LimeRock Park, 8/18-19

[R.DeVoe]

This past weekend at LimeRock was awesome. The weather was great and so was the competition. I was just woundering what lap times the national guys run? My qualifying time was a 57.450 and my best race time before i was collected in an accident in the downhill was a 57.570. A lot of carnage this weekend, nore than i have ever seen at an scca race.

[Tom Valet]

Hi Ross,

Yes that was a crazy race, 34 starters and a big mix of different classes. I watched from up on the hill. Sorry to hear about your misfortune, you were going great before that. My son Bill started from the back because we missed Friday qualifying due to work obligations. He had fun coming up through the pack, it was nice to run with the CF guys and they had a huge field, 12 starters I think.

Anyway, to answer your question here's a link to last year's NARRC runoffs, FF ran in Group 9. Pole time was 55.1.

http://www.mylaps.com/results/showevent.jsp?id=105723

And here's a link to this years LRP National, I couldnt find qualifying times but here are the race results with best times for each driver.

http://www.scca-nnjr.org/PDF/2006-07...esultsOnly.pdf

I'd say your 57.5 is great considering this is your first year. Take care, see you soon.

Tom Valet

EDIT: I found the Nationals link from this year:

http://www.mylaps.com/results/showevent.jsp?id=153813

[stonebridge20]

And Club Ford was group 7(05 NARRC Runoffs) with Treadway on pole at a 54:334 Sorry for my previous mis-information of a 53:8 but he was still faster than F/F pole and faster than the national pole on Goodyear 600's and a car that is the same age as him !

On a side note,....57's at LRP from a first year driver is damn good !

Agnif

[Douglas Kniffin]

It was a wild race to say the least and your times are very respectible especially with that traffic. I'm sure that at that pace you didn't get a single clean lap.

[LolaT440]

54 seconds is really fast. What is the lap record at LRP?

[johnd]

Glen Taylor and Gary Rubio both got under 54 sec. I think that Glen was 53.9 and Gary got to 53.8. So I think that 53.8 is the current mark. (This was set sometime around 1984/5 if I am not mistaken. The track is a bit slower today than it was then, with the added bumps and concrete.)

Last year during qualifying at one of the LRP nationals, Art Foster did a series of bottom 54's with the best being something like 54.2. I had to tell Art that those were some of the fastest laps I had seen in a FF there in a long, long time.

Last season, with Jeremey's exception, the only other folks to get below 55 were Foster and Parsons. I don't believe that anyone got there this year.

'Unofficially' I think that Steve Maxwell may have been under 55 in a practice day before the first LRP national this year.


John D.

[Steve Maxwell]

John et ai,
I did a 54.4?? and a bunch of 54.6's at the may test day. That particular test day the track was the best it had been, grip wise, in a long time. On race weekends there seems to be too much of that junk DOT rubber from the skippy cars and/or all of the sedan classes.

SM

[EACIII]

Steve is right, the track is generally faster on test days then the race weekend. On the test day before the last regional I found a smooth, fast line around the concrete on the outside of Big Bend. On Friday it was not there at all, no grip outside. Had to run the inside line. Too bad Lime Rock didn't save some of the new pavement they put in the paddock for the track.

Ed

[R.DeVoe]

Just need some clarification on two topics: 1) Are Club Fords supposed to be faster or slower than Formula Fords? And if so, why. 2) What does NCF stand for? And same question as #1 but applied to NCF.

[Steve Maxwell]

Ross,
First off, sorry about that spin in the down hill. I spun but you and Don didn't have to follow me off track! S**t happens! Anyway, to answer your question FF's are generally faster than CF's which have exposed suspension and older designs, and, should always be, due to modern suspension design and better aero. Look at a DB-6 VS a Crossle. However, some CF's are HUGE cheaters like Mike Rand! Just Kidding!!!!!!! Some CF's are driven really really well, like Mike Rand and Jeremy Treadway, and can keep up with or be faster than an OK driven FF. NCF is a NARRC(north atlantic road racing championship) CF that must run on 600 compound GY's or R60 compound Hoosiers. So when we FF guys are slower than an NCF guy we know we're doing something really wrong. A 30 year old Crossle on hard tires should NEVER be faster than a modern era FF on GY 160's. When I went in the 54's on that test day at LRP I was in my Piper, not the VanDieman RF81 I raced at the LRP regional where we met.

I hope that helps.
SM

[stonebridge20]

When Steve talks about who and what should be faster, It made me think back to when Treadway ran the 54:3 at the NARRC Runoffs. I did the tire temps after that session and the highest temp I saw on the 600's was 99deg on the left front. It was one of those "Horsepower days" but then again he did have 35% leak in #3 cyl that weekend.

Agnif

[Douglas Kniffin]

A modern FF is always going to be substantially faster than a CF with similar drivers due to pure technology but, if it rains take the CF any day. Also, if Mike put the same kind of seat time into a DB6 or new Van Diemen he would be blistering fast compaired to what he is doing now. He just loves his old school toy.

[RoadHazard]

A modern FF is always going to be substantially faster than a CF... but if it rains take the CF any day.

Why is that? I've seen this before, where older CF's outperform newer FF's in the rain, but I thought it was a fluke. What's the reason for this strange performance inversion?

[Mike Allison]

I would guess that the aerodynamics of a modern FF vs a CF are part of it. The modern FF has substantially less drag than a CF but not as much Downforce. Hence it's faster down the straight but in the wet on the corners this works against the modern FF while the big ol' slug of a CF has better traction due to Downforce.

Mike Rand has spoken about being able to keep up with modern FF's in corners even in the dry but losing big time down the straight. So it's getting through and off the corners that evens out the odds.

Also, aren't CF's generally less stiff, chassis-wise than the more recent FF's.

Just my opinion. Need to run more FF's through the tunnel to be sure.

Mike

[Douglas Kniffin]

A club ford is a "softer" car with a lot more movement which makes it able to transfer weight slower and more effectively for racing in the rain and super low traction conditions. When it is dry and you want to be able to snap the wheel and have everything happen at once you need a stiffer and faster car like a modern FF but that works against you in the rain.

[Roux]

CF vs FF in the rain. I suspect that the downforce theory is weak. The speeds are low as it is, and then drop that a bunch in the rain and you would need a radical body setup to make any real downforce.

The soft CF chassis just forces the older cars to a softer spring rate and then when it rains they are at an advantage. I suspect the fast FF guys with great aero and stiff frames could use suitably soft springs/dampers and be real quick in the rain as well. At regionals you rarely if ever see guys throwing another set of springs and shocks at the car for rain, so way too often the CF's are up front. Probably because they are inherently nearer the right setup to start with. If we had serious rain at the Runoffs the year Jeremey Treadway had the CF Van Diemen there we may have gotten the answer.

If the runoffs were at a track where it rains often I suspect we would see many of the top teams test more in the rain and build a setup that kills in the wet. Then the CF's would have no real advantage

[LolaT440]

Back to 54 seconds. I better put flashing yellow revolving strobe lights on the back of my Lola when I race there. I am hoping for the 1.02 to 1.04. I thought that might be OK, I guess I was wrong.

[EACIII]

I have a set of springs to use in the rain for the Bowman and the car is very good in the rain with them on. Problem is at most of our Northeast events, like Lime Rock we are usually going back and forth on what tire to put on, wet or dry, right until we go to the grid. It only takes about 20 minutes to do the spring change but we never are that sure of the weather 20 minutes prior. And can someone get Hoosier to make the rains the same diameter as the drys!!!!

Ed