Saving FF Runoffs Races

[problemchild]

It always amazes me that some drivers seem pretty good on soft slicks but stink on hard slicks or street tires. Rather than learning to drive better, they often become the leaders of the lobby to keep running the soft slicks. We see that regularly with the spec radial used in SCCA.

In terms of setup with the street tires, you need to ignore any inclination to do any tuning before the tire is sliding. You can only do your tuning once the driver is driving hard enough to get the car "dancing" on the tires. It is often a struggle for lessor drivers to get to that point, but once you start tuning for maximum non-sliding grip, it makes the transition to the "dancing" phase that much more difficult. I consider all this to be a "positive" that rewards the best drivers. The really really good ones are able to get their cars "dancing" on the soft slicks!

[DaveW]

...You can only do your tuning once the driver is driving hard enough to get the car "dancing" on the tires. It is often a struggle for lessor drivers to get to that point, but once you start tuning for maximum non-sliding grip, it makes the transition to the "dancing" phase that much more difficult. I consider all this to be a "positive" that rewards the best drivers. The really really good ones are able to get their cars "dancing" on the soft slicks!

I always try to get to the "dancing" phase of driving the car. That's when you and the car are so connected that driving the car is just like doing things with your own body - the car is an extension of the driver and feels totally natural so conscious thinking about how to do it is not necessary. You're thinking only about race strategy, tire management, etc. When I'm in that state the race just flows. I even have trouble remembering race details after it's over.

[stonebridge20]

I always try to get to the "dancing" phase of driving the car. That's when you and the car are so connected that driving the car is just like doing things with your own body - the car is an extension of the driver and feels totally natural so conscious thinking about how to do it is not necessary. You're thinking only about race strategy, tire management, etc. When I'm in that state the race just flows. I even have trouble remembering race details after it's over.

This ^

[David Clubine]

Is the Toyo Proxis R888 tire really a DOT/street tire? It looks like race/slick tire with a few grooves.

Yes the Toyo is a DOT tire. It has the DOT number and a wear rating.

[mmi16]

Speaking mostly as Fanboy now…

But if this worked and helped return the Runoffs to its former glory, I think SCCA could not only heal a lot of wounds — but also show proper respect to *the class* that produced more Pro careers than any other it’s ever run since the very beginning.

It could also well be enough to get some of us on the fence to re-commit to racing, and fund greater event profitability at the same time.

I also suspect there’s a lot more like me than the Club may realize. Short-term profit is never a valid substitute for long-term passion.

SCCA's Runoff's glory days were when SCCA was the ONLY club racing organization in the nation. That day has long since passed.

[Hardingfv32]

Yes the Toyo is a DOT tire. It has the DOT number and a wear rating.

I believe it also has steel belts.

Brian

[Robert J. Alder]

I always try to get to the "dancing" phase of driving the car. That's when you and the car are so connected that driving the car is just like doing things with your own body - the car is an extension of the driver and feels totally natural so conscious thinking about how to do it is not necessary. You're thinking only about race strategy, tire management, etc. When I'm in that state the race just flows. I even have trouble remembering race details after it's over.

Indeed, "A dance with the track." A shameless video promo for the RMVR Vintage Racing, but skip to skip to 3 min. 20 secs for my "thumbs up" on Dave's comment above. Nothing else like it!

Just wish I could "dance" as well as I used to (sigh) .

[billtebbutt]

I believe it also has steel belts.

Brian

Correct. It is a proper high performance street tire. To many of the earlier points made, there are material differences as a result, not the least of which is sidewall stiffness (others sharper than me can talk about how that affects spring/wheel rates on a relative-to-slicks basis, but I believe it to be be a significant difference to a driver in terms of how the car feels and reacts to inputs).

best,
bt

[DaveW]

I always try to get to the "dancing" phase of driving the car. That's when you and the car are so connected that driving the car is just like doing things with your own body - the car is an extension of the driver and feels totally natural so conscious thinking about how to do it is not necessary. You're thinking only about race strategy, tire management, etc. When I'm in that state the race just flows. I even have trouble remembering race details after it's over.

My best "dance partner" was the outboard rear suspension Z16. That car was magic. I could do anything I wanted anywhere on the track, including braking hard at high speed in a fast corner, which for most cars would have led to a spin.

[E1pix]

SCCA's Runoff's glory days were when SCCA was the ONLY club racing organization in the nation. That day has long since passed.

Part of it, Yes.

I was also eluding to having as many fans at the Runoffs as they were at some period Can-Ams. Those fans didn’t split off to NASA races, they just split.

The challenge might be realizing how to get them back, only a few hundred of us come now.

[Peter Olivola]

Part of it, Yes.

I was also eluding to having as many fans at the Runoffs as they were at some period Can-Ams. Those fans didn’t split off to NASA races, they just split.

The challenge might be realizing how to get them back, only a few hundred of us come now.

Probably the main reason there were big crowds at the Road Atlanta ARRC Runoffs was its longevity at a single location and date. Neither of which has anything to do with NASA, marque clubs or vintage. I wouldn't advocate for a return to that model as too much has changed in the interim. I do think we are heading for a geographic split within the club.

[mmi16]

Probably the main reason there were big crowds at the Road Atlanta ARRC Runoffs was its longevity at a single location and date. Neither of which has anything to do with NASA, marque clubs or vintage. I wouldn't advocate for a return to that model as too much has changed in the interim. I do think we are heading for a geographic split within the club.

When the Runoffs was changed into a yearly traveling road show - it lost its luster, its heartbeat.

[Jonathan Lee]

In my opinion:

SCCA Regional racing is the best value for money in terms of track time

FRP is the best value for money in terms of competition

The runoffs doesn't really make sense in terms of time. I would much rather spend my time doing regionals for track time and FRP when I have the money to compete.




--

SRF3 is only highly attended at a number of events, the runoffs for them kind of make sense.

FF is still widely popular and isn't going anywhere, FF competitors have chosen to attend different events and clubs other than the National SCCA events and runoffs.

No offense to anyone, but the top 20 FF drivers will destroy the top 20 drivers in any club racing class.
The quality of the fast guys are second to none, outside of professional racing.

Long live Formula Ford 1600, one of the most fun cars to drive, tough difficult on track battles, and still cheap for the racing world!




As a younger person who aspires to become a professional driver, FF is the only place in my eyes that will teach me everything I need to know on track, keep my driving sharp until bigger opportunities open up, and is a class that I can afford.
Karting, Miatas, SRF3, FE2, etc. cannot provide me with what I need!

FF is real racing and the most effective way to hone your skills as a driver.

[Larry H]

I agree somewhat with "Turd-in-the-Punch Bowl".

The bottom line is if SCCA doesn't think that FF is important, it will disappear from the RunOffs, as a grid size of 8 is not logically sustainable for the RunOffs. If SCCA thinks that FF is important for the RunOffs, then they need to change their old thinking and make FF as equitable as to attract as many as possible FFs in North America. There are ways around the money situation or boosting local SCCA racing. It won't take much in most regions.

I would hate to see FF disappear or decline in competitiveness. For me, at club level racing, there is no better bang for the buck than FF. The next step up would be a bodied sports car class and that is another $25K to $30K more in a car and higher operating expenses with less of a visceral experience.

Not sure that many would agree that if all FFs ran a North American FF tire that would best equalize performance between the older FF and the modern FF, the common tire would go a long way to sustaining FF. For example, the North America FF tire would allow club racers to dip their toe in SCCA racing and boost their numbers.

[andyllc]

I am not sure that you could get the vintage guys to come back to SCCA no matter what you do.

Also, the new Super Tour schedule is awful. You are guaranteed to have close to a 24 hour break somewhere in the middle of your event. Losing the extra session at the beginning of the weekend has really taken away from the value of the weekend.

Right now you basically go on track twice Friday, once Saturday, and once Sunday, or you go on track once Friday, twice Saturday, and once Sunday.
If you know the track, you are tempted to just skip the Thursday test day and Friday session and just show up for Saturday and Sunday if you are one of the groups that has two sessions on Saturday.

Hard to fix the Runoffs if the events to qualify are no fun.

[rockbeau25]

Also, the new Super Tour schedule is awful. You are guaranteed to have close to a 24 hour break somewhere in the middle of your event. Losing the extra session at the beginning of the weekend has really taken away from the value of the weekend.

Good thing we have two Spec Miata groups now though! I seem to remember a thread here back when SMX was announced and we were assured they would not change the run groupings. That lasted all of about 2 months. Pretty soon we can have one run group for every generation of Miata.

[John Nesbitt]

I agree somewhat with "Turd-in-the-Punch Bowl".

The bottom line is if SCCA doesn't think that FF is important, it will disappear from the RunOffs, as a grid size of 8 is not logically sustainable for the RunOffs. If SCCA thinks that FF is important for the RunOffs, then they need to change their old thinking and make FF as equitable as to attract as many as possible FFs in North America. There are ways around the money situation or boosting local SCCA racing. It won't take much in most regions.

...

I think that a better way to formulate that statement would be, “If FF doesn’t think that the Runoffs are important, then FF will disappear from the Runoffs.”

The way for FF to assure its Runoffs future is for more FF cars to qualify and enter. That boils down to a series of individual decisions by each owner.

Be careful about raising the question of equity. Ask yourself where the equity is in having a run group of 8 FF cars, subsidized by a run group of 50 SM cars. Heck, even SMX in its first year drew 18 cars. So, I advise against complaining about lack of equitable treatment.

The fact is that every event, from the smallest regional to the Runoffs, is an exercise in rationing – dividing limited track time among the various entries. That is where the equity comes in. Large run groups subsidize small run groups, but only up to a point.

I would be very curious to learn what you think might be ways around the money situation. I spent a number of years dealing with race organization and region finances for a jumbo region, and can assure you that there is no Save-a-Class reserve fund anywhere. Regions typically organize events on a breakeven basis, and many/most racing regions are within an unsuccessful event or two of insolvency.

[Rick Kirchner]

I dunno.

Seems to be the decline in all open wheel is a combination of both too conservative rules-making and too ambitious. That makes the classes stale on one hand and disenfranchises people on the other. Both have been employed in the wrong way, at the wrong time, across every class of open wheel since the 80s for the most part.

As a secondary factor, consider that the SCCA's classes used to be stepping stones to pro racing, with local hotshoes filling in the grids. Now, every top level series seems to have its own internal ladder, with cars that don't fit the club rules and therefore no connection to the rest of us - other than to get said cars dumped into the club market every 10 years and creating havoc as people want to find a space for them - in no small part due to the collapse of the new chassis market in club.

Kids go straight from karts to the ladder series. No kart? Then have daddy write a check to a prep shop for a season of club and then a much bigger one for one of the few seats in the ladder series.

A lot of folks here voted for and supported the people that gave us this, so we are both the perpetrator and the victim.

[Speed Sport Engineering]

I am not sure that you could get the vintage guys to come back to SCCA no matter what you do.

Also, the new Super Tour schedule is awful. You are guaranteed to have close to a 24 hour break somewhere in the middle of your event. Losing the extra session at the beginning of the weekend has really taken away from the value of the weekend.

Right now you basically go on track twice Friday, once Saturday, and once Sunday, or you go on track once Friday, twice Saturday, and once Sunday.
If you know the track, you are tempted to just skip the Thursday test day and Friday session and just show up for Saturday and Sunday if you are one of the groups that has two sessions on Saturday.

Hard to fix the Runoffs if the events to qualify are no fun.

While I agree that more track time is better, I would happily trade one track session for better quality track time in the others.

Those that have been around for a while know that SCCA events were never more then 3 sessions over a 2 day weekend. So is 4 sessions over 3 days really that bad? Not sure where the expectation became that a weekend should have 3 hours of track time or it's a bad value. I grew up with 3 sessions a weekend. It sure seemed fine back then.

[andyllc]

While I agree that more track time is better, I would happily trade one track session for better quality track time in the others.

Those that have been around for a while know that SCCA events were never more then 3 sessions over a 2 day weekend. So is 4 sessions over 3 days really that bad? Not sure where the expectation became that a weekend should have 3 hours of track time or it's a bad value. I grew up with 3 sessions a weekend. It sure seemed fine back then.

37 year SCCA member so not very new.
In my post, 3 sessions over 2 days is what I said most should do by just showing up Saturday and skipping Thursday and Friday.

But if you are unlucky and have 2 sessions Friday then, yes, it is pretty bad waiting when for the last 6-8 years you didn't have nearly as big of a gap. It is one thing at the Runoffs where it has been the expectation for a million years, different at this level.

Also if you skip half of the event to make it worth while then that in itself should show a big problem, right?

If we are going to add more groups then I would rather we shorten sessions than take away a session altogether.
These are sprint races, does it really mean that much if qualifying is 20 minutes versus 25 or a race is 25 instead of 35? Not to me but to each their own.

[Larry H]

Be careful about raising the question of equity. Ask yourself where the equity is in having a run group of 8 FF cars, subsidized by a run group of 50 SM cars. Heck, even SMX in its first year drew 18 cars. So, I advise against complaining about lack of equitable treatment.

The fact is that every event, from the smallest regional to the Runoffs, is an exercise in rationing – dividing limited track time among the various entries. That is where the equity comes in. Large run groups subsidize small run groups, but only up to a point.

Yes, there is no rational reason to keep a class of 8 cars on the RunOff schedule. My use of equity was in reference to equalizing FFs (old to modern) as much as possible, which would create a larger pool of racers that might be interested in the RunOffs.

I know nothing about finances of SCCA events but if SCCA is committed to support FF, revenue and costs has to better with 50 FF showing up at the RunOffs with 4 or 5 showing up at the Regionals vs 8 FF at the RunOff and 2 or 3 showing up at Regionals. Additional income could go to the regions by charging non-SCCA participants more for RunOff entry fee.

I just hate to watch FF continue to decline but it appears that we will be better off this year than last with the club I run with.

[Garey Guzman]

To be clear, I don't think FF is in real jeopardy of being eliminated as a class, ranking 11th in class participation in 2023 Majors. However, it's very likely that a lot of FF owners/drivers would rather race more often or with FRP than burn nearly 2 weeks of vacation plus a couple sets of tires and supplies. Even camping, that's some expensive time off. With me, I'd rather own an HFF and race on treaded tires with more people at my favorite tracks.

Kind of crazy that this could reach 3 pages of comments but I can't say much since I'm participating!

[Peter Olivola]

To be clear, I don't think FF is in real jeopardy of being eliminated as a class, ranking 11th in class participation in 2023 Majors. However, it's very likely that a lot of FF owners/drivers would rather race more often or with FRP than burn nearly 2 weeks of vacation plus a couple sets of tires and supplier. Even camping, that's some expensive time off. With me, I'd rather own an HFF and race on treaded tires with more people at my favorite tracks.

Kind of crazy that this could reach 3 pages of comments but I can't say much since I'm participating!

This contributes to validating Bill Kephart's original premise for creating the Majors/Super Tour programs:

There are two types of competitors in the SCCA.

• Those with the means and desire to compete against the best competition they can find
• Those who want to race at their local tracks/with their friends

[Mike B]

There are two types of competitors in the SCCA.

• Those with the means and desire to compete against the best competition they can find
• Those who want to race at their local tracks/with their friends

Sort of like the old Regionals and Nationals structure we had before the introduction of Majors and Super Tour and Divisionals?

[problemchild]

There are two types of competitors in the SCCA.

• Those with the means and desire to compete against the best competition they can find
• Those who want to race at their local tracks/with their friends

If you raced FF or FV in the Northeast and Central divisions in the 80s and 90s, you could do both. Those were great times! Most of us were working-class people who worked 5 days a week and covered a lot of miles on Friday and Sunday nights. Those were great times!

But that was before FE,FST,CF,CFC,F5, and F440, FC had very small numbers. If we took all our OW drivers and put them in only 2 classes, we would have 2 decent sized grids. The world has changed. Grocery stores were 1/5th the size because each product had 2-5 different variations. Today each product has 20 different variations. I have no solution to offer ..... just the commentary.

[Peter Olivola]

Sort of like the old Regionals and Nationals structure we had before the introduction of Majors and Super Tour and Divisionals?

Majors/Super Tours are an answer to an entirely different question. The sheer number of Nationals was unsustainable. It was directly responsible for triggering the CenDiv split (there were other contributing factors, but that was prime.) Divisionals are just Regionals designated as Runoffs qualifiers. At this point, I wonder how many Regionals aren't.

The difference then is there are fewer Majors/Super Tours than Nationals and Regionals are unaffected by the change.

[Peter Olivola]

If you raced FF or FV in the Northeast and Central divisions in the 80s and 90s, you could do both. Those were great times! Most of us were working-class people who worked 5 days a week and covered a lot of miles on Friday and Sunday nights. Those were great times!

But that was before FE,FST,CF,CFC,F5, and F440, FC had very small numbers. If we took all our OW drivers and put them in only 2 classes, we would have 2 decent sized grids. The world has changed. Grocery stores were 1/5th the size because each product had 2-5 different variations. Today each product has 20 different variations. I have no solution to offer ..... just the commentary.

In hindsight, there have been some really bad decisions made by SCCA wrt the open wheel classes. Some of those decisions were obviously bad at the time they were made. One of the self inflicted difficulties was creating a process for achieving and maintaining "National" status and then completely ignoring it to create new "National" classes.

It remains to be seen if the club will actually follow its own rules in creating and maintaining Runoffs eligibility. Early indications are they won't. I'm looking at you SMX.

[Mike B]

It remains to be seen if the club will actually follow its own rules in creating and maintaining Runoffs eligibility. Early indications are they won't. I'm looking at you SMX, GT1 and FA.

Fixed it for you.

[John Nesbitt]

In hindsight, there have been some really bad decisions made by SCCA wrt the open wheel classes. Some of those decisions were obviously bad at the time they were made. One of the self inflicted difficulties was creating a process for achieving and maintaining "National" status and then completely ignoring it to create new "National" classes.

It remains to be seen if the club will actually follow its own rules in creating and maintaining Runoffs eligibility. Early indications are they won't. I'm looking at you SMX.

It remains to be seen if the club will actually follow its own rules in creating and maintaining Runoffs eligibility. Early indications are they won't. I'm looking at you SMX, GT1 and FA.

Fixed it for you.

And don't forget FX and GTX.

[mmi16]

And don't forget FX and GTX.

What? No XXX?