Saving FF Runoffs Races

[Mace Gjerman]

I think there should be serious consideration of making Club Ford/Historic Ford a National Class run with the FF cars at the runoffs.

Regionals and especially Historic races have large fields across the country and if only a small percentage of those competitors chose to compete for a National Championship we would have a large and exciting field at the Runoffs.

The cars could run on the the bias ply slick or even the vintage tire that is only 2-4 seconds a lap slower than the slick.

Well prepared and reasonably driven cars would not be lapped and would not interfere with the FF race.

[Lotus7]

hmmm, interesting, but how do they qualify for the runoffs?

[Mace Gjerman]

hmmm, interesting, but how do they qualify for the runoffs?

The same way FF qualify, it would improve entries in Majors and Super Tours also.

[Peter Olivola]

The same way FF qualify, it would improve entries in Majors and Super Tours also.

Are those cars not SCCA FF legal now?

[fleetdude]

Before the tire rule change to the current radial, so-called club fords and vintage fords were eligible for National points, events, run-offs, etc. they didn't show up because, when they did, they were hopelessly uncompetitive, regardless of tires. the rules changes for Honda engines and the radial tire, both promising to "increase competition", combined with chassis development to capitalize on those changes, plus aero development, plus a plethora of semi-pro small formula series, raised the cost of FF to a non-sustainable level. FF is dead; thank goodness for Club Ford (with restricted tires and Ford engines) in Vintage race groups.

[Lotus7]

The same way FF qualify, it would improve entries in Majors and Super Tours also.

so you're suggesting a bunch of CF guys are going to enter FF races in majors and supertours next year to qualify for the 2025 runoffs? they'd probably first want to see an assurance from scca that their CF class would be recognized on the 2025 runoffs podium.

[Mace Gjerman]

so you're suggesting a bunch of CF guys are going to enter FF races in majors and supertours next year to qualify for the 2025 runoffs? they'd probably first want to see an assurance from scca that their CF class would be recognized on the 2025 runoffs podium.

Exactly, Club Ford needs to be a recognized National Class to attract entries.
No one will enter a Club Ford in FF when Swifts aren't even competitive in FF.

If something isn't done there wont be a FF national class.

There is nothing to lose, if no one enters FF is done, if Club Fords enter, FF can continue with small fields followed by larger fields of CF's.

Some CF entrants may even choose to step up to FF in future years.

[rockbeau25]

I think those large vintage fields are mostly people that don't want to race SCCA.

[Mace Gjerman]

I think those large vintage fields are mostly people that don't want to race SCCA.

You are probably right about most CF Vintage guys not wanting to run in SCCA but if only a small percentage choose to qualify for and run the Runoffs there would be a great field of cars.

I just started running the Vintage Crossflow Cup in CA. with big fields, there's no way I'm going to leave Crossflow but it's only 4 weekends a year and it would be nice to be able to run SCCA and qualify for the Runoffs.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

I think those large vintage fields are mostly people that don't want to race SCCA.

The reason being? .... Not competitive?

Which is sort of Mace's point....

But there are going to be those that say not interested because they were shunned by the SCCA before...

[John LaRue]

Informally the question had been raised as to whether it would be possible allow the vintage Hoosier tire in FF given the spec tire requirement. That appears possible but a letter has not been submitted so it is difficult to say whether or not there is any interest.

[John LaRue]

The reason being? .... Not competitive?

Which is sort of Mace's point....

But there are going to be those that say not interested because they were shunned by the SCCA before...

Everyone that I am involved with is working hard to overcome the sins of the past and improve SCCA and its events. There is always room for improvement as well as new people and new ideas. Without a crystal ball it is not possible to know what the future holds for the spinoff organizations and sanctioning bodies. Usually they are organized by one or two enthusiasts and do quite well until the principals lose interest. At that point the program either is shut down or, if it is viable, sold to another organization or individuals. I have come to realize that for purposes of posterity SCCA is our best bet.

[rockbeau25]

The reason being? .... Not competitive?

Which is sort of Mace's point....

But there are going to be those that say not interested because they were shunned by the SCCA before...

I can’t speak for vintage racers but that certainly could be part of it. I’d also go out on a limb and guess rain lights/flagtronics/general SCCA politics, the Fit engine, rising entry fees, more laid back racing, alphabet soup run groups, less track time, personal preference, etc could also play a part in it (although I’d argue run groups and track time are bigger problems in vintage than SCCA). The overall sentiment I get from vintage racers just from reading posts here is they’re either former SCCA racers that were fed up, or they never gave SCCA any thought in the first place. There are a group of about 5-10 FCs locally here, some of which are very nice cars and would probably do well in SCCA racing, that do their 3 vintage races at Road America each year and don’t think twice about SCCA.

FWIW, I really like Mace’s idea and agree with the sentiment behind it. Those FF guys or people like the FC guys I mentioned are who the club should be trying to reach. I’d much rather see that than yet another Miata group.

[Mace Gjerman]

Informally the question had been raised as to whether it would be possible allow the vintage Hoosier tire in FF given the spec tire requirement. That appears possible but a letter has not been submitted so it is difficult to say whether or not there is any interest.

To be clear I'm not suggesting anyone in a Club Ford will be interested in running FF with slicks or VFF tires.

I'm suggesting there are CF racers like myself that would be interested in running CF as a National Championship class run concurrently with FF at the Runoffs.

[Lotus7]

To be clear I'm not suggesting anyone in a Club Ford will be interested in running FF with slicks or VFF tires.

I'm suggesting there are CF racers like myself that would be interested in running CF as a National Championship class run concurrently with FF at the Runoffs.

Sorry, my fault if I'm misunderstanding, but it sounds like you're saying CF wouldn't be interested in running regularly with FF during the season, but wants to run in the FF class as a sub-group just at the runoffs?
(Not trying to be antagonistic, just not clear to me yet)

[stonebridge20]

Any CF is eligible to race FF in SCCA.

Any CF can "qualify" to go to the Runoffs.

Go to the Runoffs and if other CF's show up, the first one over the line can call themselves National Champion.

Case closed.

[J Weida]

You guys obviously don't get it. Thats why numbers continue to decrease. In a few years FE2 will be the only national class

[E1pix]

I don’t know which guys “don’t get it,” but sure hope you’re wrong — and plenty of people are trying to make sure that doesn’t happen.

A little positive thinking can help, and the inverse probably can’t. Formula Vee for one is certainly still strong, and not going away anytime soon.

Nice drive at the Runoffs, by the way.

[Lee Johnson]

Sorry, my fault if I'm misunderstanding, but it sounds like you're saying CF wouldn't be interested in running regularly with FF during the season, but wants to run in the FF class as a sub-group just at the runoffs?
(Not trying to be antagonistic, just not clear to me yet)

I think the suggestion is that CF should a specific class of cars that--
1) compete with one another (for points/trophies) in any and all SCCA race weekends;
2) might be in the same run-group with FF-class cars, or have their own specific run-group (as appropriate to the numbers of entries for each class at each event);
3) would accumulate CF-class points to qualify for the Run Offs, and;
4) would compete against one another for CF-class National Champion at the Run Offs.

Presumably, a CF-class eligible entrant/driver could declare they are running in FF (as long as they comply with FF-specific rules, like a FF-spec tire that is different from a CF-spec tire).

[Mace Gjerman]

I think the suggestion is that CF should a specific class of cars that--
1) compete with one another (for points/trophies) in any and all SCCA race weekends;
2) might be in the same run-group with FF-class cars, or have their own specific run-group (as appropriate to the numbers of entries for each class at each event);
3) would accumulate CF-class points to qualify for the Run Offs, and;
4) would compete against one another for CF-class National Champion at the Run Offs.

Presumably, a CF-class eligible entrant/driver could declare they are running in FF (as long as they comply with FF-specific rules, like a FF-spec tire that is different from a CF-spec tire).

Lee Johnson is correct, this is exactly what I am suggesting.
Thanks

[Larry H]

Exactly, Club Ford needs to be a recognized National Class to attract entries.
No one will enter a Club Ford in FF when Swifts aren't even competitive in FF.

If something isn't done there wont be a FF national class.

There is nothing to lose, if no one enters FF is done, if Club Fords enter, FF can continue with small fields followed by larger fields of CF's.

Some CF entrants may even choose to step up to FF in future years.

Why not just make the Hoosier VFF the spec tire for FF? I'll bet that there will at least 8 CF show up, which would equal the number of FF that showed up at the 2023 Runoffs.

I'm ducking for cover.

[DanW]

Why not just make the Hoosier VFF the spec tire for FF? I'll bet that there will at least 8 CF show up, which would equal the number of FF that showed up at the 2023 Runoffs.

I'm ducking for cover.

I will say that the treaded vintage tires equalize 12 years of chassis development from 1969 to 1981 and give some excellent close racing with lots of four wheel drifting from those skilled enough to do so.

[Lotus7]

I'm pretty sure the FF guys who show up for the runoffs dont want a slower class of cars in their race, and equally, the LAST thing scca needs is another separate run group.

If you want to run the runoffs, see Stonebridge post.
If you want your own run group, petition scca. Be prepared for pushback.

[stonebridge20]

I'm pretty sure the FF guys who show up for the runoffs dont want a slower class of cars in their race.

CF's can run pretty well with the front half of a FF field if you drive the wheels off of them on equal tires.
In 04 for a laugh and a bit of praying for rain, Treadway and I took our vintage cars to the Runoffs. Treadway in a RF80 and me in a 77 Datsun 200SX tub GT3 car. We both actually won a few nationals that year in those old tanks to qualify.
It was by far the most fun I ever had at the Runoffs.

[SteveG]

CF's can run pretty well with the front half of a FF field if you drive the wheels off of them on equal tires.
In 04 for a laugh and a bit of praying for rain, Treadway and I took our vintage cars to the Runoffs. Treadway in a RF80 and me in a 77 Datsun 200SX tub GT3 car. We both actually won a few nationals that year in those old tanks to qualify.
It was by far the most fun I ever had at the Runoffs.

Mike,

All of the fun aside, I'm pretty sure the OP was suggesting that SCCA make CF a national class maybe per Monoposto CF rules and Avon/Hoosier tires.
20 years ago is different than today, I doubt anyone wants to spend 5 figure $ to finish 11th in FF today.

Steve

[E1pix]

Mike, how awesome is that??? I’m a sucker for old results sheets and have hundreds in storage.

The Missus’ first car was a ‘78, and my how we loved that car.

Off-topic to Guinness levels, you’ll enjoy this. I directed the affable driver to this last week, he’d forgotten it ever existed:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GVD1lm...IGNsYXNzaWM%3D

[stonebridge20]

Mike,

All of the fun aside, I'm pretty sure the OP was suggesting that SCCA make CF a national class maybe per Monoposto CF rules and Avon/Hoosier tires.
20 years ago is different than today, I doubt anyone wants to spend 5 figure $ to finish 11th in FF today.

Steve

Steve, there's absolutely no difference between the Runoffs of 20 years ago and the Runoffs of today except 20 years ago you actually had to be fairly good to get an invite so the level of competition went pretty deep in every class.Today anyone can go and run to whatever level they like or can afford.

The cost for the Runoffs of today is no different than any other race except for the cost of a few more nights at the hotel.

I wish the OP luck if he pursues the idea of trying to get CF national status but I doubt neither you or I will be alive to see it happen.

Sincerely, Old man yelling at the clouds.

[problemchild]

Before the tire rule change to the current radial, so-called club fords and vintage fords were eligible for National points, events, run-offs, etc. they didn't show up because, when they did, they were hopelessly uncompetitive, regardless of tires. the rules changes for Honda engines and the radial tire, both promising to "increase competition", combined with chassis development to capitalize on those changes, plus aero development, plus a plethora of semi-pro small formula series, raised the cost of FF to a non-sustainable level. FF is dead; thank goodness for Club Ford (with restricted tires and Ford engines) in Vintage race groups.

I think you need a history lesson. The decline of the class started decades before Honda engines or spec tires, when poor decisions by those guiding the class in the 80s and 90s, opened barn doors that never could be closed again. I left the class in 1992 for that reason, and returned 20 years later, but could not be competitive as a "working class" racer in either time period.

[Mace Gjerman]

I think you need a history lesson. The decline of the class started decades before Honda engines or spec tires, when poor decisions by those guiding the class in the 80s and 90s, opened barn doors that never could be closed again. I left the class in 1992 for that reason, and returned 20 years later, but could not be competitive as a "working class" racer in either time period.

From the OP
Thanks Everyone for your input!

I just wanted to float an idea that might keep FF going as a National Championship class and give the CF a place to compete also.

I have entered 2 Majors and 1 Super Tour in a FV this year, the FF entries have been,
1 (outdated Swift)
3 (1 outdated Swift)
0
2 current FF entries in 3 race weekends, It's not looking great for FF

[stonebridge20]

From the OP
Thanks Everyone for your input!

I just wanted to float an idea that might keep FF going as a National Championship class and give the CF a place to compete also.

I have entered 2 Majors and 1 Super Tour in a FV this year, the FF entries have been,
1 (outdated Swift)
3 (1 outdated Swift)
0
2 current FF entries in 3 race weekends, It's not looking great for FF

There are 30 FF's entered for this weekends Formula Ford Challenge Series race at VIR and it's Easter weekend. Take the top 5 guys and put them in modern cars and they'd run up front at the Runoffs.

Formula Ford is far from dead, you just need to know where to look for it.

[Mace Gjerman]

There are 30 FF's entered for this weekends Formula Ford Challenge Series race at VIR and it's Easter weekend. Take the top 5 guys and put them in modern cars and they'd run up front at the Runoffs.

Formula Ford is far from dead, you just need to know where to look for it.

Agreed!
That's why I bought a CF, the Crossflow Cup here in CA. has large fields and great racing!!!

I would like to see the same at SCCA Majors, Super Tours and the Runoffs

[Hardingfv32]

I would like to see the same at SCCA Majors, Super Tours and the Runoffs

I think the whole ethos would change if you tried CF as a class in SCCa majors, etc.

I assume there is nothing preventing new design and builds of CF's. A 30-40 year old design should have room for improvement. What is that going to cost? Would SCCA spec everything out to control costs? Still what would a new spec CF cost?

The Honda engine was brought into FF for a reason. Will those reasons be valid for CF?

I do not see how you do not end up in the same situation as FF.

Brian

[Roland V. Johnson]

In my opinion the reason the Honda was brought in was bogus. It supposedly was supposed to save the class..........really? How are the fields now? The Ford engine is still keeping Formula Ford alive. Vintage Fords have mostly large fields. Very few people have installed a Honda in a pre-1983 chassis. Flame Away!

[andyllc]

Has anyone polled the drivers that did regularly race in FF at the Majors level in the last 5-10 years and find out why they don't anymore?
Instead of speculating, it could show a theme. Maybe it will, maybe it won't.
I don't race anymore due to finances from starting a business and having two kids all at the same time.

Can't wait to get back but when I do it will be in a different class. My options are either FE2 (easy prep at home so I can just come race and have a decent field), FC (love the cars but trying to justify if worth the expense), Vintage Atlantic (tunnels are so much fun), or older Porsche Cup car to run endurance races in things like AER and WRL, etc

[CF56]

I like the idea of CF at the Runoffs. I have a VanDiemen for Majors/Super Tour events and a Crossle for CF (both with Honda's). I ran the Road Atlanta HST a couple of weeks ago and am one of, now, two entries for the VIR HST in a week. With these kinds of fields there's no way I'll consider going to the Runoffs. I absolutely would go with a large field of CFs.
I probably will not enter HST events after this year. Just not a good value, 4 sessions over 3 days, and our Sunday race was cut short at Rd. Atlanta due to time. I'll do more FRP instead.

[Rick Kirchner]

Funny how almost EVRY endeavor where we spend money results in a flurry of texts or e-mails asking you to complete a survey. I get them from every doctor, even the Wal Mart pharmacy.

How many have ever received one from the SCCA after an event?

[Steve Davis]

Funny how almost EVRY endeavor where we spend money results in a flurry of texts or e-mails asking you to complete a survey. I get them from every doctor, even the Wal Mart pharmacy.

How many have ever received one from the SCCA after an event?

I received a brief survey from SCCA for EVERY HST event I've attended so far this year. I've also received a survey asking whether I planned to attend the Runoffs this year.

Steve, FV80

[problemchild]

Let it go!
It is amazing that people want to fight kent-Honda politics 15 years later.

FV is unique in that it is a starting class and a destination. Aside from FV, and FE2, open-wheel participation in SCCA club racing and the Runoffs is abysmal. There are many reasons for this, starting with our community's poor management, and with SCCA management's lack of interest. While I agree that watching a good vintage Formula Ford race within the Runoffs would be good, so would having a 30-car FRP field of modern FFs. I do not see the powers of SCCA management taking us in either direction. SCCA needs to find space to include EVs and exoticars and that will be the priority of the next few years.

[Phil Creighton]

There is precedent for sub-classes at the National and regional level
The old FM in FA to build the numbers particularly at regional level.
FF2000 was a sub-class of FC which was largely ex super vees at the time and numbers dwindling.

I have no idea how you would do a rules set ref modifications if CF ever got serious - we saw a lot of non manufacturer stuff back in the day!

[Lotus7]

I have no idea how you would do a rules set ref modifications if CF ever got serious - we saw a lot of non manufacturer stuff back in the day!

Just for discussion sake, is "non manufacturer stuff" an issue? FF works to a 'formula' rule set, can't anyone with fab skills make their own car (albeit one big challenge, not insurmountable, being the proof that the roll hoop is acceptable)?
cheers