New shock valving

[ajs]

I know it may be a little early, but has anyone tested the new shock valving. What did you think and did you have to make any other changes to the car, rake for example?

Tony

[Bruce Allen FSCCA #82]

I just got my revalved shocks.
3 of the four push themselves to full extension and one does not. Should I assume it has no gas pressure and is leaking?
What pressures should be set and what is the affect?
I guess I'll need to get a high pressure gage and nitrogen bottle.

[BHerscher]

I don't seem to have the info of where to send the shocks. Would someone please post it.
Thank you.

[John Robinson II]

Joe Stimola.

[AustinJim]

The schocks should come back should all come back with the original valving....

[Bruce Allen FSCCA #82]

No, there is new valving for this year. Also, Schrader valves have been added to adjust the nitrogen pressure.

[Ray Dona]

Naaaah, I'm not going to tell him!
YOU tell em.

[fredvs]

We received our shocks back from Joe yesterday. We were told that no one got new valving as he is waiting for parts due to the variety of internal parts to the Bilstein shocks. The only thing that Joe said he had done or was doing was the addition of the Shrader valves at this time. Shocks are to be returned to him next month for the revalving as he should have parts by then.

Fred

[Bruce Allen FSCCA #82]

Jeez- he didn't tell me that when I spoke to him last week! I gotta check my credit card to see how much he charged.
In any case, what pressure? and if on e shock doesn't push out, it must have no pressure, right?

[SStadel]

Bruce, Not sure on Bilsteins, but I think we ran our Fox's and Penske's around 200-250 psi. Charge the shock up in that range and see what it feels like compared to the others. Hopefully just one more season before we get to go Penske.

[joe horvath]

[size=2]I believe the Bilstein nitrogen pressure should be 125 psi.[/size]

[chuckj]

Suggest you wait before you send in your Bilteins.....the jury is still out on how all this is going to work out.

[Augie Pabst]

confirmed by stimola 125psi

[Erik Skirmants]

I have a call with SRP on the 11th then a conference call with the CSR's on the 12th.

For critical communications like these I have been transitioning to the e-mail list we are trying to get right.

[chuckj]

For those that have sent their shocks in and have received them with the schrader valve installed; be sure to check the air pressure. I installed my set and went out and bought a gauge to check them, three were within a pound or two of 125, the third was zero. Filled it to 130 and could hear some air seeping, sprayed soapy water on the schrader valve and it was leaking at the thread. Tried to tighten it and became concerned that it was going to strip out and it was still leaking. Removed it, took off the old teflon tape, put on new and tried again. Initially it was leaking, tightened some more and think it is stopped now and will check it in 24 hours.

I picked up a shock inflation gauge/filler at a local sand rail dealer that sells Fox shocks for 50 bucks. Best price I have seen for one.

I would recommend that you not send in your shocks for revalving until you hear from Enterprises.

Chuck

[Bruce Allen FSCCA #82]

Two of my shocks were right on 125, one at 50, one at zero.

I removed the Schrader valves, used plumber's tape and the shocks held pressure through last weekend on the track. Yay.

PS: We are not allowed to rebuild our own shocks.

[Dave Harmison]

I'm not an FSCCA racer, but it MAY be my next car. Please explain:

How does getting new whizzy shocks (Bilstein upgrades now and Penskes later) fit into the cost containment philosophy of FSCCA? And if you're going to take-apart shocks, are they sealed in some way to keep us shock guys from shuffling guts? I currently custom valve my own Bilsteins for my Club Ford.

[SStadel]

Dave,

They do have a seal from my understanding. Or at least there is a way that they can tell if they've been pulled apart.

Once the Penske's are on, I anticipate no further changes to the suspension.

Steve

[joe horvath]

Dave,

To put it simply, Whizzy new shocks do not fit into the cost containment philosophy of the class. Moreover, they will do nothing to further equalize the performance of the cars, which should be the main objective of any changes.

Joe

[Lee Shumosic]

Whizzy new shocks would be 5 way adjustables. I think there are two issues with the Bilstein's 1) As was pointed out not all of the shocks currently have the same internals that's why they been returned. A spec class should have spec parts 2) Adding the pressure adjustment allows a level of performance tuning.

Moving to the Penske while I tend to agree does little to containe cost, it provides a higher quality product w/ mechanical adjustment vs. gas for a more user friendly experiance.

Lee

[rickjohnson356]

So much for being a spec class....

this year it is (Bilstein) shock (that might hold pressure during a race or not...) of the week. what part will they change next year?

Very poor quality control if 'rebuilt' shocks don't hold pressure and the owners aren't allowed to fix them.

Oh,,,, Penskes.. cost containment??? add $4000 per car for Penskes? How much are these going to cost. Instantly obsoleting those that don't go to the new shocks? or can you run the old ones until you can afford the new ones? Or, park your car (good for participation numbers) if you don't have the money. This is a cool way to get more money for ENTERPRISES-- will any of it be used to pay back the regular members dues that keep ENT alive? My guess is no.

Very cool idea, anytime Ent needs more money, just change a part and you instantly have 100 or so customers throwing money at you because you cannot run your car unless you have the latest 'spec' part! No driver/owner input required-- just change the part requirements.

At least with other classes, the CRB asks for driver input!

I was warming up to this spec class, but this type of jerking-the-owners-around reinforces my opinion that the control is in the wrong hands.

[Dan Aleckson]

Maybe you should get your facts right there was driver input i through our csrs. this our third year with this car. the only thing I have done in the last yr. was put a new set of geas in it. MY understanding is the set of shocks will be around $1700 for the set of four. the maintanance is very lowon this car. I love it. maybeyou should by one and find out for yourself. Dan car #30.

[rickjohnson356]

Thanks for the polite response, I expected severe flaming.

I am happy that you enjoy your car as much as I enjoy mine. That's what makes the world go around...

The penskes that I have been seeing advertised are in the $1k per shock range. If they have some 5-way adjustables for $350 each that will be better. we will have to wait and see.

We will be at Savannah next week. I will certainly watch the times of the different cars and then report back. Still not convinced that FSCCA is best bang for the buck.


PS: I am one of the tinkerers hanging around here. I get a lot of enjoyment working on these cars to try to improve them. Sometimes we go backwards when we try something new, but that way we do better the next time. Plus, WE decide what to upgrade (and when) for the next race.

[Robert Mumm]

Other than brake pads and tires, thats all we have replaced in 3 years of running. I sure don't know where he got the $4,000 for Penskes from as they have said all along they would be about $1,700. Rick also doesn't understand that many of us owners have asked for new shocks not necessarily that Enterprise is forcing them on us.

[Douglas Brenner]

There are some really nice (7540) non-adjustable Penskes that would be a really good replacement for the Bilsteins. They are aluminum bodied, no remote reservoir, can come without a schrader valve, and totally rebuildable. They use standard Penske parts so the rebuild would be very inexpensive......They sell retail for $370 each.

www.brennerfabrication.com

[chuckj]

There was a lot of user input into this decision. Unfortunately the internals of the Bilsteins was beyond Enterprises control (yes, even though it is a spec car, Enterprises did not build it and some things are beyond the distributor's control even when buying $100 million jets much less a race car) and the internal issues were not known until Stimola got into a number of shocks. This is a positive change that will result in better cost control in the future. The cost for a set as stated previously will be about $1,700 and as I understand it will be single adjustable and rebuildable for many times. Rather than ping at Enterprises for trying to make things better I would suggest people look at the history of other "spec" cars during the development process. Once you make the buy in it is cheap to keep. Outside of one screw up on my part, the only money I put into my car last season was tires and fuel, the tires were under $600 for the set and I'm running pump gas. I understand that the fast FSCCA in the runoffs had a three season engine in it. Try that in another class with this kind of performance.

[Lee Shumosic]

Hmmmm.....

1. 170+ HP
2. VD Chassis, push rod, anti intrusion suspention
3. Tires = $530 set / 8 heat cycles
4. Engine- all aluminum 4 valve, fuel injected = energizer bunny (Keeps going and going and going...) Rebuild / refresh - What that?
5. On site parts supply = no need to carry spares
6. Sequental gear box
7. Pi dash
8. 4 pot AP calipers on vented rotors
9. Was I out raced or out spent - what does that mean- new tires?
10......

I am happy that you enjoy your car as much as I enjoy mine. That's what makes the world go around...

Exactly!

Lee

[joe horvath]

Five way adjustable, two way adjustable, whizzy, variable internals, blah, blah, blah. There are a lot of ways to make the car faster; lets all bolt on a Cosworth head. I still have not heard one solid reason why, in a spec class, the shocks need to be replaced. Someone please enlighten me.

Joe

[R Webb]

Is the penske for sure and if so have we heard when?

[SStadel]

It will be the Penske's in 2007.


Joe, The reason for the change is that the valving, bump and rebound were hardly optimum for this car. I'm not blaming anyone, its just the way the Bilsteins came. After much testing a good baseline ratio for bump and rebound were found that makes the car handle better. It was decided to offer the rebuild to change the ratios, still to a spec setting. If you didn't want to do the rebuild/revalve you didn't have to. Your shock would still be legal. Because of the ridiculous price Enterprise has to pay for the junk Bilsteins they looked elsewhere and were able to make the Penske deal. There are all sorts of contract issues which we are not privy to, but Erik was able to make this work (for 2007). In the meantime, when rebuilds were attempted problems arose with the Bilsteins. Now they will not be rebuilt, but rather remain with the same bump and rebound settings they came with. If you don't want to buy the Penske's you don't have to. Both shocks will be listed as legal.

SRF has a smilar arrangement with both the original Koni's and Penske's being legal. I understand some top cars at the runoffs had Koni's.

The updates that this car has had in the last three years were all for the betterment of the class and car. And I think they were all reasonably priced. Like Chuck, I put fuel (pump gas), oil and tires in/on my car last year. Oh, I forgot about that set of brake pads that I had to put on, AFTER SEVENTEEN WEEKENDS!!!

[joe horvath]

Steve,

Thank you for the reply. I would like to point out that , yes , SRF does have a similar arrangement , but , the two shocks are very similar in performance, with identical bump (although one can be adjusted slightly softer in rebound) . I really don't think my "junk Bilsteins" will be anywhere near similar in performance to the new Penske shock. So much for,
" If you don't want to buy the Penske's you don't have to."



Joe

[BHerscher]

I understand it will be Penske"s in 2007 . Would someone please explain in plain english what is the absolute deal with the Bilsteins as provided on the cars as we received them. Do we need to have them revalved to continue to compete on a competitive basis for the remainder of 2006?
Do we need to have them revalved at all? A little help please!

[Eric E.]

Do we need to have them revalved at all? A little help please!

I don't think you can now...

I was going to send mine out last month, but said F it. I am not going to spend money on a set of shocks that will be replaced with penskes next year. Just didn't make sense to me.

I would really like to see penskes for this year.

[chuckj]

You should have all recieved Erik's email today. As I understand, none of the Bilteins have been revalved (at least that was what was said during the CSR meeting Wednesday), if you have sent yours in and it was revalved, let Erik know ASAP. Some have had Schrader valves installed, that was because they were taken apart by Stimola as part of the process of determining the internal make up. In order to repressurize them Joe had to put the Schrader valves in them.


To answer the question a couple items up, you do not have to have revalved Bilteins to be competitive this year. I am going to wait for the Penske's in 2007.

[Pinecone]

So much for being a spec class....

this year it is (Bilstein) shock (that might hold pressure during a race or not...) of the week. what part will they change next year?

Very poor quality control if 'rebuilt' shocks don't hold pressure and the owners aren't allowed to fix them.

Oh,,,, Penskes.. cost containment??? add $4000 per car for Penskes? How much are these going to cost. Instantly obsoleting those that don't go to the new shocks? or can you run the old ones until you can afford the new ones? Or, park your car (good for participation numbers) if you don't have the money. This is a cool way to get more money for ENTERPRISES-- will any of it be used to pay back the regular members dues that keep ENT alive? My guess is no.

Very cool idea, anytime Ent needs more money, just change a part and you instantly have 100 or so customers throwing money at you because you cannot run your car unless you have the latest 'spec' part! No driver/owner input required-- just change the part requirements.

At least with other classes, the CRB asks for driver input!

I was warming up to this spec class, but this type of jerking-the-owners-around reinforces my opinion that the control is in the wrong hands.

BTW Enterprises is currently paying SCCA back on the loans made to it, and no membership money is going INTO Enterprises.

And many changes Eric has done has REDUCED prices and costs of operation.

Just to get the facts straight.