I've been an active Vee racer for several years and I'm considering moving to FF. Any information as to the cost differentials between Vee and FF as well as class stability (i.e. do I need new stuff every year to be competitive) and recommendations as to which car to get would be most appreciated.
How hard are FF's to set up?
Thanks
Veek
Veek,
Welcome to the site! There is a ton of information to be found here.
I've found FF to be very resonable. The class is pretty stable from what I can tell, though this is just my second season as a driver. In the nearly three years I've been looking at the class, the only new things to come out have been replacement engine parts (an alloy head is now legal, as are an aftermarket crank, electronic ign and perhaps a few other things that slip my mind).
The best indication about the stability of FF isa that Swift DB-1's finished 4th and 5th at the RunOffs last year. These are nearly 20 year old chassis! I bought a Swift so that as I improve, I could one day be competitive in Nationals. A good one can be had for probably 15K with spares. A cheaper Club Ford or Spec Ford (sepending on your region) will be a little cheaper but won't run with the big dogs.
Best bet is to find someone moving up a class and selling their Swift.
Brad
Thanks Garey, your information is really helpful.
How long can you go between engine rebuilds and what's the typical cost for a redo. (It's about $1,200 for a Vee)
Thanks again
Don't rule out vintage FF. Bigger FF grids (by far), fewer "incidents" due to the racing ethic, good competition throughout the grid, and all you can handle up front. Rules stability (damn near etched in stone!), and (with apologies to many SCCA types) more damn fun and camaraderie. Lots of clubs to choose from and race with. No runoffs, but . . . if that's your bag, go for it (and bring money!).
The average engine life for an FF should be about 15-20 hours. Some take it to 30 hours. These hours are only race time hours, not idle and warm up hours. Andresen Engine Development in Woodstock, IL is doing my engine. A typical engine rebuilding including all the magnafluxing, dyno, and tuning is just over $3K, pending everything is normal and healthy.
FF is a tremendous car. With almost four classes, Vintage, Club Formula Ford, Formula Ford, and the burgeoning Spec Ford, there is an opportunity for any FF from any year to be competetive. And, no one category of FF is better or worse than the other.
Some cars are more easily set up and maintained, parts-wise, than others. Late model FF's have a steady parts supply. Cars that are more obscure and older than, say, 1990 are a little more expensive and difficult to get parts for, but, there are people like Pat Prince who will fabricate anything. The Crossle (Club FF) has a great parts supply from Neil Porter, and is an example of a Club FF that is as easy to get parts for as a new FF. On the performance example end, the Titan (Vintage) will turn better lap times at Road America (1.33's) than the Club FF's. Just some info. from what I've observed and been told.
An FF might be less tempermental than a Vee. An FF engine is as simple and steady-going as a Chevy small-block. I guess you Vee guys are really busy keeping your engines hot or cold, or cooling them off? Not much of a problem for the FF engine. From what I understand the Vee needs an entire tranny change if you wish to change gearing. You have the short track and long track tranny's. The FF's gearboxes are so simple and straight forward, even a dumb guy like me can teach himself to change gearing in those things.
Well, just to cut this one shorter... make the jump!
Veek,
As a Florida racer as well I can add a little insight to your questions. Engine reliability is pretty good, you should get atleast one if not more seasons from your engine (depends on how much you race :D ). Rebuilds arent that bad, 2 - 3K depending on needs. Stability is pretty damn good. You dont need the chassis of the moment. Majority of speed is going to come from engineering and driver ability.
Now the down side... there are lots of FF and CF in the SE. But for some reason we cant seem to get them to show up at the track at the same time. Atlanta has a large concentration of both. We have been trying to get more racers out of the garage and onto the track with limited results. It seems that they want to come and play in larger fields but no one wants to be the one to show up. maybe it is just an excuse but either way the field seems to be getting larger, just slowly.
the range of cars seems to be pretty good. you should always have some one to run with wether you aare real serious or just want to go fast in a great handling type car.
FWIW, I spoke to several "old timers" who have said that Vees are a great training ground for FF drivers. Seems that the lack of power makes you have to drive a damn near perfect race in order to do well.
Good Luck and we look forward to seeing you at a track real soon. If you are coming to Sebring next weekend look me up, I will be glad to discuss this in person. I am in a red Royale Rp31 CF # 19.
John
Thanks John,
I'll be there at Sebring with my Vee. I'll stop by.
Thanks
Veek
Veek,
I use Jay Ivey for my engines (503-255-1123). The cost of a rebuild is greatly dependant on what it needs. It'll be more than the Vee though. There may be some local builders that can do competent work for you for less. Since I'm only a Double race weekend into my second season, I can't say how long an engine will last. A lot depends on your maintenance schedule. I have 7 races including a 1.5 hour Enduro on this engine and haven't had the head off. Since this is my first race driving experience, I know the time I have to gain is between my ears and not in any lost HP over that time.
Maybe I'm lucky to be in Southern California but my fellow competitors have been very forthcoming with help including parts, suppliers, gear info, racing lines, misc suggestions, etc. We have several DB-1's in Cal Club so I have a great gauge for my performance. I'm also in nearly constant contact with the guy I bought the car from and he's been amazingly helpful.
Brad
Quick - Buy a DB-1 They are so cheap right now I can't believe it. A fabulous car. You will park your vee and never look back.
Veek.....some of the better V's give the slower fords fits...but then you probably know that...the game is the same if V or ford...without tons of power then momentum is the game...i agree with John, bet you can drive a great line. see you at Sebring, black Crossle 32F - look for One Eye Racing - cold Coors for you, uh - you too John.
Veek-Come on and buy a car.The time is right as prices are the lowest I ever seen.Competitive cars can be had for 12-15k with spares packages.I think FF is the best bang for the buck.The cost of a FF right now is not much more than a FV.Motor rebuild costs are 2-3k usually and a properly built engine will run 15-20 hours.Gear changes are quick(about 15 minutes).So what are you waiting for?Hope you get one soon.
Veek -
After 8 years of Vintage and Regional FVee, we bought a Vintage Caldwell D9. The driving transition was very easy. Brakes a ton better, shifts nicer and of course can actually accelerate. Everything you learned in Vee's will be true in the FF. Great training. Nice to be able to change gears at the race.
Down side, a lot more work to set up and maintain. The engine interval is a bit less and a bit more expensive.You'll be competing against some semi-pro teams.
All in all, we're (wife and I) are having a ball with it and actually running near the front. I recommend the Vintage route.
Rich
TeamVortex Racing
Veek,
I did three years in FF (the first two in a Swift and the last in a '98 Van Diemen) and one year in an Adams FVee. FF is quite a bit more challenging, both to drive and to prepare. Getting a proper set-up is tough, you need double the prep time, and fords are more nervous than Vees on the track. In addition, repair costs are A LOT higher if you wreck.
That being said, Fords are fun to drive and will keep you very busy on the track. The wheel-to-wheel racing is probably better in Vee, but you will never be bored in a FF.
As for chassis, now is the time to buy, considering how poor the market is. Although Swifts are fairly cheap and competitive, I would probably not buy one, because it is hard to find a frame that is in good shape. My DB1 had several cracks in the front roll hoop (discovered after the car was sold), and we had to put a new floor pan on to make it competitive. In addition, Swifts tend to need more work, since bolts are constantly coming loose. They are fragile in an accident, and they are difficult to drive. I would seriously consider a '97 or '98 Van Diemen, or even and earlier monoshock Van Diemen. The VD is certainly not as popular in the US, but they are quite capable of winning races. It is fairly easy to find parts for them, and they are well mannered.
-Clark Cambern
George Main
SpeedSense consulting
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