Contrast SCCA to FRP at Road Atlanta

[Hartley]

Friends,

If we truly want to save open wheel racing and Formula Continental in particular there needs to be one simple change. We have tried split starts with limited success. For example at the Road Atlanta Super Tour last month we had only 2-3 green laps in one race and not many more green laps in the other race. The split start works in the beginning separating FC from FE2. However after the inevitable FCY the FE2s catch up to the back of the FCs and carnage breaks out during the restart. We have begged the SCCA stewards for a separate run group but they say there is no time. Fair enough. We also asked them to simply put the FCs in the same run group as the FFs, F600 and FVs. This run group has coexisted for decades with favorable outcomes. It was tried a few years ago at Homestead at a Major with great success. We have asked for this run grouping many times in the last few years with negative stone faced replies. There have been many accidents in the past few years because of this impossible pairing of FC and FE2. Is SCCA waiting until someone is killed? I have an idea, can we get a showing of support to change this run grouping? Just simply show your support with a ‘like’ to this post. Another idea, lets document all these requests to SCCA that have fallen on deaf ears and when someone is killed we all join in as witness’ in a lawsuit. We can name the president of SCCA, the chief steward, and any one else associated with the tragic event for their negligence. If we all show support now for this inevitable lawsuit idea maybe we can wake someone up.

I mentioned the word contrast in my opening. Here are some videos only 2 weeks later at the same track at an FRP event. I will spare you watching 20 plus laps following a pace car at the SCCA event. But here is some exciting racing with only one local yellow unfortunately caused by me in the second race. There were 10 cars and the first 5 qualified within .7 of a second and a little over a second between the top 8. I have never had more fun racing in fact in a word it was thrilling! Actual wheel to wheel racing going through turn 10 side by side and nary a scratch in the paint. Those of you with an FC car who could not make it my sympathies! Some might say it is more expensive to race at FRP. Yes that is correct. However when you divide the $$ by the number of green laps it is actually cheaper. Don’t believe that? Do the math yourself. My apologies for the length of the videos as I have not learned how to edit. Maybe the next pandemic I will have time!

Here are the video links:

Race1

https://youtu.be/CJae3KfJbQI?feature=shared

Race 2

https://youtu.be/8hSLcJr6R3g?feature=shared

[Rick Kirchner]

Can't say i have any direct experience with that approach but I think it has some merits.

Out here in Cali the state allows local county supervisors the opportunity to prioritize the road projects in their counties. Problem is, many of those counties (Riverside, Kern, San Bernardino) are as big as some eastern states and have urban population centers far from the more rural parts of the county. So guess where the money goes? That's right, to the areas around the biggest cities.

This leaves a lot of dangerous two-lane covering hundreds of miles, with a lot of fatalities. There are large tourist attractions where these two-lanes are the only access, leaving the locals to face an onslaught of LA, San Diego, Bakersfield, and Vegas drivers heading to the slopes, passing on double yellow, driving triple digit speeds, etc.

So the thought has been out there that next time a local family dies in one of those stretches, the survivors families should sue the county supes for wrongful death. It doesn't have to be successful, it just has to put the fear of god in them to do the right thing for once.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

This has been discussed many times regarding Majors/ST races and they just don't want to seem to budge.

We asked to move 10 FCs to the FV/FF group when there are 30 cars in the P1...FE2 group and the answer is NO.
A bunch of nonsense about people planning for certain times, conflicts, etc.

CalClub generally follows the Majors grouping for their regional races.
San Francisco has to follow Majors for Majors but their regional races group FC into FF, etc.
They do get complaints from FV racers.

I've never like split starts because it generally means me in my FC gets passed by the fast group 2x per race.
Let's face it, they are 1/2 through a lap before we (FCs) start.

[veeten]

Look at Last weekends CMP Driverz Cup Races. 22 Cars 5 sessions Green to Checker every session.
Both wet and dry sessions. A great Mix of veterans and Newer drivers. The other Open Wheel group a mix of every SCCA
OW classes didn't have the same type of results. Challenge Cup running with FRP usually has the same great weekends . Lots
of track time with few if any FCY or black flags

[Hartley]

Look at Last weekends CMP Driverz Cup Races. 22 Cars 5 sessions Green to Checker every session.
Both wet and dry sessions. A great Mix of veterans and Newer drivers. The other Open Wheel group a mix of every SCCA
OW classes didn't have the same type of results. Challenge Cup running with FRP usually has the same great weekends . Lots
of track time with few if any FCY or black flags

OK this is a club not a corporation, we all have equal ownership. So if the ‘management’ does not make obvious changes that are good for the club and most members support should we not fire them?! Can we not focus on getting rid of the lazy/ complacent beurocrats?

[JoshuaJustice]

FCs with FVs sounds like an absolutely terrible idea. Maybe there's some tracks where it works well but I'd hate to be a FV in that grouping. I've done FVs with FFs once before and while it's not pleasant getting lapped by the FFs, they're not all that much faster in the turns. I can't imagine Vees getting lapped by FCs is good for anyone.

[Hartley]

FCs with FVs sounds like an absolutely terrible idea. Maybe there's some tracks where it works well but I'd hate to be a FV in that grouping. I've done FVs with FFs once before and while it's not pleasant getting lapped by the FFs, they're not all that much faster in the turns. I can't imagine Vees getting lapped by FCs is good for anyone.

A well driven FF is just about as fast in most corners as an FC. Try running with real FAs passing with ground effects!

[brian styczynski]

FCs with FVs sounds like an absolutely terrible idea. Maybe there's some tracks where it works well but I'd hate to be a FV in that grouping. I've done FVs with FFs once before and while it's not pleasant getting lapped by the FFs, they're not all that much faster in the turns. I can't imagine Vees getting lapped by FCs is good for anyone.

I've seen what happens at test day in combined group, will never go on track in an FV like that if combined with FC. I don't know where he is alluding it happens frequently with great results, maybe regional races with small numbers of all FC, Ff, F6 and FV?

[BeerBudgetRacing]

So basically you're all saying FC is the real problem.
Too fast for 1 group. Too slow for another.

As I said SFR gets grief from the FVs - but I think there is 2. Cal Club gets 2 or 3 but the FCs are grouped with FE2/FA/P1.

Yeah, FC is the problem isn't it....

[brian styczynski]

If you are replying to me, I did not assign any blame to a car. The problem is the speed differential between a FC and a FV, especially ability to slow down after being over taken.

The OP was threatening liable claims and I was trying to get to the point that FC and FV is also a known danger, so doesn't solve the issue.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

If you are replying to me, I did not assign any blame to a car. The problem is the speed differential between a FC and a FV, especially ability to slow down after being over taken.

Educate me: If the FV drives it's race why do they have a problem slowing down? Do you mean the FC's are cutting in front of them and out braking them? Yeah, that's a douche move.

But my point is there are problems for the FC in either group. But, to the point of the 2 posts with the problems of FFs and FVs - it's the same problem.

So maybe there should be an FF/FC group.

[924RACR]

Vote with your feet!!!

Has no-one noticed that the Mid-O Super Tour this year in May has a separate run group for FC???

Probably not - turnout for all groups is relatively low yet... but there area already 4 FCs signed up.

Hope to see you there...

[Peter Olivola]

Educate me: If the FV drives it's race why do they have a problem slowing down? Do you mean the FC's are cutting in front of them and out braking them? Yeah, that's a douche move.

But my point is there are problems for the FC in either group. But, to the point of the 2 posts with the problems of FFs and FVs - it's the same problem.

So maybe there should be an FF/FC group.

Before Majors/Super Tours, the 2009 June Sprints was expanded from nine to 10 race groups specifically to achieve a FF/FC race group (FV/F5 was the third open wheel group.) The only objection we had was from the Coello's where the brothers would be in the same race group, which the family had decided years ago to avoid given their history in SM.

[brian styczynski]

Educate me: If the FV drives it's race why do they have a problem slowing down? Do you mean the FC's are cutting in front of them and out braking them? Yeah, that's a douche move.

But my point is there are problems for the FC in either group. But, to the point of the 2 posts with the problems of FFs and FVs - it's the same problem.

So maybe there should be an FF/FC group.

Yes, that's the issue I have seen on test days, the FV can brake way later than an FC, but the FC has so much more braking ability. So, if an FC overtakes an FV into a corner, the FV does not have the ability to slow down and avoid the FC. I get the temptation to get around the FV before the corner, but there isn't the same familiarity with FC/FV as there is F600 or FF FV. FC comes a lot faster, so it's hard to spot them in the mirrors until they are right on an FV too.

I understand (not as much as the drivers in big bore open wheel) the problems FC is dealing with in the grouping, I am just saying putting FC in a group with FV would create an even more dangerous situation. The problem is lumping 1/3 of SCCA classes into 2 run groups, and the inherent danger of open wheel racing mixed with widely different speeds.

[Bob Wright]

The FC vs FV argument needs some context. Go look at the results of the Homestead Majors race this year (and previous years) where the run group was FC, FF, F6, FV. With a little care on the part of the FCs, it works very well and has for many years.

Yes, there is a big speed differential, but no different than FA or P1 vs FC. In fact that speed differential makes it easier and probably safer to race together. The FC vs FE2 situation is that they are very similar in lap times but make the laps differently (same as the FC vs Star Mazda). Give the FE2 some decent 3 way shocks and a diffuser, they will be significantly faster than the current FC both on the straight and in the corners; a lot of the problem will go away.

[Steve Davis]

Educate me: If the FV drives it's race why do they have a problem slowing down? Do you mean the FC's are cutting in front of them and out braking them? Yeah, that's a douche move.
...

It's not a 'douche move'.. it an incredibly DANGEROUS move. FV has NO HP... our "acceleration" numbers don't even show up on a data system and WAY less braking power than FC.. or any other OW class for that matter if only due to tire size. Whatever 'the move' is called' I can no longer justify running with FC due to the fact that IT HAPPENS. The closing rate is so high that the vee has to drive in the mirrors (both of them) at EVERY TURN.. and even on the straights. I have had MANY incidents (thankfully not ACCIDENTS) where the overtaking car passed within INCHES of me.. and I had NO CLUE they were any where around. There is no justification for a WAY FASTER car to pass a slower car with less than a full car width clearance. Yes.. I know EXACTLY what it's like to have an FA blow past me. To me it's precisely like an FC passing me.

The few times the FC/FV mix has worked well is when there are only a very few of each.. and the overtaking car is generally NOT in a battle for position. When 2 FC's are approaching 1 or more vees, the 'game' is to use the vees as a 'pic'.. which means the leader HAS to make a 'close pass' on the vee.. and the 2nd place car also HAS to make an even more dangerous pass.. and all the vee can do is HOPE he doesn't get CLOBBERED/DESTROYED in the process.

3 years ago, CFR grouped FC with the vees at Sebring.. there were 8 vees grouped with 14 FC... I cancelled and stayed home. Results?... 10 of the FC were no shows and there were no incidents (between FC and FV) during the event. Is that a 'proof of concept' where it's obvious that FC and FV can live with each other ?? I have had WAY more 'close calls' than I want to have. Indy Runoffs in '21.... FC and FV together on test day.. the 2nd lap was BFA after a FC put a vee into the wall at T1. After 5+ minutes in the pits, BFA on the outlap - session over. 2nd session, the 'heads' split the vees and FCs... Both groups had perfect sessions - no cars were damaged.
I might enter a race where FC and FV are grouped together, but I'll be watching the car count. I think 5 and 5 is about the max that can run safely together.. and that's because FV can just stay out of the way of the FC, In our normal grouping of FF,F6,FV, I actually have more trouble with F6 than FF, but anything faster than those 2 is just TOO FAST for FV. As you say about FA closing on FC.. that's what? 165 closing on 140? How about 140 closing on 105?
Seems the faster cars (the ones that can SEE the slower cars ahead of them) are closing SO FAST, that it's obvious that they are going to get to the brake/turn-in point before the slower car will.. so they MAKE THE MOVE. The slower car might not even know the faster car is coming - I check mirrors just before the track disappears behind me at Road Atlanta..and even coming down the hill, but an FC hiding behind the T8 hill, can still beat me to 10A, get inside of me, forcing me off line and putting me and my car in jeopardy. If I am RACING with another vee, the results can be catastrophic. If I'm going up the hill at T5, an FC coming through 3 will not be visible to me until he catches me and forces me off line at T6 (it's happened!).

Obviously, it is better FOR YOU, to run with FV rather than FA - YOU have the control. FV has NO CONTROL over what you do... only YOU can choose to NOT make a dive bomb pass. But in my experience, it doesn't happen very often.

We would all like to have our own group - it's just not possible. We already have more groups than we can have and get 2 sessions in one day for everyone.

Steve, FV80

[problemchild]

Mixing FVs and FCs just does not work. It is the most dangerous pairing of classes that I have ever been a part of and I would withdraw my FV entry and go home before ever racing in that group. While I understand that the FC racers are so desperate for a better group for themselves that they will accept it, it is not fair to put FVs in that dangerous situation. To switch it up during the event is doubly unfair to the FV racers (who have made their commitments based on the original schedule.)

Just as East coast FF racers have done, if East Coast and Great Lakes FC racers want better racing, race with FRP.

[brian styczynski]

The FC vs FV argument needs some context. Go look at the results of the Homestead Majors race this year (and previous years) where the run group was FC, FF, F6, FV. With a little care on the part of the FCs, it works very well and has for many years.

The FC driver went out of his way to stay out of the FV groups way, maybe costing him 5 or 10 seconds. He was commended by all FV drivers, it was very noticeable what he did to not only avoid breaking up the lead FV battle, but avoid putting 4 cars in a dangerous situation. He may not have been so curtious if he didn't have a big lead. It was awesome to see. There were only a few cars in each class, so the only close racing on the track was a group of 3 FVs.

[kea]

FCs with FVs sounds like an absolutely terrible idea. Maybe there's some tracks where it works well but I'd hate to be a FV in that grouping. I've done FVs with FFs once before and while it's not pleasant getting lapped by the FFs, they're not all that much faster in the turns. I can't imagine Vees getting lapped by FCs is good for anyone.

If FF and FV running together is an issue to you, what we did in the 70's will make you shudder.

I raced a Fall SCCA regional at IRP (indiana) in 1975 or 6, FA, FB, FC, FF in a group. FA = F5000, 500HP, FB = Formula Atlantic 200HP, FC = 1300 cc race motors, 140HP?, FF, 105HP. There were no problems cause by this (at this event anyway), and was a common (but not always) mix. The slower cars could hear me (FA) coming and just gave it a little room to go by.

Most SCCA personnel have never really understood open wheel racers and their cars. This has been the case since I started in 1971.And as much as others may say otherwise, open wheel (and their Sport Racer cousins) are the only true race cars. Everything else is a compromise.
.

[grapefarmeral]

I agree with Steves quote
"The few times the FC/FV mix has worked well is when there are only a very few of each.. and the overtaking car is generally NOT in a battle for position. When 2 FC's are approaching 1 or more vees, the 'game' is to use the vees as a 'pic'.. which means the leader HAS to make a 'close pass' on the vee.. and the 2nd place car also HAS to make an even more dangerous pass.. and all the vee can do is HOPE he doesn't get CLOBBERED/DESTROYED in the process."

Over the years I have been in groups that have included F6, FF, FC FA and SRF. SRF is scary because in a FV you are the little guy that tends not to be seen and SRF is used to "rubbin", not good. A number of years ago I did the test day at Sebring where they grouped all open wheel classes and Prototypes. That was beyond terrifying. The closing rate of a prototype on a FV is unreal. Fortunately, no one was hurt, but at the hastily called drivers meeting at noon the prototypes were complaining that the FVs were too slow and shouldn't be allowed to run. I opened my mouth and said we paid as much for the test day as you did and you shouldn't be allowed to run. All agreed to play nice in the afternoon sessions, which everyone did, but it was a crap test day as they only thing most of us learned was that our mirrors worked...

[billtebbutt]

Admittedly it has been many years since my Nats days. But in the late 1990s Nats we would often run combined FC and FF, and it seemed to work just fine. I don't see why it couldn't work now to be honest. Pocono, in a train of FCs with my FF, was a whole lot of fun!

I would agree that mixing FV with.....well anything else, is a bad idea.

best
bt

[E1pix]

If FF and FV running together is an issue to you, what we did in the 70's will make you shudder.

I raced a Fall SCCA regional at IRP (indiana) in 1975 or 6, FA, FB, FC, FF in a group. FA = F5000, 500HP, FB = Formula Atlantic 200HP, FC = 1300 cc race motors, 140HP?, FF, 105HP. There were no problems cause by this (at this event anyway), and was a common (but not always) mix. The slower cars could hear me (FA) coming and just gave it a little room to go by.

Most SCCA personnel have never really understood open wheel racers and their cars. This has been the case since I started in 1971.And as much as others may say otherwise, open wheel (and their Sport Racer cousins) are the only true race cars. Everything else is a compromise.
.

Those were sure The Days.

Same run group at the June Sprints forever — except F Super Vee instead of Ford. Somehow it worked even with three big straights, a twenty- or thirty-second lap time spread, and a LOT of cars — completely different mindset, I guess.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

There is no justification for a WAY FASTER car to pass a slower car with less than a full car width clearance. Yes.. I know EXACTLY what it's like to have an FA blow past me. To me it's precisely like an FC passing me.

I agree. Dangerous.

You have no bad experience with FF ? What about SRF?

For me it's the P1 cars. Very few super-fast FA come out. Mainly cars re-classed FA (PFM/F1000).

[SV@RHC]

Hey, it could be like the SFR. They have decided that due to low car counts they will combine P1, P2, FE2, FC, FF, CF, FST and FV. Now THAT sounds like fun.....

[John Nesbitt]

Hey, it could be like the SFR. They have decided that due to low car counts they will combine P1, P2, FE2, FC, FF, CF, FST and FV. Now THAT sounds like fun.....

And therein lies the rub. WDCR went through a similar exercise over a span of ~15 years - from 3 run groups to 1. Driven purely and simply by car numbers.

By all means, drivers should vote with their feet (and event entries, and dollars). I did. But understand that there is a flip side to that coin - once a run group (or entire event) is gone, there is virtually zero chance that it will ever come back.

[DaveW]

...The slower cars could hear me (FA) coming and just gave it a little room to go by...

Nowadays with sound limits, my own engine and wind noise, good helmets, and radio cups or earbuds you usually can't hear anything coming up behind you until they are alongside. So the only warning is watching the mirrors as much as possible.

I try to point faster cars past, but if I don't know they're there...FA's, P1's, etc., as much as I try to see them coming, are sometimes passing basically w/o warning. In that case, one just has to be predictable so they can pass w/o incident.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

And therein lies the rub. WDCR went through a similar exercise over a span of ~15 years - from 3 run groups to 1. Driven purely and simply by car numbers.

By all means, drivers should vote with their feet (and event entries, and dollars). I did. But understand that there is a flip side to that coin - once a run group (or entire event) is gone, there is virtually zero chance that it will ever come back.

And out west we have SCCA and VARA. Nothing like FRP.

[Steve Davis]

I agree. Dangerous.

You have no bad experience with FF ? What about SRF?

...

Initially, we DID have some issues with FF.. but over the years, it has been MUCH better. Mostly because they are easier to see (less fast closing rate) and , if *I* see a pack coming, I just get out of it well before the corner and let them all go. Sometimes it really doesn't work out. About 3 or 4 years ago, the lead 'x pack' (at least 9 of 'em) of FF caught the lead '4 pack' of FV coming down the hill to 10A at Road Atlanta. Somehow, we all made it. There's a video of it. I watched it quite a few times (I was IN that Vee pack) and I still don't know how we all managed it. I think it might have been Brian Sty' that posted the link. THAT was some nifty driving by all.... yep.. it was Brian.. here's the link (it's about 1 minute in.. https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/sho...her-in-Atlanta

As for SRF, the only time FV has been grouped with us is during test days. The vees have to GIVE WAY in all cases. SRF used to be quite a problem, but since the new motor, they are now as fast as FF - leaving FV ZERO choices except to stay out of the way. I have noticed that SRF is doing a better job overall of making the decision to NOT pass (some times). Last test day at Atlanta, I was out with SRF - saw one behind me in a 'questionable' situation coming out of T5. I moved to give room early and pointed him by before T6.. he still elected to WAIT and passed me coming out of 7. Who knows?? it MIGHT have been his first day ever at that track.

Steve, FV80

[Agitator]

The FC vs FV argument needs some context. Go look at the results of the Homestead Majors race this year (and previous years) where the run group was FC, FF, F6, FV. With a little care on the part of the FCs, it works very well and has for many years.

Yes, there is a big speed differential, but no different than FA or P1 vs FC. In fact that speed differential makes it easier and probably safer to race together. The FC vs FE2 situation is that they are very similar in lap times but make the laps differently (same as the FC vs Star Mazda). Give the FE2 some decent 3 way shocks and a diffuser, they will be significantly faster than the current FC both on the straight and in the corners; a lot of the problem will go away.

I totally agree with the last paragraph of your statement, Bob. Although it would be at my expense (FE2 driver), If "we" could corner with (or better) than an FC, then the problem would probably be resolved. No, you can't eliminate bonehead moves, but you are on point with the fact that both cars turn similar times, in different ways. I have heard rumors that a new nose/front wing is in development for FE2. While I don't want to buy a new assembly for my car, if it would help create some gap between the two classes, I'll open my wallet.

As a former FV driver, I'd rather figure out the FC/FE2 debate than to run either class with Vees.

[924RACR]

Vote with your feet!!!

Has no-one noticed that the Mid-O Super Tour this year in May has a separate run group for FC???

Probably not - turnout for all groups is relatively low yet... but there area already 4 FCs signed up.

Hope to see you there...

I guess not too many people in this thread want to go do Mid-O...

[brian styczynski]

Initially, we DID have some issues with FF.. but over the years, it has been MUCH better. Mostly because they are easier to see (less fast closing rate) and , if *I* see a pack coming, I just get out of it well before the corner and let them all go. Sometimes it really doesn't work out. About 3 or 4 years ago, the lead 'x pack' (at least 9 of 'em) of FF caught the lead '4 pack' of FV coming down the hill to 10A at Road Atlanta. Somehow, we all made it. There's a video of it. I watched it quite a few times (I was IN that Vee pack) and I still don't know how we all managed it. I think it might have been Brian Sty' that posted the link. THAT was some nifty driving by all.... yep.. it was Brian.. here's the link (it's about 1 minute in.. https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/sho...her-in-Atlanta


Steve, FV80

That was just last year, and impressive by all involved. But so much passing under yellow on the last lap........(or appears to be anyway)

[brian styczynski]

Initially, we DID have some issues with FF.. but over the years, it has been MUCH better. Mostly because they are easier to see (less fast closing rate) and , if *I* see a pack coming, I just get out of it well before the corner and let them all go. Sometimes it really doesn't work out. About 3 or 4 years ago, the lead 'x pack' (at least 9 of 'em) of FF caught the lead '4 pack' of FV coming down the hill to 10A at Road Atlanta. Somehow, we all made it. There's a video of it. I watched it quite a few times (I was IN that Vee pack) and I still don't know how we all managed it. I think it might have been Brian Sty' that posted the link. THAT was some nifty driving by all.... yep.. it was Brian.. here's the link (it's about 1 minute in.. https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/sho...her-in-Atlanta

As for SRF, the only time FV has been grouped with us is during test days. The vees have to GIVE WAY in all cases. SRF used to be quite a problem, but since the new motor, they are now as fast as FF - leaving FV ZERO choices except to stay out of the way. I have noticed that SRF is doing a better job overall of making the decision to NOT pass (some times). Last test day at Atlanta, I was out with SRF - saw one behind me in a 'questionable' situation coming out of T5. I moved to give room early and pointed him by before T6.. he still elected to WAIT and passed me coming out of 7. Who knows?? it MIGHT have been his first day ever at that track.

Steve, FV80

This was FF and FV tonight, on iRacing of all places.
https://www.youtube.com/live/HqzqtWm...Y8UF05U&t=4909
A little awareness and respect goes a long way.