runnoffs schedule

[cliff]

Not sure when this happened but I just noticed the groups for qualifying and we (FF) are grouped with the F500 for 2 of the sessions. That is hor$e$hit. I wish Bryan was back with SCCA as he would not have let those bozo's do that. Those cars have received plenty of favors from SCCA relative to speed, and on Topeka's track, they are virtually the same speed. That sucks.

[Marshall Mauney]

Not sure when this happened but I just noticed the groups for qualifying and we (FF) are grouped with the F500 for 2 of the sessions. That is hor$e$hit. I wish Bryan was back with SCCA as he would not have let those bozo's do that. Those cars have received plenty of favors from SCCA relative to speed, and on Topeka's track, they are virtually the same speed. That sucks.

Trust me - the F500 guys aren't any happier about it than you are. It looks like they combined quite a few grouping pairs, so it's not just FF/F500.

Agreed, though - it sucks from both perspectives.

That said, though, what 'favors' have the F500s received? Weights have actually gone up, not down (a 493 Rotax car is now up to 850 lbs). What's really changed is that the designers in the class have figured out how to build a suspension that works.....

[John Robinson II]

I dont remember the rule, but with 29 fords and 21 F5s, will that exceed the track maximum? At least it is the last 2 sessions and not the first ones.

[Dave Gomberg]

[Edited to reflect registrations as of Sept 9 at 5pm EDT. I have not re-sorted the classes or combined groups. This gives some idea of how much things changed since the orginal post on August 23.]

This isn't meant to make you guys "happy" with the situation, but based on the current registrations, things look like this (the "X" indicates a class that runs some sessions combined with another). (Sorry, but formatting a table in this forum seems to be impossible.)

Dave

SM    73                  SM         73
FV    48                  GT1/GT2    56
EP    46                  GTL/GT3    56
SRF    46                 FF/F5      67
GT2    30    X            GP/HP      52
T2    35                  FV         48
FP    38                  T3/SSB      54
GT3    31    X            EP          46
DSR    38                 SRF         46
AS    35                  FA/FM       44
FF    37    X             CSR/S2      39
FC    27                  T2           35
GP    27    X             FP           38
GT1    26    X            DSR          38
T1    23                  AS           35
F5    30    X             FC           27
HP    25    X             T1          23
SSB    31    X            SSC          33
SSC    33            
GTL    25    X        
T3    23    X        
CSR    20    X        
FM    26    X        
FA    18    X        
S2    19    X  

(Sorted as of Sept 9)
SM    73        SM    73
FV    48        FF/F5    67
EP    46        GT1/GT2    56
SRF    46        GTL/GT3    56
DSR    38        T3/SSB    54
FP    38        GP/HP    52
FF    37    x    FV    48
AS    35        EP    46
T2    35        SRF    46
SSC    33        FA/FM    44
GT3    31    x    CSR/S2    39
SSB    31    x    DSR    38
F500    30    x    FP    38
GT2    30    x    AS    35
FC    27        T2    35
GP    27    x    SSC    33
FM    26    x    FC    27
GT1    26    x    T1    23
GTL    25    x        
HP    25    x        
T1    23            
T3    23    x        
CSR    20    x        
S2000    19    x        
FA    18    x        
    810

[stonebridge20]

If you F/F guys think you have it bad,......Look at us GT3 guys. We share EVERY session with GTLight. The ONLY session we have bye ourselves is the race !

Agnif (former F/F, now GT3)

[Steve Maxwell]

Figures!!

[Art Smith]

in combination with the other curious written and non-written communications from Topeka this year, the FF practice, qualifing, and National Championship Race schedule confirms for me that FF is totally OUT-OF-FAVOR with the crowd currently residing in Topeka. accepting for a minute that I may be having a seior moment, when was the last time FF raced for the National Championship at the crack of dawn on SATURDAY morning???? spend a few minutes thinking about the data Dave Gromberg posted: DSR-30; AS-29; FF-29........; and FF gets to share the track with F500's!!! the remainder of National Championship Race schedule is also fascinating: GT1 at 24 on Sunday morning prior to lunch; GP at 24 on Sunday afternoon late; GTL at 20 Sunday morning; FA at 17 Sunday afternoon as the last race; ...............

BEWARE of Jayhawks bearing "help"!!!!!


Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

[bryancohnracing]

Thanks Cliff!

You got me laughing.....

The original schedule I submitted was based strickly on numbers. Those classes that had under 25 cars in 2005 got paired up with other classes that had under 25 cars. As I recall there was one class that was under but had no match(meaning I could not find a compatible class to pair it with).

I did the exact same thing for the 2006 schedule back in December so the CRB and BoD could go over them (I think I submitted 4 schedule options) and give me feedback/input.

Long story short, classes like HP/GP were grouped together, as were GT1/GT2 and so on.
The numbers I used are the ones published in the Results book every year. No secrets. Count the number of qualified drivers. That was all I did.

I guess the some guys complained long enough or loud enough to get everything changed.

Such is life when the loudest complainers get the attention.

BTW, I'm not saying what I submitted was right or the best option. It was justifiable on a numbers basis. It had compatible cars running together on track.

In 1998 when I started as Chair of the Formula Car/Sports Racer Ad Hoc Commitee we were 38% (I'm doing this from memory, so cut me a bit of slack here) of the TOTAL population of SCCA National racers.
That number is somewhere in the mid 20% range now.

I agree that formula cars have suffered from a lack of attention by the various boards and commitees. Instead of leading the folks that were of the formula car mindset were busy slicing up the pie for themselves....

That comment should stir the pot....

Stan, you along with Dave are doing a great job. Your racers first and your concern for the racer shows. Keep the faith man!

Bryan

[TimW]

when was the last time FF raced for the National Championship at the crack of dawn on SATURDAY morning????

Perhaps its a perspective thing. Even in New York 10:00a is not the crack of dawn. My perspective is that a 10:00a race gets me back to Chicago Saturday night. Good for me.

I do remember when FF was the only race that mattered; the reality is that that is not the case any more. We need to first acknowledge that before we either strive to return as such or accept what its become.

[mblanc]

FF 35 drivers Class List2Craig Jones - zionvsville, IN Indy - CE van diemen rf98 ff 1998Blk Sponsored by: ShiftyWorld.com/Section 8 Superbike 3James Lee - miami, FL Fla - SE van diemen rf 86 1986WhtRed Sponsored by: Goodyear 4Cliff Johnson - leawood, KS KC - MW piper 0Red 5Mark Blythe - edwardsville, IL StL - MW van diemen rf98 1998Blk Sponsored by: Blythe Pest Control, Inc 6Stan Townes - santa clara, CA AZ - SP swift db1 1984Blu 7Mike Sauce - arlington, TX Tex - SW sauce ff svm 1 2001Blk Sponsored by: Sportscar Performance 8Marc Blanc - new glarus, WI Bhv - CE swift db16 2008Wht Sponsored by: CARQUEST AutoParts SchulzAutomotive 9Doug Hobby - sharon, CT NEng - NE swift db-1 1985Org Sponsored by: EVANS COOLING SYSTEMS 11Harry Sauce - fishers, IN Tex - SW swift db-6 0Blk Sponsored by: American Lite Co./Goodyear 12James Michael - fort worth, TX Tex - SW swift db3-1 1989Blu Sponsored by: Berlousche Enginering 17John Copple - golden, CO Colo - RM vandeimen ff 2003Wht 19John Robinson Ii - st cloud, FL CFR - SE swift db-6 1992Red 20Russell Ruedisueli - rochester hills, MI Det - CE vandiemen ff 1999GryYlw Sponsored by: Williams Race Engines, Goodyear 21Arthur Foster - salem, CT NEng - NE van diem ff 2000Red 23Gerald Barrett - edmond, OK Okla - MW swift db-6 1993Red Sponsored by: Louis Systems 25Timothy Wise - chicago, IL Chi - CE swift db6 1993Wht Sponsored by: Goodyear/StopTech Brakes 26Wes Allen - lexington, KY CKy - CE piper df-2 1992BluBlk Sponsored by: Lexair Inc.,Williams Engines 27Gary Payne - columbia, MO StL - MW reynard 88f ff 1988Red Sponsored by: Nydic MRI of America 28Tim Koch - stilwell, KS KC - MW citation ff 1990Red 37C. William Kephart - colorado springs, CO Colo - RM swift db6 1990Ylw 58Lawrence Hendrickson - pottstown, PA Fla - SE swift db-6 1990BluSlvRed Sponsored by: Berks Homes 66Mark Keller - snohomish, WA Nwst - NP swift db-1 1983OrgBlu Sponsored by: Blackjack Racing 72Thomas Schwietz - winchester, VA WDC - NE piper 2005Org 75Donald Baggett - duluth, GA Atl - SE swift db1 1984SlvYlw Sponsored by: flex-comp, inc. 77Bruce Lindstrand - darien, WI Milw - CE van diemen rf92 1992Wht Sponsored by: Lindstrand Motorsports, Inc 78Larry Bangert - issaquah, WA Nwst - NP swift db-1 1984Blk Sponsored by: R & A Manufacturing 81Ken Rozeboom - crockett, CA SanF - NP swift db1 1985BluYlw 82David Livingston - nashville, TN MidS - MW swift db-1 0YlwBlu Sponsored by: ThermaMasters 83John Vlasis - milwaukee, WI Milw - CE piper df-2 1996Red Sponsored by: Trailer Leasing 88James Hakewill - san jose, CA SanF - NP van diemen rf00 2000YlwBlk Sponsored by: ARC International 95Randell Mashburn - atoka, OK Tex - SW swift db1 1985Wht Sponsored by: Western Auto/Radio Shack 05Gale Stokkers - centerport, NY NY - NE swift db-6 db-6 1990WhtBlk 06Todd Bardwell - gaithersburg, MD WDC - NE swift db-1 1984Ylw Sponsored by: D & M Roofing / Hoosier tire 06Todd Bardwell - gaithersburg, MD WDC - NE swift db-1 1984Ylw Sponsored by: D & M Roofing / Hoosier tire 08Steven Maxwell - middlebury, VT NY - NE piper df-5 2000RedSlvBlk Sponsored by: cce-goodyear


edit
sorry for the lack of format, it looked good when I 'pasted' it.

[Marshall Mauney]

As of today, it appears that FF has 37 drivers entered and F500 has 30. These are #2 and #3 in open-wheel car counts (with FV as #1 with 48 entries).

Am I correct in my assumption that 67 cars is over the 25cars/mile limit at HPT per the GCR?

So....the schedule as proposed would either restrict the number of cars during qualifying, or it would be illegal per the GCR......

This is a POOR choice of classes to pair together at the Runoffs.

[Dave Gomberg]

As of today, it appears that FF has 37 drivers entered and F500 has 30. These are #2 and #3 in open-wheel car counts (with FV as #1 with 48 entries).

Am I correct in my assumption that 67 cars is over the 25cars/mile limit at HPT per the GCR?

So....the schedule as proposed would either restrict the number of cars during qualifying, or it would be illegal per the GCR......

This is a POOR choice of classes to pair together at the Runoffs.

Your assumption is not entirely correct. Each division's Executive Steward may override the GCR 25/mile limit (in either direction) if he/she believes it is appropriate. For example, at Summit Point, we can routinely ask for up to five additional cars (beyond the 50 per the GCR) - but we do have to ask and receive the permission. Since the Runoffs is officially the Interdivsional Championship, I would expect that the chairman of the executive stewards (currently Costa Dunias) would be the one to grant the exception if he thought it appropriate.

It is also not clear yet what the final numbers will be for any of the classes. At the deadline for non-late entries, the total was 811. As of a few minutes ago, the total is 810 (someone in T1 withdrew). Also, some of those registered have not qualified for an invitation (I know of at least a few of these). There will be other withdrawals (for personal reasons) before the event starts. For what it is worth, I'm going to update the numbers I posted above.

Dave

P.S. It is also possible (although I have no inside information) that the schedule could be modified (again) to change some of the combined groups. But, it won't be easy to find other workable combinations.

[Marshall Mauney]

Your assumption is not entirely correct. Each division's Executive Steward may override the GCR 25/mile limit (in either direction) if he/she believes it is appropriate. For example, at Summit Point, we can routinely ask for up to five additional cars (beyond the 50 per the GCR) - but we do have to ask and receive the permission.

OK, fair enough. But to create the second-largest grouping through a combination seems a bit harsh to me. Getting a clean lap in qualifying won't exactly be easy. Yes, I realize that SM has more cars in a single class, but hey, they did that to themselves, and there won't be a situation with them where someone from another class blocked them on their hot lap. (OT: Interesting that Alonso got penalized 5 grid spots this morning for unintentionally blocking Massa.....)

[Dave Gomberg]

Marshall:

It may be "harsh", but look at the current numbers and try to figure out better groupings given the time slots available, the kinds of cars that can be combined and the current numbers. I posted the new numbers (both unsorted and, now, sorted) above.

Dave

[Marshall Mauney]

It may be "harsh", but look at the current numbers and try to figure out better groupings given the time slots available, the kinds of cars that can be combined and the current numbers. I posted the new numbers (both unsorted and, now, sorted) above.

Your point is well taken, and yes, it's easy to criticize when you're not responsible for making things work. I realize this is a tough event to put on, and there's no way that everyone will be happy, even in the best of circumstances.

What about T1/T2? This would be 58 cars instead of the 67 FF/F500 is facing.....

[TimW]

What about T1/T2? This would be 58 cars instead of the 67 FF/F500 is facing.....

Or T1/AS for that matter