Sideways Head Restraint

[Steve Davis]

In my 'first look' opinion, your front hoop is going to block a significant portion of what you would LIKE to be seeing during a racing event.
I'd move it about 50% closer to the rear hoop I think.

Steve, FV80

[FVRacer21]

Opinions on this roll cage, assuming the addition of side head supports ? It's about the best I can do without going to a sprint car style.

That is the idea I have envisioned - I don't think it will block too much - it is amazing what the eyes will adjust to (as long as you have two) I will bet it will almost disappear after a while. Problem might be in getting out. In this case making it hinged somehow, this would also hit the second issue - getting in and out of the car might be tough.

I think putting a fiberglass "cap" on it would make it acceptable to those who don't like the looks.

ChrisZ

[racerdad2]

I think Steve is right. Set-up looks good for top fuel dragster, but your vision to sides & apex may be hindered. I'd sit in the car as close to race position before welding. Awesome protection !!!

[stephen wilson]

Thanks for the input. I don't think vision will be an issue. It's close enough to the head that "stereo" vision actually let's you look around it, making it more of a shadow than the blockage of an A pillar. There's no getting around the fact that it makes egress harder. I don't have to twist my shoulders any more than with the OEM braces, but it does force you into a "jack-knife" position. I have to get some upper cockpit rails tacked in place to fully test it. They are required leverage points for exiting.

[Steve Davis]

I think you would be well advised to drive it around in a parking lot or similar before you make final full welds. I personally think you are wrong about the view. As close as you are to those posts, they are going to be REALLY BIG compared to the field of view - especially if you pad them. If you are coming into T5 at Road America at 125 MPH, you probably won't be able to see the apex after you hit the brakes! until after you turn in.

It'll be pretty tough to cut all that out again after your first race weekend.
Get something that makes you feel safe, but it's pretty easy to make yourself "more prone to needing that protection" if you can't really SEE what you need to.

I had to quit using my early model HANS device back in the early 90's because I could not see my mirrors or dash or anything much to either side. After a couple of events, I decided the risk was too high - MUCH higher than NOT using it.

Steve, FV80

[stephen wilson]

You're right, it's hard to judge just sitting in the garage. Thanks for reminding me to check mirror sight lines!

[FVRacer21]

I think you would be well advised to drive it around in a parking lot or similar before you make final full welds. I personally think you are wrong about the view. As close as you are to those posts, they are going to be REALLY BIG compared to the field of view - especially if you pad them. If you are coming into T5 at Road America at 125 MPH, you probably won't be able to see the apex after you hit the brakes! until after you turn in.

It'll be pretty tough to cut all that out again after your first race weekend.
Get something that makes you feel safe, but it's pretty easy to make yourself "more prone to needing that protection" if you can't really SEE what you need to.

I had to quit using my early model HANS device back in the early 90's because I could not see my mirrors or dash or anything much to either side. After a couple of events, I decided the risk was too high - MUCH higher than NOT using it.

Steve, FV80

Good point about padding although if you move them back you HAVE to pad them, if you move them forward would you??? Plus do you have to make them as thick as the roll bar to get increased protection? Or would thinner tubing work? Is anything better than nothing?

Would you need some triangulation? Are the welds alone going to be strong enough to support the front bar?

Also agree with Steve re sometimes what seems should be safer actually makes you less safe overall - you have to be able to control your car, physically and visually.

ChrisZ

[problemchild]

Race drivers are supposed to be looking 100 yds down the road, not at the front tires or apex. The better driver is looking further ahead than the lesser driver.

I would not be concerned about vision but that the completed roll cage is safer and more protective, and does not introduce more safety issues than it solves.

Along time ago, a friend was driving a Crossle with similiar structure in a mixed group, spun and got run over by a Datsun 240Z. He was unhurt, but traumitized to the point he became a slug, and soon after quit. The guy in the 240Z never raced again. It was a good lesson for not mixing OW and CW, but that 2nd hoop saved his life.

[stephen wilson]

Well, I can't move the hoop forward any more and still be able get in and out. As far as padding, I was going to use the "directional" type, facing directly towards my head, so it will minimally "widen" the tube to my vision.

I used main hoop sized tubing for mainly because I wasn't sure if it would be legal as forward bracing otherwise, in addition to the added strength.. All tube junctions will be gusseted, and there will be 1" tubing along the cockpit rim, with a diagonal.

[R. Pare]

Good point about padding although if you move them back you HAVE to pad them, if you move them forward would you???
ChrisZ

You definitely need to pad them! You would be surprised just how far and fast your head will move forward in a frontal crash, even with a HANS, and the impact will be severe.

[FVRacer21]

You definitely need to pad them! You would be surprised just how far and fast your head will move forward in a frontal crash, even with a HANS, and the impact will be severe.

If I remember it says you have to pad the part that your head could come in contact with. Norm Marx used to have a Crossle FF with a full roll cage (can be seen in the now infamous Bridgehampton Youtube video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQDSmvPbcKE 11:12). Unlike a closed car where you can pad a roll hoop to your hearts delight, if we have to now put padding on an entire cage it will discourage its adoption.

ChrisZ

[iamuwere]

I leaned a couple of tubes in about that position in the garage and can't imagine it blocking a race view. Looks good.

[dalz]

Quality discussion guys.

After the Dan Wheldon accident I thought that maybe there would be more revolution at least talked about in OW drivers' head protection. I thought maybe the days were numbered when a helmet is part of the car's silohuette. In many ways the short trackers are ahead of us--those full roll cages offer real protection. It wasn't popular at first. Cages on sprinters, midgets, champ dirt cars, and supers were considered ugly, unmanly, and invitations for recklessness. But you know, USAC stopped killing a driver a week.

I envisioned something a lot like Stephen is working on. I really think that to make a measureable move foward in formula car safety this sort of thing should happen, along with canopies in the upper levels. Perhaps if a spec class implements this, so no performance penalty is involved, it might get the ball rolling.

This doesn't change my desire to race, and I will always accept the risk of strapping on a car every day that I do it. But I hope that improvement in this area never stalls.

[Roux]

Stephen,

is that your 'primary' racer or something else you have in the works? It clearly starts to address the real issue the rest of us are worried about, but not addressing. When it comes time to pad those bars you should cut the FIA/SFI padding so that the padding is narrow enough to appear the same width as the bars to your eyes and still be interposed between any allowed helmet trajectory and the bars. You could even make the padding taper from full width at the bars to something a bit smaller at the point where the helmet will contact. Spray Glue and tape or tie wraps and you are good to go

Cheers

Steve

[stephen wilson]

Chris, you may not have to pad every square inch, if you look at the ISP Top Fuel solution: http://ispseats.com/id125.html The only addition beyond the "standard" horse-collar type surround would be a top pad directly overhead. Though I would make it lower profile.

I really looked at a sprint car cage, but ugliness aside, I was worried about the mounting base being narrower than the top of the cage, and the inability to sufficiently triangulate it. Those tall front bars have lots of leverage on the chassis mounting points.

Long time no see Steve! The "stick-on" padding you describe is exactly what I was thinking of. It won't present it's full width to the wind, being at a 45? angle or more.

I still have my RF78, this is a beat-up RF80 frame I bought and repaired. It will be my primary if I ever get it finished!

On a related note, I was also looking at FIA-8860 spec helmets, but $3500 is out of my price range. Though Sparco seems to have one for $1200 I'll look into.

[quartzracer]

I would like to see how these helmet collars are installed. They must be easy removed I would guess.

Eric

[Purple Frog]

Working with "experts" such as Eric Langbien and Fred Clark, I modified my Reynard rollhoop with forward facing bars that can also act as side head restraints (with the FIA padding installed). They are slightly behind the eyeport on my Bell helmet, so no restriction in sight lines.

Also you can see the matrix of side impact bars i added below the top side rail.

[TimH]

That looks pretty sensible.

[quartzracer]

Ralt RT40 modified cockpit opening

[Brian331]

I'm just seeing this thread for the first time, and spoke with purple frog by email, but you guys should really consider doing this!


I did go back to Lime Rock a few months ago to personally thank all the first track workers. My head DID contact the huge tire wall designed to withstand a heavy Busch grand north car. My car only weighing 1100 lbs with me in it, didn't fair so well. The grid worker who was there first, told me that she had somebody spray down the wall to remove the paint left by my helmet when it made contact with the wall, because it was a constant reminder of my crash to all the workers. I was driving a Swift DB3, which the frog is 100% right saying Those cars need some attention. I made contact with the wall around 90 mph, and the damage done wasn't very bad to the car at all (Sadly it was a lot worse for me). I've seen cars wrecked 10 times worse, and seen the driver walk away. My head hit the tire wall to not only chiped the custom paint job, but crack my helmet. It wasn't cracked nearly as bad as John's helmet, but my injury was a lot worse. I'm still in my recovery mode, as I'm still unable to drive a street car, or return to work because of my double vision problems. I will need eye surgery in the next few month to repair it. The eye surgeon told me that neither of my eyes are straight right now, because I hit my head hard enough to make my "eyes spin in my head". He said that they didn't completely spin around, but there both off by a few millimeters.

Anyway, I've had to relearn just about everything that most people wouldn't think twice about doing. I had to relearn how to walk (still can't run or jog) right down to taking a leak. It's a strange feeling knowing you have to pee and standing in front of the toilet, and nothing happens. I just would stand there and stare at my dick saying come on and work already (it's works fine again LOL) My life was totally flipped upside down from my injuries that I'm about 85% recovered from. I had a great job, living my dream of racing, lived on my own, and could drive a damn street car, all those things are gone at the moment.

After losing just about everything, I'm thankful to even be alive. The lady that was at my wreck first said I wasn't even breathing when they pulled me out of the car, so they thought I wasn't gonna make it in the long run. The doctors even pulled both of my parents aside in a room, and told them that I may never wake up let alone live, so they shouldn't get their hopes up. I went back to the hospital in NY to thank all of them, and the doctors all came out to shake my hand, one doctor said that my recovery "is beyond words". When I went to the eye surgeon first, a lady nurse (I think) came to do the first tests, and walked into the room looking at me and shaking her head. I asked her what, and she said that she couldn't believe I was even there after she reviewed my MRI and saw the amount of brain damage I had. She told me that she's seen half as much brain damage on others and they can't even walk or talk, so the fact that I was having vision problems wasn't a big deal in a way. I truly think that my uncle (who I was racing that race for that recently died of brain cancer, and I had a sticker made up RIP uncle Danny and put it on my car) and my grandfather who died about a year before, told me I wasn't welcome and pushed me out of heaven.

Having said all of that, I still have a huge desire to race. My parents were against it at first, but I've worn them down. If I can find another good paying job, then I'll start saving for another car again and more gear. I told my parents given my massive brain injury (The doctor said those exact words) that I still want to race, and that I'm a slow learner haha. IMO, if I do die racing, if I can afford to return, then I'll die with no regrets and that I'll die doing what I love!

I hate that this injury happened, but I hope I'm a reason for all of you to become safer so you don't have to go through all of this. I will personally find the purple frog to shake his hand and thank him for bringing this topic to everyone's attention.

Sorry for writing this much and taking up your time to reed this, this is the short version.

Brian

[Steve Davis]

Brian,
Thanks for the update on your accident and recovery. I followed the thread about you following the accident and it was a great relief when you were finally able to post on it yourself. It is GREAT to hear that you are making progress with a good attitude and goals. I worry about things like that happening to me too.. especially as I was spinning towards the concrete wall (NO TIRES) at Atlanta a few weeks ago (also at about 90 MPH). It is a staunch reminder that things DO happen and we all need to do our best to control what we can going forward. Fortunately, in my case, it was the CAR that took most of the damage.

We all wish you the best in the future and I certainly hope that you regain the ABILITY to race again regardless of whether it actually happens or not.

Steve, FV80

[racerdad2]

Brian ! Glad to hear you're on the mend. As for the brain damage, many would suggest that's a pre-existing condition Racers understand the desire to race, no matter the risk. Non-racers simply can not... Keep smiling, don't listen to the nay-sayers. Keep astounding them with your progress ! In the meantime, some sim racing will help satisfy that need-for-speed & help your 'motor' skills

[fitfan]

my noggin' added to the batch.... incl. new fangled dual density padding - i highly recommend if your rattling around anywhere near the bars..

[Brian331]

Guys, everybody that did, thanks for pulling for me.


Once I 'm able to drive a street car again and start working, I won't just buy another race car. I plan on doing some of the Skip Barber Racing School again before buying another car and more safety gear, to see if I still have the same reactions. If everything goes well, I fully plan on returning to racing if I've got the money.

I should point out that Lime Rock DID make some changes to where I crashed. I only say this because I read in my injury thread, that the track should install a safer barrier. They installed another tire wall in front of where I hit, and they put it a few feet in front of the wall I hit. They put it in front to give the wall room to move and take the impact, instead of the tires being right against the concrete like where I hit.


Brian

[racerdad2]

Hey Brian ! I know, first hand, how important your Faith, Desire & Attitude is to your recovery. Having survived many "you'll never _________ again" & "No, there is nothing you can do" diagnoses from many doctors over the years I can say, " Keep your eyes on the goal & you'll get there ! "

[quartzracer]

Radical Racing offers this head retraint, very universal looks like it would be great for a sportracer.

Eric

[Jnovak]

Good info

[quartzracer]

If your Jay Novak you make your own!

[swiftdrivr]

http://baldspotsports.com/products/headrest.html Perfect for the newer VD's and I am sure they can make something for most any car. No they arent cheap but.......


Any ideas about how to attach one of these to a DB-1 and have it do some good?

[SpacemanSpiff]

I'll apologize in advance for bumping an old thread, but it seemed relevant, especially as a lot of this discussion is to how to assemble something to existing cars. I found this photo of Lotus's F1 car with head surround up on the UK Daily Mail's site. Designing something like this with a hinged tube, padded surround, and some 3M dual lock Velcro shouldn't be rocket science, would add to safety and ne easy to get out from.

From The Daily Mail

[stephen wilson]

I've also been looking for details from F1 footage. Some teams use a 1/4-turn fastener at the front, others seem to have some sort of snap-in stud. They don't seem to use velcro, just 2 pins in the back, and some with additional guide pins in the side, in addition to the "latch".

[SpacemanSpiff]

Works for F1 where the corner workers can presumably work with each team before the race and know the systems. For a club race I don't want a corner worker having to figure out how to get me out of a burning car. To my mind something like a velcro attachment point and an obvious handle would be reassuring. The dual lock velcro is pretty tenacious stuff, you're not going to pop the panel free in a bumpy section, but could likely get out without problem.

Or maybe there's an FIA spec that would provide a good starting point.

[stephen wilson]

I was thinking about these with a small red strap:
https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/pr...asp?RecID=4660

[Numbskull XIV]

Maybe a 3-4" sticker saying "pull here" or "push here" with an arrow point to the attachment point would help safety crews know how to get you out. FA's use a cotter pin. I think a cotter pin or a 1/4 turn would be the easiest fasteners.

[Steve Demeter]

I was thinking about these with a small red strap:
https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/pr...asp?RecID=4660

If there is any load on them they are near impossible to unlatch. My car uses them in several places to hold bodywork. Just the ordinary misalignment tension from that will cause the need to have to use a big dowel rod (wood) to get enough force to pop them loose.
Not the item to use if you want it to be quick release.

[SpacemanSpiff]

Just curious, on the FAs, do you need a second person to get out or are the cotter pins accessible from inside the cockpit?

[Numbskull XIV]

The cotter pins had a wire strap on it going to the stationary pin. So the slack in the strap allows the driver to pull the pin and exit the car quickly and prevent the cotter pin from being lost. I hope this makes sense. I'm not at a computer to post a picture sorry

[DonArm]

Actually working with Bald Spot and Jeff Horton one of the engineers for safety stuff with IndyCar for a piece for Citations.
Made out of the same multiple hit foam they use in IndyCar seats.
It's probably going to be about the same price as the fiberglass ones we use now.
So not all that much. Beside whats cheaper $300-500 dollars or a hospital bill for a concussion or cervical spine fracture that you won't walk away from.
Same for your head when spending money on a good helmet.
Very good discussion.

[ghickman]

Here's one of our head surrounds for the 2014 Phoenix F1000. We used FIA / SFI approved foam. Built in the same manor as an F1 surround. Easy to remove and doesn't weigh much. Covered with Kevlar and a special resin specific to this use.

[stephen wilson]

If there is any load on them they are near impossible to unlatch. My car uses them in several places to hold bodywork. Just the ordinary misalignment tension from that will cause the need to have to use a big dowel rod (wood) to get enough force to pop them loose.
Not the item to use if you want it to be quick release.

Thanks for the heads up, I wasn't aware of that issue.

Gary,
Could you show details of your mounting, alignment pins and retaining hardware?