Offy Powered '60s-'70s Sprint and Indy Roadsters

[Robert J. Alder]

A friend of mine noticed many years ago that these Offy powered cars sometimes had exhaust on the left side of the car but other times it was on the right side of the car. Back then he had a opportunity to ask AJ Foyt about this. AJ said the heads were symmetrical so they could be mounted either way depending on the type of racing or the desired location of intake and exhaust.. He's long wondered if AJ was just pulling his leg.

What say those at ApexSpeed who know about such things?

[E1pix]

Presuming you mean ‘50s’ and ‘60s’ Roadsters, as I think the last Roadster that qualified (at Indy anyway) was Jim Hurtubise’s Mallard in the late ‘60s.

It seems reasonable that stagger variances vs heat from the exhaust exits, or more likely when going from dirt to oval, could affect which side to run exhaust.

I believe there were still dirt races on the schedule until about 1970, so one would think one side or the other might get more or less dirt on the pipes, so perhaps it was partly a cooling or breakage issue. And what about refueling, or even Aero?

All are mostly guesses admittedly, and apologies for not being very definitive as you seek.

Another forum I frequent likely does have more period Indy car historians, but with more dirt flying than here it may not be worth the effort. Which is partly why I’m here, this place is far more civil.


Paging Gokart Mozart and Steve Zemke…

[Peter Olivola]

Since the Offy was a monoblock design I think AJ was pulling your leg.

[t walgamuth]

I don't know but I believe it is probably true. I doubt AJ would lie about that. I did read recently that Smokey Yunick had one built up with the rotation opposite so the torque would cause the car to lean into the turn when gas applied.

[S Lathrop]

The Offy cylinder block and crank case were separate parts. The block was symmetrical so it could be mounted on the block either end at the front.

As a kid, I got to work on what was called the champ cars. both roadsters and dirt cars. 2 of those cars are in the Speedway Museum collection.

[pakracer]

Yes, the block can fit on the crankcase either way, with a little modification. the block fits on the crankcase either way, altho you would have to drill and tap three extra holes to attach the front gear tower. It's not required to change the rotation of the engine. Since the block and head is one piece casting and the block to crankcase fitment is symmetrical and the front gear tower is attached to the block with three bolts it's an easy change.

[R. Pare]

One of the interesting things about that engine is how many were made from welded-together cylinder/head halves that were band sawed from blown engines! Howard Millican made a fair living from supplying pieced-together cylinder cases for sprint car guys. One of the best engines ever made.

[E1pix]

One of the interesting things about that engine is how many were made from welded-together cylinder/head halves that were band sawed from blown engines!

I’ve read that many times, but it blows me away a little more each time.

[grapefarmeral]

I don't remember which side the exhaust was, but I do remember the sound...magical

[Rick Kirchner]

That, and the 4-cam ford without a blower. Years ago I was at a vintage event at California Speedway and the vintage indy cars took to the oval. The guy that used to own the Riverside museum (RIP) took one of Gurney's eagles out - probably a 1970-ish model - wedge body with no rear wing.

I was working on my car so I was kind of absorbed and then I heard that sound - that took me right back to my childhood sitting in the north chute bleachers during qualifying.

[steve zemke]

Presuming you mean ‘50s’ and ‘60s’ Roadsters, as I think the last Roadster that qualified (at Indy anyway) was Jim Hurtubise’s Mallard in the late ‘60s.

It seems reasonable that stagger variances vs heat from the exhaust exits, or more likely when going from dirt to oval, could affect which side to run exhaust.

I believe there were still dirt races on the schedule until about 1970, so one would think one side or the other might get more or less dirt on the pipes, so perhaps it was partly a cooling or breakage issue. And what about refueling, or even Aero?

All are mostly guesses admittedly, and apologies for not being very definitive as you seek.

Another forum I frequent likely does have more period Indy car historians, but with more dirt flying than here it may not be worth the effort. Which is partly why I’m here, this place is far more civil.

Paging Gokart Mozart and Steve Zemke…

Great sound from the Offy, almost as beautiful as the Novi. Don''t have a clue about the exhaust

[E1pix]

Thanks, Steve.

That, and the 4-cam ford without a blower. Years ago I was at a vintage event at California Speedway and the vintage indy cars took to the oval. The guy that used to own the Riverside museum (RIP) took one of Gurney's eagles out - probably a 1970-ish model - wedge body with no rear wing.

I was working on my car so I was kind of absorbed and then I heard that sound - that took me right back to my childhood sitting in the north chute bleachers during qualifying.

That’s just cool. The Offys were a bit flat compared to the Ford, but Man… the Foyt motor was Gold!

Then about 1978, the Cosworth brought the end to the Offy… but twas a fine swap indeed.

[Steve Demeter]

Ford sold their race engine business to AJ so I am guessing that the ford 4 cam was the same as the Foyt engine.

At least in Mark Donohue's book that is how he relates it to the 2970 Lola Ford (Foyt0

Anyway they ALL sounded GREAT

[S Lathrop]

One of Jim Hurturbise first rides in a Champ Cars was in a dirt car owned by Racing Associates. My dad was a founding member of that group. The car had been raced by Johnny Thompson for several years and that car is in the Speedway Museum.

[E1pix]

That's very interesting and broaches a long wonder of mine — and hope it's okay to ask this, Steve.

Did this have anything to do with the Zink Indy car legacy and name (John, Ed?), into FV and FF, and the eventual re-brand as Citation?

I’ve long been curious about that story, in that so few names worked within both “big car” and SCCA circles.

[t walgamuth]

I went to indy many times as a kid then as an adult. Nearly every race since 1962 or first day of qualifying. Dad and I came in late and were there when Herk put the novi in the middle of the front row. Also remember his interview. "on the third lap I got it up in the gray a bit and had to back out of it to not hit the wall." l could hear the whistle of the novi blower on the opposite end of the track. What a thrill.

[S Lathrop]

That's very interesting and broaches a long wonder of mine — and hope it's okay to ask this, Steve.

Did this have anything to do with the Zink Indy car legacy and name (John, Ed?), into FV and FF, and the eventual re-brand as Citation?

I’ve long been curious about that story, in that so few names worked within both “big car” and SCCA circles.

All of this history pre dates my racing any cars. During my high school and college years I showed cutting horses. The name Citation is from the horse Citation, Kentucky Derby winner.

I joined SCCA in 1968 when I was working in New Your city. I got into racing in the late 1960's but my roots in racing date from the 1950's and Indy cars.

[E1pix]

Sorry Steve, I know roughly how young you are.

We sorta knew each other when I was a teen reporter — just like my mentor, Gordon S., and we three talked about this at the ‘75 Runoffs. I also painted Tim Evans’ helmet in 1976 and recall your being at Blackhawk when I delivered it, and your helping Gary Passon who’s still a dear friend when he ran the Super Vee you built. And many other chance meetings.

I was wondering about the Zink family’s history, reasons, etc. in switching from Indy to SCCA, presuming it’s indeed the same family.

[Rick Kirchner]

IIRC, the Ford/Foyt engines had heads that could be flipped over, so you could have the intakes on the sides and the exhaust out the top with the "bundle of snakes" headers (naturally aspirated era) or you could have the intakes in the middle and the exhausts underneath (turbo era).

At the Trench Shoring shop/museum in SoCal there's a Grant King sprint car with a 4-cam Ford that Al Unser drove. And Tom Malloy also owns the rights and all the tooling for the Novi engines, which are built at Ed Pink's shop (he owns that too).

[S Lathrop]

Sorry Steve, I know roughly how young you are.

We sorta knew each other when I was a teen reporter — just like my mentor, Gordon S., and we three talked about this at the ‘75 Runoffs. I also painted Tim Evans’ helmet in 1976 and recall your being at Blackhawk when I delivered it, and your helping Gary Passon who’s still a dear friend when he ran the Super Vee you built. And many other chance meetings.

I was wondering about the Zink family’s history, reasons, etc. in switching from Indy to SCCA, presuming it’s indeed the same family.

Ed Zink's Indy car involvement was after my oval track work with the Z14 FSV. The Z14 was build from the Z11 which was ED Zink's design. I designed a new chassis that was aluminum but used Zink's design for the engine bay and the front bulkhead. I came up with the a roll cage design for the dash and main hoop, that was adopted by SCCA in 1984, as part of the Z14 chassis. The tub design was a inspired by what Lola did for their FSV. The roll "cage" design was inspired by the crash that a friend of mine lost his life in at Mid Ohio.

As far as suspension design is concerned, Ed Zink was my teacher. Other's helped me build from that base. Especially Chuck Mathews.

[Robert J. Alder]

So, it seems all Offys had an integral, one-piece casting Head & Cylinder "block" which could be fitted either way. As did "Ford/Foyt's engines." [An Offy knock-off or just a Foyt "prepped Offy?]

Rick Kirchner says, "IIRC, the Ford/Foyt engines had heads that could be flipped over," [As was told to my friend when he talked to AJ]

pakracer says " Offy Blocks Yes, the block can fit on the crankcase either way, with a little modification. [Thus implying the the cylinder and head were one casting]

S Lathrop says, "The Offy cylinder block and crank case were separate parts. The block was symmetrical so it could be mounted on the block either end at the front. " [This also implies the "head" was part of the block.]

Thanks everyone for the usual ApexSpeed expertise. Awesome.

[E1pix]

Thanks, Steve. I still don’t know how this relates to the Zinks involved in Champ Cars in the ‘50s or ‘60s, and the name carrying into SCCA, so I’ve failed in my questions.

And you might like to know that a great friend in Ft. Wayne has taken it upon himself to caretake BJ’s grave — and has for many, many years. Massive loss, best American since Mario.

In a twist of circular irony, a friend in Mansfield bought BJ’s T342, and as a spare it came with the very same gauge plate that was bent when BJ hit none other than Gary Passon in 14, at the ‘75 Sprints. I bought it from my friend, and gave it to the friend in Ft. Wayne as a Thank You for respecting BJ’s memory.

It has no period gauges in it yet. If anyone has any inoperable, period-correct gauges to put in it, please let me know.

[S Lathrop]

Thanks, Steve. I still don’t know how this relates to the Zinks involved in Champ Cars in the ‘50s or ‘60s, and the name carrying into SCCA, so I’ve failed in my questions.

And you might like to know that a great friend in Ft. Wayne has taken it upon himself to caretake BJ’s grave — and has for many, many years. Massive loss, best American since Mario.

In a twist of circular irony, a friend in Mansfield bought BJ’s T342, and as a spare it came with the very same gauge plate that was bent when BJ hit none other than Gary Passon in 14, at the ‘75 Sprints. I bought it from my friend, and gave it to the friend in Ft. Wayne as a Thank You for respecting BJ’s memory.

It has no period gauges in it yet. If anyone has any inoperable, period-correct gauges to put in it, please let me know.

Different people. The Zink who was involved in Indy cars in the 50's and 60's was not the Ed Zink of SCCA formula car fame.

[E1pix]

Appreciate the clarity of a long wonder of mine.

Thanks Steve.

[kea]

And you might like to know that a great friend in Ft. Wayne has taken it upon himself to caretake BJ’s grave — and has for many, many years. Massive loss, best American since Mario.
.

I Still tell racing stories about him and miss him to this day.

[S Lathrop]

The current roll bar/cage rules in the GCR are a tribute to BJ. He was a great guy and a friend.

[E1pix]

I Still tell racing stories about him and miss him to this day.

Thanks, Keith.

Me, too… and think we should. Shameful loss, Man, how far he came in two or three 5000 races, 4th at RA before my wide eyes, after a 3rd at the Glen. Unbelievable.

You likely realize the dash came from Tod. He was there that tragic day, only two years after his first going to Mid-O, now over 48 years ago… shockingly. I think Tod had heard the T342 was also written off after Tod sold it, but not sure.

Weren’t there rumors of a Gurney test or ride for 1976?

I never knew BJ, but it hurts anyways. For me there was nobody that meteorically fast between Mario and… Man, I can’t think of a fair parallel since, to he honest. I’d say “Gilles,” but he was only partly “ours.”

The current roll bar/cage rules in the GCR are a tribute to BJ. He was a great guy and a friend.

Sorry for the loss, Steve. At least there’s a rule change, and hope it’s saved somebody.

I recall Tuck Thomas built a cage immediately after, and I think it’s still on the car.

Thanks to you both.


I think maybe we should all collaborate on a thread about BJ.

It’s shocking how little is online about him.

[Rick Kirchner]

I heard that the throttle stuck and the engine was still running well after the crash, a corner worker or spectator had to shut it off. He was running a magneto.

Interestingly I was having a conversation on our club facebook page with another member that runs a Lola 300 series F5000, and surprised to hear her was still running a magneto.

A crash often interrupts a circuit, leaving an open and the car shuts off. Mags are a bit more unsafe that points - very simple and reliable put takes more of a positive action to turn off the motor.

A lot of racing stuff was carryover from aviation up through the 70s. You can see a bunch of stuff on old Indy cars that was just WWII/Korea military surplus.

[E1pix]

Definitely true about it still running at full throttle. I think someone from another team actually intervened.

Poor guy lingered on a couple days afterwards. Pretty sure the lower rail broke out, and the top one didn’t. What could have been…

But I sure recall being in awe at Road America… his last F5000 race. BJ looked as good as anyone, and better than Hobbs, Schuppan, Warwick Brown, Graham McRae, Elliott Forbes-Robinson, and many others with ten-fold the experience.


EDIT: I just found this:

“B.J. Swanson, as noted, was an exceptionally talented driver.

His accident at Mid-Ohio was caused by a jammed throttle at the start of the race. The car turned sharp left into the barrier. At that time the Armco was supported by wooden posts. A post broke allowing the car to vehicle to go partially under the barrier, which is where B.J. hit his head.

The Lola then bounced off the barrier, went about 50 yards up the track and finished up under the bridge, facing the wrong way, on fire, with the throttle wide open. It was a tragic loss to American road racing. I seem to remember that a heroic rescue attempt was made by mechanic Denis Swan, who worked for Carl Hogan.

Brian Redman”

[Rick Kirchner]

As discussed several times here on Apexspeed, the very same thing (less the stuck throttle) happened to Doug Vermeer at IRP in the mid-80s. Rotten wooden post and Armco.

10 years and nothing done until another life gone. I wonder if there were others in that time span.

The pendulum certainly has swung the other way, especially when it comes to rules changes after a notable passing in the pro ranks.

[E1pix]

I didn’t mean to derail your thread Bob, but hope you can appreciate the gravity here.

There’s still some of us who witnessed BJ in his short life, and mourned his horrible loss, and honestly this was the first opportunity to discuss him that I’ve ever seen anywhere online.

[Steve Demeter]

IIRC, BJ Swanson's crash also instigated the use of the master switch. Ar great improvement in safety that cost very little