[Phil Picard]

[SIZE=3] Reynard’s are definitely the way to go in your circumstance. You are not far from Keith Averill , who is one of the foremost Reynard guru’s in this country. He will help you, A great guy. I have 2 and they are excellent cars. I’m sorry to be parting with them, oh did I mention they are for sale ok,ok,ok that was a shameless plug. But BUY a Reynard. Where ever you get it from. [/SIZE]

[pst]

[SIZE=3] Reynard’s are definitely the way to go in your circumstance. [/SIZE]

Now tell me how you really feel.

Actually, since you mention it, I've seen your cars advertised too... been wanting to resolve the marque issue before chasing anything sorta half-heartedly, as I sort of made that mistake last time (of "well, I wonder if..." and "let me find a trailer..."). And certain parts of NY are a loooooong drive away.

I see the 96 VD offered at 12k sold. The 90 is being offered at what's probably a "fair" price, but not one I can readily afford. I got a chance to sit in an RF93 today (thanks! ) and got a little more feel for how those are put together. I found it strangely tight around the knees... not impossibly so, but it just struck me that there wasn't a lot of room to wiggle (not even consciously, but just as you get bounced around). But do like the cars.

Anyway, I'm feeling armed with knowledge! Thanks to you all for the feedback. Definitely I don't mean to pick on anyone or any car, but just like to challenge people to come up with a dissenting opinion if one exists out there.

[Scotty]

PST, you're probably closer to getting a F2000 than I am.

But I sure have some questions concerning the whole classing system of FC.......

You have F2000 (cars after 1995)

CFC (cars before 1995)

F2000 - Zetec, that run a 2Litre, but are classed as FA ?

And the talk of people saying that they're thinking of getting a F2000 and converting to F1000? or Zetec?
Do F1000's always use FC chassis? Do Zetecs?

So, does that mean FC is on it's way out? Or, CFC? What do these conversions cost?
Will you "have to convert" (be assimilated) Should older chassis be converted? Would you want to?

I'm so confused.........

[Westroc #19]

Since getting your feet wet is your first thought, (8-10k), all you need to consider is 90 and under car. Any car between 90-96 will reqiurer an engineer, like Lee Jordan. http://metroevents.com/jordaneng tazio@metroevents.com

We purchased our first Reynard SF88 in 04. We have since, purchased two more CFC Reynards and have the time of our lives. Reynards are easy to set up and control. We are still serching for that sweet spot, but we are having a blast tring to figure it out.

The V.D. RF90 that every one is talking about is the cats a$$ for CFC in Cen Div. That car, in particular, is the benchmark for each and everyone of us competing in Cen Div regionals. Thankfully, they only compete in four races a season, or it would be a moot point for all of us.

The puck is in your end, so break out like Bobby Orr, and score.(sorry, that time of season again!) Make sure you talk to everyone that runs at Waterford Hills MI., THEY KNOW. IF YOU WANT TO GET YOUR FEET WET, GO TO WATERFORD HILLS. IF YOUR FAST AT WATERFORD, YOU CAN GO FAST ANYWHERE.

We also want more competitors in the Great Lakes FC/CFC Championships. Fourteen in CFC is not enough.

[pst]

Since getting your feet wet is your first thought, (8-10k), all you need to consider is 90 and under car.

True. Some of the 90s cars for 10000-12500 (like the "light red" and blue one) seem to be in good shape, but it's a tricky area.

The 90 is precariously close to affordable, but not quite yet. I've been getting "and for 10% more..." syndrome since about $7500. But it's worth a few weeks of income to get something I'll be happy with, as long as it doesn't affect the ongoing upkeep.

I've heard the stories with the '90. I'd sort of feel guilty taking a top car and wasting it with my ineptitude. But if I win a $5000 lottery or something, I'm sure I'd be satisfied with the car for the rest of my natural life. Or at least until 2020 or so, when I can finally affort a '98, heh. Then I could sell the '90 as Vintage!

[Westroc]

Our cars are priced way above your budget but will be glad to help where/when we can. I will say this from experience and hopefully this advice is kept in the forefront. I used to drive a Crossle 62 a formula ford at the national level. A car that frankly was not up to the task because the car was just not capable. This was done during what would be called the absolute heyday. Competing against Bruce May, Kevin West and alot of very good guys. I would carry that car into the top ten scaring myself all the way when I didn't throw it off. If you buy something that isn't up to it you will not have fun you will spend money and if the car is "different" you will either have to have spares or go home when something breaks. Yes the 90 V/D may be an option but if you're talking about the one that was at Gratton in May remember that was a car that was prepped by a pro shop and driven by a guy with alot of seat time. It is also true that he basically SMOKED just about everybody. That is not your situation. Be careful on your chassis choice. BUY THE BEST CAR YOU CAN AFFORD. I think it would be best IMHO to buy a reynard. I would buy that rather than a /90 to /95 V/D in a heartbeat. Why? Well the look at the stats over the last couple years. We beat them regularily. You should be behind one in Turn 1 at Mid Ohio. They are usually all over the place. Yes I am opinionated but look Ive done it the other way and it doesn't work no matter what you do. I went to the Runoffs at R/A with no intention of buying another car and came home with what was arguably the fastest Swift in the country in Formula Ford. !8th to second and closing fast. Making a long story short it did not fit my driving style at all. Coming out of Karts I NEED a car that will brake and turn at the same time. You will have difficulty doing that consistently with a Swft. I sold the car because I HATED the thing. Some of the V/D drivers will tell you privatley one on one that they would sell the car . The front wing doesn't work except for the secondary winglets which is why they put them on. The front wing on the Reynard works too good. That's one difference.