Vd starter issue, grinding flywheel

[redcar9]

Learning about setting the timing caused me to use the starter a bit more than normal. Nothing crazy and didn't over heat it. Probably 5sec or so cycles and 15 total times.

It started making a loud metallic sound so I stopped. The CNC adapter was slightly loose against the starter motor. The bolts holding it to the gear box were nice and tight.

Is it in the correct orientation? The flywheel teeth look to only be about 20% engaging.
Trying the other position hits the gearbox and I would have to remove material from the starter motor.

[Lotus7]

In photo #4 it looks like you have a lot of metallic swarf in the area. If so, something's rubbing. Check with a magnet (aluminum from housing, or steel from perhaps bad engagement of pinion to flywheel). It's been a while, but I have a strong recollection that there are multiple combinations of pinion teeth count and flywheel teeth count available, perhaps yours is mismatched?

[redcar9]

In photo #4 it looks like you have a lot of metallic swarf in the area. If so, something's rubbing. Check with a magnet (aluminum from housing, or steel from perhaps bad engagement of pinion to flywheel). It's been a while, but I have a strong recollection that there are multiple combinations of pinion teeth count and flywheel teeth count available, perhaps yours is mismatched?

It looks like flywheel shavings. I will check with a magnet.

Do you have any documents on the different mounting combo?

[John Bach]

I once had a cracked bell housing. The torque of the starter was enough to widen the crack and move the starter away from the flywheel. Made a terrible racket.

[Skip Weld]

I may be counting wrong but I think I see only 9 teeth on the drive. I have never seen a 2 liter pinto with anything other than a 10 tooth pinion gear. 9 works, but not very well.
Skip Weld

[John Bach]

I believe the 10 tooth pinion works with a 110 tooth flywheel and the 9 tooth pinion works with the 132 tooth flywheel.

[tlracer]

9-tooth pinion goes with 110-tooth ring gear
11-tooth pinion goes with 135-tooth ring gear

There are occasionally some 10-tooth pinions that match the 110-tooth ring, I believe, but 9 is generally the norm.

[tlracer]

A few things to try that might help point you in the right direction...

- With the starter detached, fire the solenoid to check how far the pinion moves. From memory it's about 1/2" to 5/8"
- Once you have that measurement, manually pull the shaft into the engaged position and wedge it there (cables detached to avoid problems!)
- Offer up the starter to the mountings and see how far it overlaps the ring gear
- Verify the starter will bolt snug onto the mountings

That will at least confirm any basic issues.

Also, as per other posts, count the ring teeth to be sure they match against the 9-tooth pinion.

[Lastminuteracin]

One thing no one has asked. Did it work properly prior to now? They don't really engage very deep into the mesh of the teeth. A little looseness could cause such an issue. Especially if it allows the starter to cock out at an angle. I went through 3 pinions on my Anson till I got the adapter plate and pinion diameter right. It's more than just teeth count, the OD of the gear makes a difference in the way it meshes also.

[DaveW]

I had an issue where the starter adapter holes in the bellhousing were off (too far out) just 0.03" and when the bellhousing got hot in hot weather and expanded, the pinion gear skipped teeth and ate up the flywheel.

[redcar9]

9-tooth pinion goes with 110-tooth ring gear
11-tooth pinion goes with 135-tooth ring gear

There are occasionally some 10-tooth pinions that match the 110-tooth ring, I believe, but 9 is generally the norm.

Is this going to be stamped on the flywheel?

[redcar9]

I had an issue where the starter adapter holes in the bellhousing were off (too far out) just 0.03" and when the bellhousing got hot in hot weather and expanded, the pinion gear skipped teeth and ate up the flywheel.

Oh! that could be it, the starter motor was flexing as the bolts were loose. I will try that.

[redcar9]

A few things to try that might help point you in the right direction...

- With the starter detached, fire the solenoid to check how far the pinion moves. From memory it's about 1/2" to 5/8"
- Once you have that measurement, manually pull the shaft into the engaged position and wedge it there (cables detached to avoid problems!)
- Offer up the starter to the mountings and see how far it overlaps the ring gear
- Verify the starter will bolt snug onto the mountings

That will at least confirm any basic issues.

Also, as per other posts, count the ring teeth to be sure they match against the 9-tooth pinion.

Those are good tips. I will try putting some paint to see if I can see how deep it engages.

[Lastminuteracin]

What I did was carefully pull the adapter and front housing of the starter. Not that hard. Now take the drive/ clutch assy out. Got to the exposed part of the flywheel. Tool the pinion against the teeth and see how well it meshes. That will tell you a lot. If it worked fine prior, you probably just wore down the pinion. That’s a pretty easy fix. Did it work properly prior to this?

[tlracer]

Is this going to be stamped on the flywheel?

Unfortunately not...counting is the only definite way I've ever done it.

[tlracer]

Those are good tips. I will try putting some paint to see if I can see how deep it engages.

A small inspection mirror - the ones with a long handle - are useful here.

[tlracer]

One thing no one has asked. Did it work properly prior to now? They don't really engage very deep into the mesh of the teeth. A little looseness could cause such an issue. Especially if it allows the starter to cock out at an angle. I went through 3 pinions on my Anson till I got the adapter plate and pinion diameter right. It's more than just teeth count, the OD of the gear makes a difference in the way it meshes also.

There should be full overlap between pinion and ring gears. The ring is the narrower one, at approx 3/8" deep, so the pinion should show equivalent depth witness marks.

Ensuring you buy the correct pinion for the ring gear eliminates issues of wrong diameter, eg. if it's a Ford ring, buy a Ford pinion.

[redcar9]

There should be full overlap between pinion and ring gears. The ring is the narrower one, at approx 3/8" deep, so the pinion should show equivalent depth witness marks.

Ensuring you buy the correct pinion for the ring gear eliminates issues of wrong diameter, eg. if it's a Ford ring, buy a Ford pinion.

It fully extends the pinion gear on the starter when the button is pressed. I ran it outside of the car.

I put paint on the teeth of the pinion and there isn't much overlap at all. This is on the deepest of two settings the starter has to engage with the flywheel.

Does this look okay or do I need a different starter?

[DanW]

It fully extends the pinion gear on the starter when the button is pressed. I ran it outside of the car.

I put paint on the teeth of the pinion and there isn't much overlap at all. This is on the deepest of two settings the starter has to engage with the flywheel.

Does this look okay or do I need a different starter?

Again, how many teeth on the flywheel?

135 tooth ring gear requires a 10 tooth pinion.
110 tooth ring gear requires a 9 tooth pinion.

[DaveW]

It fully extends the pinion gear on the starter when the button is pressed. I ran it outside of the car.

I put paint on the teeth of the pinion and there isn't much overlap at all. This is on the deepest of two settings the starter has to engage with the flywheel.

Does this look okay or do I need a different starter?

When I set my starter pinion radial engagement depth, I set it up to be so close that when everything is cold (closest situation) the pinion barely clears the ring gear teeth to engage. Any closer radially and it would not be able to engage (fore-aft) at all.

This positioning takes a bit of trial and error to obtain, but, IMO, is the optimal situation.

[tlracer]

It fully extends the pinion gear on the starter when the button is pressed. I ran it outside of the car.

I put paint on the teeth of the pinion and there isn't much overlap at all. This is on the deepest of two settings the starter has to engage with the flywheel.

Does this look okay or do I need a different starter?

That overlap looks okay to me. If you measure the witness marks on the pinion they should be at least the same width as the ring gear.

You do need to check the tooth-count on the ring gear, to be sure it matches with the pinion, ie:

9-tooth pinion goes with 110-tooth ring gear
11-tooth pinion goes with 135-tooth ring gear

As DaveW says, setting the engagement depth is a bit of an art form...I work on the 'resting' gap based on:

Resting gap = Starter throw - Ring gear width

That will give you the maximum gap for complete overlap. Ideally you want the gap to be slightly smaller to avoid excessive wear to any lead-in chamfer on the pinion.

However don't make the gap too small, in case the starter pinion 'walks' when the engine's running, to prevent it catching on the ring.

[redcar9]

That overlap looks okay to me. If you measure the witness marks on the pinion they should be at least the same width as the ring gear.

You do need to check the tooth-count on the ring gear, to be sure it matches with the pinion, ie:

9-tooth pinion goes with 110-tooth ring gear
11-tooth pinion goes with 135-tooth ring gear

As DaveW says, setting the engagement depth is a bit of an art form...I work on the 'resting' gap based on:

Resting gap = Starter throw - Ring gear width

That will give you the maximum gap for complete overlap. Ideally you want the gap to be slightly smaller to avoid excessive wear to any lead-in chamfer on the pinion.

However don't make the gap too small, in case the starter pinion 'walks' when the engine's running, to prevent it catching on the ring.

How do you set the gap / depth? I would have to machine down the aluminum CNC adapter block or make a big spacer.
Asked the previous owner and its 9 tooth pinion / 110 tooth ring gear.

[Rick Kirchner]

A while back I asked the community for the dimension between the back of the ring gear and the back of the block, and I got measurements between 1 3/8 and 1 5/16.

Then I mocked it up with a stock flywheel and a crank and block I had laying around and it was only 5/8! The stock flywheel by the way, had the block side of the teeth nearly worn off.

Trying to figure out why that would be the case.

In the UK, I believe they use a stock flywheel? its here in the US we lighten the daylights out of them. The majority of the mass in the rim is on the side facing the block, so as you machine that off the gear has to move forward - a bunch.

That means less engagement in a race set-up.

I'm betting the worn teeth on the stock flywheel is from the bendix throwng the gear all the way to full engagement until it bottoms on the ring gear, but that's just a guess.

[Lastminuteracin]

Everything you show looks pretty good. Have you tried just tightening up the loose adapter bolts, reinstalling and see if the problem or abnormal noise is fixed?

[DaveW]

...As DaveW says, setting the engagement depth is a bit of an art form...I work on the 'resting' gap based on:

Resting gap = Starter throw - Ring gear width....

I didn't address setting the axial engagement depth, only the radial spacing. Good that you got into that.

[redcar9]

A while back I asked the community for the dimension between the back of the ring gear and the back of the block, and I got measurements between 1 3/8 and 1 5/16.

Then I mocked it up with a stock flywheel and a crank and block I had laying around and it was only 5/8! The stock flywheel by the way, had the block side of the teeth nearly worn off.

Trying to figure out why that would be the case.

In the UK, I believe they use a stock flywheel? its here in the US we lighten the daylights out of them. The majority of the mass in the rim is on the side facing the block, so as you machine that off the gear has to move forward - a bunch.

That means less engagement in a race set-up.

I'm betting the worn teeth on the stock flywheel is from the bendix throwng the gear all the way to full engagement until it bottoms on the ring gear, but that's just a guess.

I think this is what is going on. The wrong adapter was being used. I had to remove material from the starter to get deeper teeth engagement. By rotating the starter closer to the engine block. There is still an issue. Here is a video / pics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dkty5ovwLRE
Link to high resolutions pictures.
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/dmjgj...nwjk0h1pq&dl=0

[Lastminuteracin]

You need to change the gear for sure. Search for metroautoinc and denso osgr light duty gear. They have a huge selection of gears (and parts) for these things with dimensions. The prices are great (about $7 per gear) and good service. Pick up a spare too. Alternatively send it to Mr Bushman as quoted earlier. He'll fix the whole thing up and bulletproof the electrical at a very fair price. He too will send you a complete extra clutch/drive gear ready to install as a spare.

[redcar9]

In photo #4 it looks like you have a lot of metallic swarf in the area. If so, something's rubbing. Check with a magnet (aluminum from housing, or steel from perhaps bad engagement of pinion to flywheel). It's been a while, but I have a strong recollection that there are multiple combinations of pinion teeth count and flywheel teeth count available, perhaps yours is mismatched?

it was magnetic, pinion and flywheel are also both magnetic.

[Lastminuteracin]

One thing I didn't mention is they make gears that are longer in the teeth. That machined step on the end is the extra distance you need. There are gears that stick out further. Don't cut or mill anything till after you talk to Mark. He will have what you need.
Here is a link to the various gears available.
http://www.metroautoinc.com/new//ima...BG-S026%20.pdf

[tlracer]

In your picture IMG_8456 the lead-in chamfer on the ring gear can be seen (facing left in the picture). Does this face towards the engine or the gearbox? If it's facing towards the gearbox, then the ring gear is fitted the wrong way around. This works with the equivalent chamfer on the pinion, to allow them to mesh smoothly.

Looking at the other pictures, I'm pretty sure this is the problem:

The starter sits alongside the engine itself, so it fires AWAY from the engine. For this to work cleanly, the ring gear chamfer faces towards the 'engine side' of the flywheel.

From what I can see, the chamfer on your ring gear faces towards the clutch side of the flywheel? As the lead-in chamfer is away from the starter direction of travel, this is why the starter doesn't mesh properly. It would also explain the wear on the ring gear.

[redcar9]

In your picture IMG_8456 the lead-in chamfer on the ring gear can be seen (facing left in the picture). Does this face towards the engine or the gearbox? If it's facing towards the gearbox, then the ring gear is fitted the wrong way around. This works with the equivalent chamfer on the pinion, to allow them to mesh smoothly.

Looking at the other pictures, I'm pretty sure this is the problem:

The starter sits alongside the engine itself, so it fires AWAY from the engine. For this to work cleanly, the ring gear chamfer faces towards the 'engine side' of the flywheel.

From what I can see, the chamfer on your ring gear faces towards the clutch side of the flywheel? As the lead-in chamfer is away from the starter direction of travel, this is why the starter doesn't mesh properly. It would also explain the wear on the ring gear.

I took more pictures and marked the engine side with blue tape. I'm not sure which side is which on image IMG_8456
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/dmjgj...nwjk0h1pq&dl=0

[redcar9]

Talked to Marc today, his vote was to count the teeth. I have the spark plugs out, but how do you turn over the engine?

Normally it's on the front crankshaft bolt, but I can't get access. Only bolt is on the camshaft pulley.

[Purple Frog]

Put the trany into 4th gear and turn one wheel while the other is blocked.

Counting teeth is tough. I used to mark every 10th tooth to try to keep track. When I was doing it often I could just look at the ring and tell you.

Looking closer at those pictures... I'm starting to believe you are going to learn how to split a car, remove a flywheel, order a new ring gear, get it welded on, rebalance the flywheel, and reinstall. With a new pinion gear also.

Only good news is that its easy to count the teeth when the flywheel is on the bench.

[tlracer]

I took more pictures and marked the engine side with blue tape. I'm not sure which side is which on image IMG_8456
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/dmjgj...nwjk0h1pq&dl=0

It shows more clearly now you have indicated the engine side. IMG_8484 shows the chamfer very clearly, facing away from the engine side, when it should be towards it.

Both pinion and ring have a matching chamfer on the leading edge of the teeth, to help them mesh cleanly. Because your ring gear has been fitted the wrong way around, the pinion is sometimes hitting onto the ring gear teeth, damaging both.

Remedy is to split the car, remove the flywheel and have a new ring gear fitted (110 tooth) with the lead-in chamfer facing the engine side. Replace the starter pinion also (9 tooth):

https://www.motoelectrical.co.uk/pro...enso-starters/

The pictures in this link show the pinion chamfer very clearly - the lead of each tooth is ground back at an angle.

[redcar9]

It shows more clearly now you have indicated the engine side. IMG_8484 shows the chamfer very clearly, facing away from the engine side, when it should be towards it.

Both pinion and ring have a matching chamfer on the leading edge of the teeth, to help them mesh cleanly. Because your ring gear has been fitted the wrong way around, the pinion is sometimes hitting onto the ring gear teeth, damaging both.

Remedy is to split the car, remove the flywheel and have a new ring gear fitted (110 tooth) with the lead-in chamfer facing the engine side. Replace the starter pinion also (9 tooth):

https://www.motoelectrical.co.uk/pro...enso-starters/

The pictures in this link show the pinion chamfer very clearly - the lead of each tooth is ground back at an angle.

Ugh, I was afraid of this. Thanks. If you have any info on splitting the car please share.

Thanks so much for looking at my hot mess.

[tlracer]

Ugh, I was afraid of this. Thanks. If you have any info on splitting the car please share.

What car do you have? I'm sure there will be other owners on here who can share specifics, but basically:

- Remove the battery & disconnect any electrics that go between the chassis and the engine/gearbox assembly
- Disconnect hydraulics that do likewise
- Depending the model of car, it may be easier to detach the entire rear end including the engine, then roll that out of the chassis

You can then split the engine from the bellhousing casting and get access to the flywheel assembly. Even though your ring gear is welded, it should be easy enough to grind those off (remove the clutch first, and separate the flywheel from the engine).

Once the welds have been removed, heat the ring gear to expand it and separate it from the flywheel - some of them just drop off, others need a certain amount of persuasion!

Fitting a new ring gear is the reverse - if you can cool the flywheel as well as heat the ring gear that will help fitting. Before fitting, check at least two dozen times that you have it facing correctly...you don't want to go through it all again!

The rest is pretty much the reverse of pulling it apart. First time is the worst...but that's true for a lot of things!

[BeerBudgetRacing]

It shows more clearly now you have indicated the engine side. IMG_8484 shows the chamfer very clearly, facing away from the engine side, when it should be towards it.

Both pinion and ring have a matching chamfer on the leading edge of the teeth, to help them mesh cleanly. Because your ring gear has been fitted the wrong way around, the pinion is sometimes hitting onto the ring gear teeth, damaging both.

Remedy is to split the car, remove the flywheel and have a new ring gear fitted (110 tooth) with the lead-in chamfer facing the engine side. Replace the starter pinion also (9 tooth):

https://www.motoelectrical.co.uk/pro...enso-starters/

The pictures in this link show the pinion chamfer very clearly - the lead of each tooth is ground back at an angle.

When I replaced the flywheel on my 94 I bought the ring gear from JAE http://www.jaeparts.com/ (partly because they are 2 miles away). I believe it was 110 tooth and they camfer BOTH sides.

Before splitting the car get a camera or some other way to get a good visual to make sure the ring gear is wrong.

Other that that, splitting the car is NOT a big deal. I think I did it 4 times in 6 months one year!

[BeerBudgetRacing]

What car do you have? I'm sure there will be other owners on here who can share specifics, but basically:

- Remove the battery & disconnect any electrics that go between the chassis and the engine/gearbox assembly
- Disconnect hydraulics that do likewise
- Depending the model of car, it may be easier to detach the entire rear end including the engine, then roll that out of the chassis

You can then split the engine from the bellhousing casting and get access to the flywheel assembly. Even though your ring gear is welded, it should be easy enough to grind those off (remove the clutch first, and separate the flywheel from the engine).

Once the welds have been removed, heat the ring gear to expand it and separate it from the flywheel - some of them just drop off, others need a certain amount of persuasion!

Fitting a new ring gear is the reverse - if you can cool the flywheel as well as heat the ring gear that will help fitting. Before fitting, check at least two dozen times that you have it facing correctly...you don't want to go through it all again!

The rest is pretty much the reverse of pulling it apart. First time is the worst...but that's true for a lot of things!

I would add taking it to a machine shop for balancing.... Normally not needed but a few oz of weld may create an unwanted effect.

[SteveG]

If you're your own prep shop, I would look at splitting the car as a learning experience. Allow extra time the first time.
When I rebuilt my Swift, I had to split the car twice before I got it out on the track the first time and once after. It is part of owning a semi modern car.
My only advice is get quick disconnects for at minimum the brake and clutch lines, saves quite a bit of time not having to bleed everything after reassembly. Personally I recommend Aeroflow (https://aeroflowperformance.com/) Be aware they are down under so planning ahead is a must because it takes a couple of week to get parts.

Steve

[redcar9]

Does this look like a good center point to balance gearbox / oil box?